riddle me this

[mercuryblues]

When Giffords was shot and 6 others murdered; no one had any qualms about how the right wing teabaggers fed into Laughner's delusions. Particularly Palins don't retreat, reload post with Gifford's name in cross hairs. Her opponent in the election had a fundrasier with this ad:

Get on target for Victory in
November help remove
Gabrielle Giffords from
office Shoot a fully
automatic M16 with Jesse
Kelly

Combined with his rightwing rantings and the culture that surrounded him and his mental illness there is no doubt what led to this tragedy.

Onto
Jim Adkisson, who shot up an Unitarian Universalist Church, killing 2 and wounding 7. His hatred of Liberals combined with his rightwing views were his stated motivation. His reading list consisted of "Liberalism is a Mental Health Disorder" by radio talk show host Michael Savage, "Let Freedom Ring" by talk show host Sean Hannity, "100 People Who are Screwing up America" by Bernard Goldberg; and "The O'Reilly Factor," by television talk show host Bill O'Reilly.

No one denied that combined with his mental illness combined with the culture he chose to surround himself with, led to this tragedy.

So why is it when a shooter kills women, leaves ample rantings to verify that his hatred of women motivated his actions; is it any reason but? He killed men, yes he did because they would get in the way of his plans and they were getting the sex from women that he thought he was owed. The culture that he surrounded himself with, must not be questioned. If it is, it is to be derided as insignificant. It must be catagorized as "political" motivation to advance a "certain agenda" Other motives are assigned..off his meds, women are biologically disposed to seek out the "bad boys" because of ovaries or something, (this is not only repugnant but stupid because if you believe this, the killer was the ultimate "bad boy" and therefore women should have been throwing themselves at him.) But, but, he was a racist - yes he was also that. He thought other races were beneath him, yet they were getting the sex he though he was owed. Just like the example above there was a subset of grievances by the killers. Never was the root cause ignored in favor of a minor subset like he was denied an amusement park ride when younger because he was not tall enough.

Just stop it. He hated women straight up and that was his main motivation for killing. He sought out groups and yes, most likely movies that validated his views, just like the men in the examples above. He left reems of proof that his hatred and warped views about women were the root cause that motivated his rampage. I guess that is to be ignored in favor of the other, smaller things he was offended by.

[mopinko]

1. i think the trouble with all this is that sexism is personal.

its easy to stick up for and call for fairness for those people over there. but how people feel about women is about moms, sisters, wives, that is very different.
especially moms i think.

it goes so deep in the psyche, and comes from another place.

like gloria steinem used to say, its the only form of oppression where the victims sleep with the oppressors.

i've asked many an asshole if they kiss their mother with that mouth. that is not a capricious choice of words.

[seabeyond]

9. its the only form of oppression where the victims sleep with the oppressors.

..... hm.

i do like that woman. i do. i am gonna have to do an op. steinems words....

[mopinko]

12. gloria saved my life.

i found "i was a playboy bunny" about the time i had a job where i didnt wear any pants.
a jacket, glorified underpants, opaques, heels, and a blouse that was as invisible as possible.

at least they didnt let the customers grope. the musicians, well, um, uh.......

but i had my ms magazine iron on tshirt till you could see right through them.
when i made buttons i did fish/bicycle joke, and man did i take shit for it.

sigh. refighting the whole damn thing, from the 60's on.

i hate it.

[seabeyond]

14. ya. but. we are that good and the youngers are that much better and smarter. fuckin a blast.

i was a tad later. mine was more that we were all there and rejoicing just on the entry of the bulimia, drug rape, aids, .....

i probably had the most free, accepting, non worrying time. at the very bottom of the hill. we started going up the mountain with aids. i watched the first report on that and was like.... fuck. thinking thru the list.

i watched the first show on date rape drug and said, that is what happened.

interesting.

[redqueen]

2. Chris Hayes pointed this out too.

I don't know the reason but at this point I don't even care. It just has to stop.

Just keep hammering on it. More people are waking up to this every day.

[seabeyond]

10. and you know. it is not like we can stop talking about it. cause it is killing our girls. and

women and .... in this instance.... our boys. right?

so we say. done with du. fuck that.

done in real life. fuck that.

it is not an option.

so. fuck that.

[redqueen]

16. I've been saying the backlash will get worse before things get better.

I stand behind that.

But our voices can't falter, they have to get stronger. And I see that happening everywhere.

[seabeyond]

17. i do too. i really do. i see it with your kids... nt

[ismnotwasm]

3. I don't know

But people who argue that misogyny didn't play a part, I think have at least a touch of it themselves

[seabeyond]

11. again. a week or less. when??? later. even that is going nowhere anymore. you know why?

cause when the asses started that ALL of us started saying fuck that shit.

and look what happened. nipped that little pile of shit excuses in the ass real quick.

lets us know.
speak out.

dog. (this is fuggin funny). pavalov?s dog. du. if there was no reward .... none, for speaking out. we would not be doing it. when the reward is, that we see it is effective. jsut like a dog..... just LIKE a DOG, we will continue that behavior repeatedly.

very interesting.

