Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumWATCH: Bernie Sanders Says 'I Don't Know' When Asked About a Major Abortion Rights Issue
Independent Vermont Senator and Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders may have run afoul of pro-choice voters when he was asked how he would deal with a major reproductive rights issue as president, and replied I dont know.
(snip....)
Are you in all concerned, though, about this idea that people may try to worry about the sex of a child, or essentially, are those types of restrictions on abortions something youre open to? Todd asked.
That, I mean, thats a concern, Sanders said as Todd was asking, then answered, haltingly, Well, thats not a, I wouldnt use a restriction on, thats an issue that society has got to deal with, and it is of concern.
How would you deal with that in the law? Todd asked.
I dont know how, at this particular point, I would deal with it, but that is an issue that we really have got to deal with, Sanders replied.
Sanders seemed unprepared for the question, and perhaps unaware that reproductive rights organizations like NARAL Pro-Choice America and Planned Parenthood uniformly oppose laws restricting abortions on the basis Todd cites for a number of reasons.
Sex-selective abortion bans are deceptive laws that exploit racial stereotypes and result in doctors questioning their patients motives and restricting entire communities from accessing care, said Planned Parenthood of New York City in opposing one such law.
Watch the clip above, via NBC.
(more....)
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/watch-bernie-sanders-says-i-dont-know-when-asked-about-a-major-abortion-rights-issue/
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cha
(297,810 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BannonsLiver
(16,508 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,467 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MustLoveBeagles
(11,658 posts)Last edited Sun May 19, 2019, 05:44 PM - Edit history (3)
And he should've been. The topic of abortion has been in the news all week due to several states adopting draconian abortion restrictions. So while this may have been a gotcha question about a issue that doesn't exist, Bernie should've been better prepared for abortion to come up during the interview. Bernie then could've called Chuck Todd on his nonsense and given an informed response instead of the lame "I don't know." I'm not trying to pick on Bernie but he could've handled this better. What in the world is going on with his campaign?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
thesquanderer
(11,996 posts)Not in the coverage I've seen, anyway. I don't know whether Sanders should have been prepared for that or not, but it is something of a "gotcha" question as a followup to someone who has just put forth a strong pro-choice position. And a ridiculous question as it is not something that can realistically be independently legislated against anyway.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MustLoveBeagles
(11,658 posts)It was Bernie's response to Chuck Todd's question that I had an issue with. He didn't handle it well at all.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
CharleyDog
(758 posts)discuss this issue either. I'm not a Berniebro, but c'mon, the election is 500+ days away, and we cannot realistically expect each candidate to have answers for everything. Perhaps, he could have said "Abortion IS healthcare" like Inslee said, that's a good answer. or "I support a woman's right to choose. It is a private matter between her, her family, and her physician/nurse practitioner."
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LuvNewcastle
(16,860 posts)The public doesn't have the right to decide if a woman is having an abortion for the right reason.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Beaverhausen
(24,472 posts)Why would he worry about it now?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)https://www.rawstory.com/2013/10/bernie-sanders-tells-ed-schultz-southern-democrats-are-tired-of-being-abandoned-by-the-party/
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
joshcryer
(62,277 posts)Actually sparked a boycott among his supporters.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)He really has NO BUSINESS trying to become our party's nominee for president of the United States.
NONE whatsoever! Zero!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)were the "establishment."
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
murielm99
(30,777 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
GeniusJoy
(30 posts)That is not even a thing. It's a RW taking point. Why did Bernie say it's an issue that has to be dealt with? It's not. The right answer is... Women do not need to give a reason to the government.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
comradebillyboy
(10,179 posts)a common practice in China and India. China ended the one child policy but big families aren't making a comeback.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lapucelle
(18,361 posts)The event also coincides with a rally in support of Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders. But the organizers say that the two rallies are unrelated to each other.
https://www.al.com/politics/2019/05/abortion-ban-protests-expected-to-draw-big-crowds.html
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
50 Shades Of Blue
(10,064 posts)Federal employees from getting abortion coverage in their health insurance.
You know, like Joe Biden did.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Nuggets
(525 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
sheshe2
(83,963 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hav
(5,969 posts)Todd, as usual, is a master baiter and I can understand being stumped by questions like this. Raising what I think is a non-topic in the US is muddying the waters. No one likes abortions simply based on the baby/fetus not having the preferred gender. But that should be totally independent of the general issue of abortion rights.
Not that it could have been answered better but this seems to be a question specifically designed to make candidates, especially pro-choice proponents, look bad: Getting forced to either propose limits to abortions or be on record to support abortions based on gender preference.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Nuggets
(525 posts)Chuck Todd is a GOP tool. Its a dumb question however, Bernie has now claimed its an important issue. Apparently answering honestly according to a comment below.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)If he contradicted the premise of the question, he didn't have to answer it at all.
