OK, I'm having a problem with a Facebook friend of long standing, a Dem...

[CaliforniaPeggy]

He's accusing Bernie of being a "dodger"--a draft dodger, because of his conscientious objector status.

I am aghast at this accusation. I really have no good ideas as to how to counter his statement.

He also stated that Bernie has voted against the Democrats many times....mainly on gun control. I did point out that Bernie has a failing grade from the NRA. I left Facebook before I could see if there was any response.

I welcome your good ideas!

[virtualobserver]

1. is he a Vietnam Vet?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. Actually, I don't know if he is. Probably not. I don't think he's old enough.

[virtualobserver]

7. ok 1973 was when the draft ended. so he was not subject to it

Did he think that Bush's war in Iraq was a good thing?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

8. We've never discussed it.......but I doubt that he thinks it was good. He IS a Dem! n/t

[virtualobserver]

9. I ask that because most Dems thought that there was no reason for us to be there

if they had reinstated the draft, would he have been happy to go Iraq and fight?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

10. No idea, but I doubt it. He is also gay, which might have made a difference. I don't know.

I'm sorry, we haven't talked much about things except superficialities.

[virtualobserver]

14. They reason that I'm asking is that I believe that he has to put himself mentally in Bernie's place

Vietnam was a insane war and Bernie did not believe in it. Bernie applied to be a conscientious objector.

The reality is by the time his C.O. application was rejected he was 26 and too old to be drafted.

You cannot be a draft dodger if you were never drafted.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

15. Excellent point!

Thank you for your efforts--he is no longer responding to me, and I'm done with him.

[Enthusiast]

25. Thank you.

[merrily]

32. Interesting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/128033139

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026883780

[sabrina 1]

2. Well, there is the fact that Bernie and all those who opposed the Vietnam War were RIGHT. Good

judgement AGAIN on his part. What does your friend think of that awful War, was it justified? It is the duty of citizens to resist their government when that government is wrong.

And I applaud him for not trying to find ways to pretend he was FOR it, but just 'couldn't get there', instead again, TELLING THE TRUTH. He objected because of his conscience.

As for his vote on the gun issue, Bernie has explained that many times. I live not too far from VT, (upstate NY). I was for a few years in CA and Az. I can confirm what Bernie said re rural areas v urban and suburban areas re guns. Everyone where I live has a gun, but rarely use them. They are farmers with a lot of livestock and when their animals are threatened, coyotes etc, firing off a shot helps save their animals.

Guns are viewed a lot differently in areas like this. He has acknowledged that it is vastly different when you are talking about suburban and urban areas re guns and he is in favor of background checks.

Out of hundreds of issues and votes, if a politician votes the way you want them to 99% of the time, as Bernie has, and there is one issue on which you disagree, you're not going to get better than that.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. Good thinking! I knew this, but was so discombobulated that I couldn't verbalize it.

Thanks!

[Enthusiast]

26. We were right and they were wrong.

Then there is that whole Gulf of Tonkin thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident

[marym625]

5. He didn't dodge the draft.

Registering as a conscientious objector didn't stop anyone except the Amish (mostly) from going. He went to school, like so many did and should have. But he was 18 in 1959. I'm guessing his number never came up.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

6. OK, good point.

Thanks!

[cal04]

13. Not sure if this is accurate but by time they rejected it, he was too old

But back to Bernie: Where Obama had “community organizer” on his resume, Sanders, in the late ‘60s, a member of the anti-capitalist Liberty Union Party and Vietnam War protester, had “freelance writer, carpenter, and youth counselor.” He applied for conscientious objector status to get out of the Vietnam draft. “By the time his C.O. application was rejected,” wrote the Burlington Free Press’s Sam Hemingway, “Sanders was 26 and too old to be drafted.”

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/Felsenthal-Files/May-2015/Bernie-Sanders-University-of-Chicago

[marym625]

17. that doesn't get him out of the draft

He followed the law, registered for the draft, marked or wrote "Conscientious Objector."

He was not drafted. CO did not get people out of being drafted unless they could prove what the government felt was a legitimate reason, i.e. the Amish. If CO got people out of the draft no one would have gone to jail or Canada.

He registered. He didn't go to jail. He didn't go to Canada. He didn't go to Vietnam. He was 23 when he graduated. That left at least 2 years he was eligible. The only conclusion is, his number did not come up.

[starroute]

20. The Vietnam draft lottery didn't start until 1969

Sanders was born in 1941, so he turned 26 before the draft started.