[Flatulo]

4. Who is actually claiming that hatred of women was not the primary cause of his rampage?

Is it people on DU, or other notables?

Seems pretty clear to me. Yeah, he had a whole list of grievances, but women seemed to be the lowest common denominator.

[mercuryblues]

5. read it and weep

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025009407

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025008220

He killed more men than women, so he hated men more. He had a whole list of grievances along with his hatred for women = those are equally important. Yes not being able to win the lottery is just as important. Being refused to go on an Amusement park ride has just as much weight in his murderous rampage. Completely ignoring he hated the men because women would have sex with them and not him.

The guy was evil and driven by hate.

Ultimately all of that is crap. It was, as always, just a lone sociopath doing what sociopaths do. The guy was evil and driven by hate. His excuse is as relevant as the excuses offered by passionate Nazis, it's not worthy of discussion. = because his motivation was hatred of women it is not important to discuss.

I'm not disputing that he hated women. He clearly did. But he also hated men who were sexually active. He was a crazy nutjob, not the posterboy for anti-misogyny. = someone doesn't know what misogyny means. More like redefines it to mean something other than hatred of women.

So many more on just those 2 threads alone. Every excuse is trotted out to diminish his hatred of women as the root cause.

[Flatulo]

6. I would actually go so far as to suggest that he was indeed

a potential poster boy for misogyny.

I must say, though, that this horrible incident has opened my eyes to just how pervasive this MRA stuff is on the net. My son had mentioned it to me a few times, but I never looked at those sites myself. Well, now I have, and it's quite shocking. The bile on those venues is indistinguishable from Rodgers' screed.

If even one iota of good can come from this, perhaps it will be that some light gets shined onto these dark places. This should be treated as hate speech, pure and simple. And speech that incites others to violence shouldn't be tolerated.

[mercuryblues]

7. just to clarify

I did not mean the men that died were less important then the women. Only the trivial stuff thrown up like being refused the ride, not winning the lottery etc.

Just like the other cases, he had a hate and looked for places to justify his hatred. He did not have to look far to find plenty.

What some people call hate speech, others call freedom of speech.

[Flatulo]

15. I understand. He had quite a few broken parts that came together in a perfect storm, but hatred

of women was the common theme underlying his breakdown and subsequent rampage.

I'm aware that restricting speech in any way is a very difficult and sensitive proposition, and I'm normally the first person to scream in defense of objectionable words. But the speech in question here is causing direct, measurable harm to people. These sites are saying in plain English, 'Go forth and terrorize and kill women'. Maybe one way to deal with it would be to allow civil litigation to commence against site owners who allow - no, encourage such speech to be posted on their property. Say anything you like, but take responsibility for the damages that ensue. This would be somewhat analogous to screaming FIRE in a theatre and having people be trampled to death in the ensuing panic.

[seabeyond]

13. this is not a du issue. people claiming this was nationwide. and nationwide attacked that

talking point.

[seabeyond]

8. you know what mercury. a week later and it has reached my two older teen boys,

who never see this shit in their life, cause they are so sheltered and have chosen well, what is in their world. who is in their world. they listened. they knew,.. they support. they even speak. they can challenge me in their speak out. i respect their speak out. i insist on their speak out. i learn so much. makes me smarter. more capable of seeing. of course i want what they have to say, ... disgressed.

they are seeing it in their own personal world, in their own time and space. and sitting here thinking about it. these boys are talking about it. with each other. all these years. a mention here and there. but not wanting to over whelm. and all these years the boys saying.,..... ya, but it has always been this way. and then they would go into an intellectual discussion that was about derailing, lol. you know. and i would let it go. cause it is theirs to do.

i have an oldest. in university. grounding. and getting awesomely strong and confident. he is connecting with his first young woman. getting her education and toward dermatology. smart young woman. raised by a strong police woman.

i listen to my son now. and then my 16 yr old here and how he is seeing it. it is really sinking in, all on their own, that there really really is a problem here. my 22 yr old niece sittin here watching shows with us. her reaction to the sexism in the shows. finally i have someone i look to, and see her react. so ya. ok. not just me.

we are watching psych, located in santa barbara. (love the show). a couple nights ago, in season 5. in santa barbara. a man having a seminar for young men. scene, ... i say PUA? both son and niece said, whats pua

i did not want to go into it, watching a show. next scene. pua. next scene, ... it IS pua and there he is, teaching the young men how to "seduce" (and that word makes me want to vomit. hearing people use it, explain it and tell me i am suppose to be all into having that done).

by the third time. and the third time the kids said, whats pua. i said. pua shooter in santa barbara.

and they are all saying.... wow. and sure enough. we literally watched a show of it. in different ways. but it was thru out the show. like a perfect fuggin lesson. you know?

a week later. i like the the collective conscious of where we are going. i am good with it.

[mercuryblues]

18. I hear ya

I talk to my daughter and she is appalled by some of the things she hears. Enough so she will speak out then and there. She surrounds herself with people who will support her, not bring her down. In return, she does the same. When she responds to some of the crap she hears, she also has the backup chorus in support. With her job, she is mostly in charge of men. So she is getting a lot of them to see and realize the BS.