But he didn't know that.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)helped the fate of girls and women there. But this is a gotcha stupid question Todd pulled to put Bernie in a bind. I am no Bernie apologist, but deplore this tactic.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)which means he's supposed to know SOMETHING about the whole range of public issues, enough to be able to point out serious issues and lines of thought like a thoughtful man without committing to solutions. This one has been discussed that entire period as medical science has advanced. Any pol should be able to slick his way through, segue to a related issue if he runs short of material.
"I don't know" has been a common answer for him, including to questions about how he would turn his campaign promises into reality. What on earth has he been doing with his time all these years? The senate is a slow, deliberative body. He doesn't fund raise for senate projects like others do, he's never been a leader, he doesn't write legislation, he doesn't negotiate deals, he's isolated and doesn't socialize with his colleagues. I've never heard of a hobby.
He also has a professional staff he could instruct to research and put together little briefings and answers for him. He can ask them to scan current issues and foresee questions, keep him up to date if browsing newspapers and occasional journals is too onerous.
I'm serious. Way too many "I don't knows." Only the first one got points for seeming refreshingly honest about his ignorance.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)And I dont particularly care for Bernie. It was a total gotcha
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)with basic knowledge of RW legislation on abortion, what does that say about a candidate's knowledge base?
Sarah Palin called, "What do you read?" a gotcha question.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ecstatic
(32,748 posts)by bringing up Bernie's "all prisoners should vote" idea, most of the candidates were able to process what was being asked and to respond accordingly. We're in the big leagues. It shouldn't be hard for a politician to listen to a question and then answer it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,715 posts)He doesn't care about choice ...and women won't benefit from his economic policies if they don't have the ability to decide when or if to give birth. Here in Ohio, they are going after birth control as well. It is an attack on women.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)What you saw was one of Bernie's best traits: honesty.
Could he use more media coaching? Yes. Should his answer have begun with "I don't know". Certainly not. However, when we think about the overwhelming numbers of abortions, especially the fact that many women who now must pursue illegal abortions live below the poverty line, you would have to do much more than show this interview to convince me that gender-selective abortions qualify as a major issue.
In fact, I echo the next part of his answer, "...that is an issue that we really have got to deal with"
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
GeniusJoy
(30 posts)It's non existent. Besides, women should not have to give a reason for why they have an abortion.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Politicub
(12,165 posts)Todd should have been challenged as to why he even asked such a ridiculous question.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)I concur that Chuck's question was in the vein of the worst gotcha queries out there but this issue will arise on the trail, if not the primary, then, the general.
The other side will try to use this as bait to portray pro-choice voters as radicals who think that there should be no limits on anything.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)forces?
The answer Sanders gave did exactly that.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)By your thinking, he should not have appeared on Faux News. Per Joe Scarborough, there are winnable voters who watch Faux.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)You are twisting yourself in knots trying to make this answer he gave some sort of 'positive,' and failing.
What other fallacies do you propose that Democrats reinforce for "flippable voters?" That there are ISIS members coming in with immigrants at the southern border?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)I haven't turned myself even 90 degrees. The facts are simple:
1) His answer was honest but inartful.
2) True or false, and this thread alone proves that voters are all over the map on this issue, we can take it to the bank that the radical right will use gender selective abortion as a wedge rebuttal when we try to assert women's health care. Wager as much money as you want on this point. It is a sure thing.
3) The job of every candidate who truly wants to win is to pursue as many voters as possible without betraying the truth. With his answer, that is precisely what Bernie did. The fact that we know this to be a false issue changes nothing in the game of politics. The other side will use this lie as a cudgel. Thus, it needs to be addressed. Besides, by saying that we have to deal with it, Sanders left himself room to deal with the fallacious aspects.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)1) His answer perpetuated an anti-choice fallacy.
It's false, and your attempt to defend a gaffe as "reaching out to 'voters all over the map' on 'this issue' is not working.
Do we also just pander to the 'radical right' when it comes to cutting the social safety net, caging immigrants or fossil fuels because they will use it as a "wedge issue?"
Again, your attempt to defend a gaffe as out to "pursue as many voters as possible without betraying the truth," is not working. He didn't know what he was talking about, but still tried to answer a question, and perpetuated a fallacy. Yes, that very much matters when a politician claims the mantle of 'feminist' and turns out not to know a basic fallacy used against women's reproductive rights.
"Socialism" will give the 'other side' more than enough to use as a cudgel. I don't see Sanders promoting RW fallacies about that. And by saying "we have to deal with it" Sanders didn't leave any room for the actual truth that it's not an issue we need to deal with.
Should we expect him to say that ISIS coming through the southern border with immigrants is "a concern" and saying "we have to deal with it" in order to 'leave himself room to deal with the fallacious aspects?"
