I have to get this off my chest

[RobertEarl]

Quit your whining.

There, I said it. I am sorry but all this "I'm leaving DU" and the sort of posts about quitting are just no good. No damn good.

What? You thought because you supported Bernie and posted on DU that the establishment was going to roll over and quit screwing us?

The screwing has been going on so long there are 10 whole generations living in the same house of fail that Bernie is trying to rebuild.

Politics is not like a ball game where the winner gets all the glory and it's over. Politics is life. Life goes on and on and on.

Get over it and get to work.

[silvershadow]

1. Cool. Not whining. And not over yet. nt

[Baobab]

9. OP you just dont realize the stakes or the differences between the two

If you did - you would not say what you did.

Unless you live on some other planet, the outcome of this race is important to you.

So- stop whining!

[RobertEarl]

21. Welcome to DU, Baobab

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Can you be more precise?

[Rebkeh]

2. I think people should go where they feel they make the most difference

If that place is no longer DU, then go.

I don't plan to stick around too long in a circle jerk echo chamber, my energy (and money) would be better spent elsewhere. I'm interested in progress and if they silence, drive out or tombstone all Bernie folks, there will be no progress from here.

If DU gets to be like that after the convention, I see no reason to stay, regardless of who wins. If they, Skinner included, want DU to be all Clinton, all day, every day... then what purpose would DU serve? A place to bash republicans? No, thank you.

Who knows what plans they have. All I know is that at some point, if you are no longer welcome to have your own opinion, that you must conform or leave, there's no reason to stay. None.

At least for me.

[RobertEarl]

3. If you can't make it on DU

How can you expect to make it in real life? What I mean is DU is good for one thing, and that is to communicate with others in ways that otherwise would be impossible.

I have learned more on DU about politics and the world than anywhere else. And have read so much great stuff that has inspired me and encouraged me. DU is special. Don't ever forget that.

So when I read this stuff about quitting and how cruel DU can be, I just smh. Skinner not going to ban all of us. Sure, as part of establishment DU is going to change some, but that's where we have a voice, and with our voices make the coming changes be acceptable. 'Twas ever thus.

[Samantha]

7. You will not be tombstoned or driven out because you support Bernie

There seem to be an overabundance of people pushing that, keeping lists of those people who say they won't vote for Hillary, implying there will be a massive purge, but that is done to try to intimidate people. You don't have to say who you vote for in the General Election. Keep that information private if you want. That is what I am going to do.

So even if a person does not vote for the Democratic nominee, he or she can still come to DU; that person just can't try to derail the nominee (once that person is named at the convention or the opposition drops out), encourage a third party-run, or advocate for Trump.

That rule was established when some people tried to promote other candidates who were making third-party runs. The people who own this site didn't want it to be used for that purpose, and really can you blame them? They support Democrats and don't want to allow their DU resources to be used against the nominee the site supports.

So there is no requirement that you conform. Just observe the common-sense rules and you will be fine.

Sam

[Rebkeh]

10. You are saying two different things that cannot both be true.

Everything you just described, including keeping our votes private, is silencing us. Follow the "common sense" rules, or what exactly? What are the consequences?

The rule is don't be against the nominee, it's okay to not be for him or her - I get the nuanced difference, but it's still contrary to the claim we don't have to conform.

The name of the group is a misnomer, when I became a member I thought the D was for small "d" democratic (makes sense with the second part - underground). But it isn't, it's for Democratic Party (does not make sense with the second part).

I can vote democratic or refrain from sharing who I vote for, but what if I don't want to? Further, I can still advocate for democracy, and progressivism in general, and not vote for the nominee. That we don't have that choice here, or we must be silent, is distinctly undemocratic.

[Samantha]

12. I do not see the conflict

One can have rules at a website but one also has civil rights, which is outside the boundaries of a website. The right to vote and keep one's vote private is a civil right. You don't have to keep your vote private if you don't want to -- it is your decision. Some people will say that (they are not voting for the nominee) which only invites a lot criticism and scorn. Some people prefer to avoid that and just say nothing. What you do is your choice. Just keep in mind do not try to derail the official candidate once that person is named.

The common sense rules are do not use a website that is privately owned and supports the official Democratic nominee (meaning the person so named at the convention) to advocate for members of that website to form a third party. If you want to form a third party, do it out of the auspices of The DemocraticUnderground. Don't purloin its resources to do so. There have been people in the past who advocated for a third party here and tried to convince members to join that campaign. That is definitely against the rules. Attacking and trying to derail the official nominee of the party would be a problem as well.

Over the years, many longstanding friends have developed, and some people do not want to lose those.