(On edit: My recollection is that they were pretty casual about drafting people until the time of the Tet Offensive in 1968. Local draft boards had a lot of discretion and weren't all that interested in 23 year old college graduates who were inclined to think for themselves.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_lottery_%281969%29

On December 1, 1969, the Selective Service System of the United States conducted two lotteries to determine the order of call to military service in the Vietnam War for men born from 1944 to 1950. These lotteries occurred during "the draft"—a period of conscription, controlled by the President, from just before World War II to 1973.

[marym625]

21. but he still had to register for the draft

Until '69 it worked the way it had previously. MANY guys were drafted into the Vietnam war prior to 1969.

He was too old for the lottery but not too old or too young to have been drafted into the Vietnam war.

[starroute]

22. But they may not have felt resolving his CO status was urgent

My point is that local draft boards had a lot of discretion -- and they may have seen him as a potential troublemaker who just wasn't worth their time to haul in.

[marym625]

23. I'm sorry, haul in for what?

He did what the law said he had to do. He didn't do anything to be hauled in for.

The time period he was eligible to be drafted was 64/65. They were not near the peak of troops being sent to war. He was married, which, from 63 until August 65, gave you an exemption from the draft. That left only a couple months he was eligible, not in school, over 18, under 26 and married.

[merrily]

33. The lottery did not exist until 1969. And, Bernie, born in 1941, was too old for it when it began.

On December 1, 1969, the Selective Service System of the United States conducted two lotteries to determine the order of call to military service in the Vietnam War for men born from 1944 to 1950. These lotteries occurred during "the draft"—a period of conscription, controlled by the President, from just before World War II to 1973.

The lottery numbers assigned in December 1969 were used during calendar year 1970 both to call for induction and to call for physical examination, a preliminary call covering more men.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_lottery_%281969%29

He simply never got drafted.

[marym625]

34. Yes, I know and understand when the lottery began

And that it was well over 26. But the draft never stopped. It was just done differently prior to that.

Please see my reply #21

[merrily]

36. That's what my post said. The lottery had nothing to do with it. He just never got drafted.

[marym625]

37. My apologies

I misunderstood.

[merrily]

38. No apologies necessary. We can agree to agree!

[marym625]

39. LOL!

I love it!

[SoapBox]

11. Sooooo....

Has he expressed who his candidate of choice is?

Just asking because I've briefly talked to 3 different guys at work, gay, that all started off with the same thing...OH, the entire LGBT Community will be voting for "her". I did get 2 of them to actually say that they would keep an open mind for Bernie...the other one was not interested (side note...he couldn't tell me squat about her positions, etc.)

[CaliforniaPeggy]

12. Oh, yes, he is firmly, and I do mean FIRMLY in the Hillary camp.

His arguments are so specious that I am distressed.

Anyway, I'm done with him on this topic.

There is no reaching him on this.

[sabrina 1]

35. I wonder then how he felt about Republicans calling Bill Clinton a draft dodger? I believed that

Clinton was RIGHT about Vietnam and right about objecting to it.

I feel the same way about all those who did not support it and refused to go fight in it.

Chicken Hawks are entirely different, they supported it but wanted other people to go fight in it.

[SoapBox]

40. Oh....

I hate to say it...but personally I say there is no way that they can be convinced of anything they don't want to be. They are set in their ways...tier mind is set...they know what they know (fact or fiction)...and no one will get them to change their minds.

Only if there were an earth shattering "something" out of her that caused her to drop out (that of course would be someone else's fault), they then might consider switching their vote.

To me, Dems like this are as bad as wack job Tea Baggers...they will never change.

Maybe you should go with a " no religion, no politics" plan, so that you can remain friends.

It's too bad that so much of America has become self centered and ill informed.

[still_one]

16. Bernie applied for CO, but was rejected. By that time he was too only to be drafted at 26

back then. 24 was the maximum age, which eliminated him from the draft.

He did not go to Canada or run away. He is NOT a draft dodger. In fact there are only three candidates running who served in the military. Jim Webb, Lindsey Graham, and Rick Perry. The last time I looked, being in the military was not a requirement for being President.

Bernie voted for sending troops to Kosovo, and was for American engagement in Afghanistan. He voted against the gulf war, and was against the invasion of Iraq, which proved to be one of the greatest blunders the U.S. had engaged in. It destabilized the entire middle east.

The arguments present that he has not voted with the Democrats is simply untrue. It depends on the issue, and the vast number of issues, Bernie Sanders has voted with the Democrats, so you adversary is not correct:

http://www.ontheissues.org/House/Bernie_Sanders.htm

It is obvious, that the person you are arguing with is only looking at a few issues that Bernie did not vote with the Democrats, however, on some of those issues, not every Democrat voted in unison either. Again, the vast majority of issues, Bernie voted with the Democrats.