Going from saying he was "honest but inartful" to trying to spin it as some kind of purposeful chess move by Sanders is the most desperate rationalization you've attempted on this thread.
Status quo political spin doctoring of a gaffe.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)Some voters think this is an issue and that number may grow when tRump uses it as a wedge issue. If you can't see that, there's no point in dancing around the truth. Every single aspect of my answers stands.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Some voters think that immigrants crossing the border are ISIS terrorists in disguise. Do you support Candidates saying' "That's an issue that needs to be dealt with?"
Seriously?
Stonewalling is a common defense mechanism when one's arguments are rebutted
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LibFarmer
(772 posts)A support for the Charlottesville march? That may get a few center-right votes too.
I can't believe that some BS supporters are so much into their blind support that they not only can't see the major screwups of their candidate but are out there defending the indefensible.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Joediss
(84 posts)Any presidental candidate that has one of their town halls on Fox news has lost my vote in the primarys, they are throwing fox news a life boat as far as I am concerned, while they are having trouble getting people to advertise on there.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)I have nothing but respect for Warren's decision to skip Faux on philosophical grounds. I hope that you share my respect for Sanders' decision to become a modern day Daniel in the lion's den by defying political death in confronting the danger in order to reach voters on the other side.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I doubt that there were many regular Faux viewers turned in for actual performance, and instead tuned in the next day, as always, to watch the pundits tear him to pieces using their own footage.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cha
(297,810 posts)go down after his town hall on faux?
Could be just a coincidence.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)words Chuck butt out.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)Let's hope his people read D.U.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
katmondoo
(6,457 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Nuggets
(525 posts)Im confused
Is it not an important issue?
Major Issue? My Political Calculus Differs From Yours
Or is it an important issue?
...that is an issue we really have to deal with.
And how is answering a nonsense rw talking point with this is an issue we need to deal with. being honest?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)For a politician, that's as honest as it gets.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Well, he's honest about not putting reproductive rights near the top of the list of prioritiest
Just because it's an "honest" answer doesn't mean it's one that reveals something positive.
.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Politicub
(12,165 posts)I doubt a woman would have said, I dont know.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)His answer could have been much better but I have no doubts regarding his pro-choice bona fides.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)You have been trying to give him a pass all over this thread.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Nuggets
(525 posts)No it wasnt He claimed it was an important issue that needed dealt with. Wheres the honesty in that?
Why didnt he just say the government has no business getting involved in womens health decisions?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)The title of this thread is, "WATCH: Bernie Sanders Says 'I Don't Know' When Asked About a Major Abortion Rights Issue" and I addressed that title of this thread. For a politician to utter those words points to his honesty.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Nuggets
(525 posts)that he said it was an important issue to deal with. Since it isnt and thats just a right wing talking point, that would be a lie.
By definition a lie is not honesty.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)I admitted that his answer could have been much better. No amount of tweaking will change my mind, though, that he gave an honest answer. Honesty is in short supply in our politics.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)He said, "It's a concern" when it's only a 'concern' among anti-choicers.
Trying to deflect from that the issue by saying was "honest" doesn't change that.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)Even though they're wrong, anti-choicers vote, too. Diplomacy is about the art of the possible. Winning election is similar. There are flippable Trump voters who may agree with Sanders on twenty issues but would write him off today if he dodged that question. They know he was honest.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)You mean like supporting something more doable than MFA? Haven't seen that yet...
You mean those who were watching that interview thought he was "honest" when he perpetuated the RW fallacy that mischaracterizes and slanders women, instead of saying honestly that he didn't really know much about that issue?
Can you show me any data on those Trump voters who "who may agree with Sanders on twenty issues but would write him off today if he dodged that question."
Especially the vnes that think CNN is fake news?
How do you feel if he had been informed on the issue, and been honest about how that trope is false? Do you think those voters you say exist in large numbers, watching CNN, and agreeing with him on twenty issues would have appreciated "honesty" based on actualy expertise rooted in concern for the issue of abortion?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
mcar
(42,403 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Nuggets
(525 posts)The tweaking was your own doing, by leaving out half his statement. His answer was dishonest and I clearly explained why using Sanders own words from his entire answer.
Honesty is sure in short supply from some politicians, thats for sure.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)From, "Well, he was honest, unlike other politicians," to "He was just inartful" to "He wants to reach voters on 'the other side" to "I'm only talking about the title of the article where he said "I don't know" and nothing more.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)100%+ of my answers stand. I have addressed every critique fairly and, now that I have taken incoming fire from every direction, retract any previous reservations I had about Bernie's answer. I prefer an honest politician with the capacity to do better next time every day of the week.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)100%+ of my rebuttals stand. I have addressed every mischaracterization and rationalization fairly and factually and, now that I have seen the spin veer from every direction, am more convinced that fact checking falls on deaf ears when it comes to tribal thinking.