I do not understand why you think you cannot advocate for democracy and progressiveness and not vote for the nominee. I feel confident in saying there are Sanders supporters who will remain at the DU but not vote for the official nominee if that is Hillary Clinton. I say that because they say it.

DU is a very expansive website with many different forums. Simply visiting those forums and learning new information is a commodity in and of itself.

The name of the website has historic importance. It was founded during the inauguration period of George W. Bush*. Many people who joined were outraged at the handing of the election to Bush* via the Supreme Court. (and many of us are STILL outraged over that). So Democrats who viewed Bush* as illegitimate found a way to gather together and discuss the whole debacle and the ascent of Bush* to the Oval House. I do not think the owners of this website would ever consider changing the name, nor would many people here want that.

I am just trying to be helpful to you in finding some ways to stay here and be comfortable. The election will be over soon and DU will go back to its normal self, which will erase a lot of the hostilities one sees now. I have been here since 2001, I am used to it, and I refuse to allow myself to be intimidated or to be provoked by interlopers trying to get members tombstoned here. So I hope I have been able to help.

Sam

[Rebkeh]

13. I'm not talking about civil rights outside the forum

It's simple:

Can we, or can we not, speak freely in DU about our preferences for candidates? If we cannot, fine. If we can, fine.

It cannot be both.

[Samantha]

14. I do and so do many others

After the nomination, don't try to derail the nominee. This is all I have coupled with what I said before.

Sam

[Rebkeh]

15. Good, and I may as well

I'm just saying let's not bullshit DU'ers with double speak and blurry logic. I want to trust DU and the admins, stuff like this does not fly with me. I'm fine with the rules, for now, but may or may not be fine with them after the GE is over. I am playing it by ear as I go along.

But don't kid yourselves, this place does not feel safe for some Bernie supporters. At times it's outright hostile - even though we are the majority.

Bernie supporters are always going to be walking on eggshells here. Tell yourselves what you will but this is the way it is.

[Samantha]

20. There is a kind of psychological warfare going on against Bernie supporters

I think the Bernie Sanders Group is a safe haven -- General Discussion-Primaries is a very difficult terrain to navigate. And you are correct -- Sanders' supporters are here in great numbers and it is a very high percentage of the overall DU population. No wonder they are trying to pick us off!

"He can't win, he can't win." "He's a socialist, no one will vote for a socialist." Threads accusing him of practicing sexism, racism. These are designed to demoralize Sanders supporters so they will just fold up their tents and go away. Bernie Sanders is a person who for decades has had a reputation for honesty and candor. He has an 86 percent approval rating in Vermont, where he attracts all kinds of voters, not just Dems, but many Independents and about 25 percent of Republicans. These people know him best, and they say they vote for him because he always tells them the truth, even if the truth is something uncomfortable.

I don't walk on eggshells. There are people who say "please don't feed the trolls." That means if someone throws out something deliberately provocative, that is a bait. Don't take the bait. Move on to something you would really like to read. Check out all the other forums listed on the left -- there might be something there that specifically interests you, for instance, photography, the environment, sports. Also visit the Lounge when you need to chill.

So take your time and explore DU and don't let anyone push you around or out. Email me if you want when you need help.

Sam

[Jack Bone]

4. It's a struggle....a very long one,

[PowerToThePeople]

5. I agree

I may well leave.

I have before when the right wing of the party had all the voice on this board.

I will not go off in a huff of GBCW OP though. And I would likely return to this forum once times allowed leftist voices back into the mix again.

[Contrary1]

6. After 40+ years of establishment-screwing, I am nowhere close to giving up.

Leaving DU has nothing to do with quitting, unless one wants it to.

[Lunabell]

8. I believe staying in the Democratic party and working from within is the best solution.

The Democratic party used to be for the middle class and that changed with the Clinton era. We need to retake our party, not start a new one.

[Rebkeh]

16. I had hoped that could be done

Not so sure now. It looks like it's going to take at least one more election before people fully understand how bad it is, maybe two.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

18. It will happen

But will take time. The old ones will drop out to replaced by young blood

[Rebkeh]

19. I agree. It's too bad though

A lot of people are hurting.

[DaveT]

11. I have always been a party loyalist

In arguments with Greens and Naderites, I said that the Democratic Party has an open primary. It is much easier to take it over than it is to win a general election.

Sanders puts my theory to the test. It looks like I was wrong as it is far easier for Bernie to win the general election than it is get the Democratic nomination. Polling is clear in that.

With the Hillary supporters gleefully mocking us about super delegates and closed primaries check mating Bernie, can we say that our party has an "open" primary?

What are we supposed to say to Naderites now?

Besides the emotionally satisfying but counterproductive chant, "It's your fault!"

[Rosa Luxemburg]

17. Well said!