[marym625]

18. ha!

We just wrote pretty much the same thing.

However, I believe 31st that time it was 26.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

19. Thanks for your hard work looking all that stuff up for me. I appreciate it!

[mahina]

24. Ask him if medics are draft dogers.

Lots of medics were co's.

Your big advantage is that you're a sweet person and you're not going to get into a mudfight.

Whose sig line around here quotes Thomas Paine's "reasoning with someone who's put reason aside is like giving medicine to the dead" or similar?

Best to you, CP

[CBGLuthier]

27. Seems obvious that like many who support someone else he is not concerned with reality

Only with flinging mud to see if it sticks.

CO's were very much subject to the draft. Besides it was an ugly and illegal war so t be against it is a badge of pride. I believe in opposition to that war he was joined by the husband of your friend's candidate.

[n2doc]

28. I guess I would say this

Its fine if they are a Hillary supporter. It's fine if they have made up their mind and nothing will change that. But don't go around spewing made up shit about Bernie. Can they possibly see the gigantic hypocrisy in being an HRC supporter spewing RW-style lies? And using the RW trick of taking ones own weakness (Bubba being a famous 'dodger') and putting it on others? They should be ashamed.

And if they continue, say, Benghazi, and emails! That should shut them up.

[smokey nj]

29. Tell your friend that both the VFW and American Legion

have given Bernie awards for all the work he's done on behalf of veterans. Those organizations don't usually honor draft dodgers. Also, you might want to remind him about Bill Clinton being called a draft dodger back in the day.

[merrily]

31. Excellent points, smokey nj.

[merrily]

30. How did your friend feel about the fact that hero Muhammed Ali and Bill Clinton did not serve?

Last edited Mon Aug 31, 2015, 09:02 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/clinton/etc/draftletter.html

Because of my opposition to the draft and the war, I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill, and maybe die for their country, that is, the particular policy of a particular government, right or wrong. Two of my friends at Oxford are conscientious objectors. I wrote a letter of recommendation for one of them to his Mississippi draft board, a letter which I am more proud of than anything else I wrote at Oxford last year. One of my roommates is a draft resister who is possibly under indictment and may never be able to go home again. He is one of the bravest, best men I know. His country needs men like him more than they know. That he is considered a criminal is an obscenity.

The decision not to be a resister and the related subsequent decisions were the most difficult of my life. I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason: to maintain my political viability within the system. For years I have worked to prepare myself for a political life characterized by both practical political ability and concern for rapid social progress. It is a life I still feel compelled to try to lead. I do not think our system of government is by definition corrupt, however dangerous and inadequate it has been in recent years (the society may be corrupt, but that is not the same thing, and if that is true we are all finished anyway).

When the draft came, despite political convictions, I was having a hard time facing the prospect of fighting a war I had been fighting against, and that is why I contacted you. ROTC was the one way left in which I could possibly, but not positively, avoid both Vietnam and resistance. Going on with my education, even coming back to England, played no part in my decision to join ROTC. I am back here, and would have been at Arkansas Law School, because there is nothing else I can do. In fact, I would like to have been able to take a year out perhaps to teach in a small college or work on some community action project and in the process to decide whether to attend law school or graduate school and how to be putting what I have learned to use. But the particulars of my personal life are not nearly as important to me as the principles involved.

So, Bill Clinton compromised his personal principles on the altar of his personal political ambitions, but still did not subject himself to risk of combat duty. Is that more admirable than an activist who lives his principles? BTW, would your friend do away with conscientious objector laws?

Does your friend think Vietnam was a just war and colonialism a just cause?

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon2/hochiminh/

What did your friend think of Kerry's anti-war speeches and activism? http://www.democracynow.org/2004/2/20/john_kerry_then_hear_kerrys_historic

How did the Vietnam War go for the average person in the US?

Besides, being drafted is not the only way to join the US military. Since military service seems to be so important to your friend, did he or she enlist?

Who was the last Democratic President to have served in the military? Carter, elected in 1976? The one who granted amnesty to "draft dodgers?"

Would your friend do away with laws that relieve conscientious objectors of combat duty? If not, what is his or her problem with what Bernie did?

Please see also Reply 33. I don't think Bernie dodged the draft at all. I think he simply never got drafted.

BTW, someone who applied for conscientious objector status, but was denied, was the most decorated soldier of World War I; and three conscientious objectors have won the Medal of Honor.