I prefer an honest politician with the capacity to do better next time every day of the week. That would not include any politician who refuses to acknowledge that they might have something to learn, or that they may have made a mistake.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Nuggets
(525 posts)and called it honesty.
Do you just read headlines to get your news too?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)I'd suggest you check your math. I addressed all of his answer as follows:
1) He answered honestly yet inartfully.
2) Fallacious or not, the critique over gender-selective abortion will be raised by the other side. It will be employed as a cudgel. Any voters who believe otherwise have rose-colored glasses.
Bernie did not feed the misconception; he addressed it, just as he pursued a wider audience by appearing on Faux News. The last time I checked, Sanders has been criticized as unable to attract red state voters. Appearing on Faux News and answering honestly on an out-there abortion question is doing exactly what he has been criticized for failing to do.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Nuggets
(525 posts) this is an important issue that needs to be dealt with the end if the sentence you seem to have a need to separate.
The one part you keep insisting on leaving out. The part after I dont know.
The dishonest part.
He most certainly did feed the misconception by pretending it existed and is a real problem that needs looked into.
That appearing on Fox news means nothing. It is irrelevant to this conversation.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)You may quibble with his political beliefs but you haven't shown me that his answer was anything but honest. Have you heard him say that gender selective abortion is a non-issue? I have not.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Nuggets
(525 posts)looked into, hes not informed enough to be a good president. Hes no spring chicken and he cant perform under pressure.
But lets take a look
He said he didnt know, you said that was an honest answer
Now you say If That's What He Truly Believes, How Is His Answer Dishonest?
He either doesnt know or believes its an important issue that needs dealt with.
Cant be both.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)It doesn't matter what you and I believe, emphasis on "believe."
Does belief equal fact? For some voters, you bet it does!
The tactical reality is simple and as reliable as the dawn: Sanders is in this to win the White House. In order to do that, he needs to attract Obama voters who flipped to tRump. Some of them are convinced, because they vote according to how their church orders them, that this is an issue, a big one. In other words, since Sanders' job is to attract as many voters as possible without lying, he needs to tackle it.
That approach is the opposite of dishonesty. If all politics is local, then he needs to address the voters where they reside, even if their position is ridiculous. He can't guide them to the factual truth if they shut him out.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Nuggets
(525 posts)Nothing youve said changes Bernies dueling answers and your erroneous claim that hes honest.
And now youre trying to say:
Not only did he know about this important issue, he was just saying it was an important issue because he knew it was just a rw talking point, and hed have to use this on campaigns in areas where people believe that in order to get them to see the truth, and then vote for him. BUT he was honest in saying he didnt know.
Please continue, this is a riot!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And I thought that you couldn't go further than "Bernie is reaching out to voters on the other side" to spin this as anything other than a horrible gaffe.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)For me, it's a toss-up.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)It seems that one is running out of ways to post a response in this thread that doesn't get oneself into a deeper hole.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)to you, is apparently is defined by what one particular Senator utters.
https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-stonewalling/
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)gaffe in sometimes contradictory terms.
He reinforced the misconception. He was trying to evade admitting that he had no answer, so he tried to appear that he did.
In doing so, he showed lack of understanding or knowlege of a basic anti-choice trope concerning legislation. That is what he is being criticized for.
Not unlike the gaffes in response to white supremacy questions at the She the People forum.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)He went on to support the erroneous idea that "it's a concern" when it's not.
It's an anti-choice trope. Had Bernie said, "No, that's a solution looking for a problem, because that's not a problem in this country," that would have been a good response.'
He tried to answer a question that the didn't know the answer to.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)and wound up by agreeing with the interviewer that a RW fallacy was a legitimate "concern."
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)All politics is local. Truth is in the eye of the beholder.
A small but significant portion of red state voters could be wooed back to Trump with dog whistle issues like gender selective abortion. The whole country is better off with our candidates trying to address the issue now, even if, in so doing, the candidate made an error which could be addressed in future responses.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Bernie agreed with and therefore perpetuated a lie that the anti-choicers promote, in an attempt to avoid not giving an answer to the interviewer. That's not in the eye of the beholder
So you think that our candidates should therefore agree with Trump on other "dog whistle issues" based in lies as well?
What if the interviewer of any other Democratic POTUS candidate had said "What about the problem of ISIS members sneaking in with the immigrants at the border? How would you deal with that in the law?
And he said:
I dont know how, at this particular point, I would deal with it, but that is an issue that we really have got to deal with."
Would you be bending over backwards to defend it like you are doing Senator Sanders:
"The whole country is better off with our candidates trying to address the issue now, even if, in so doing, the candidate made an error which could be addressed in future responses."
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)a top definition of "politics" is "the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy."
http://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/politics
Last attempt:
Enough voters think that gender selective abortion is an issue that Check Todd's producers approved of his asking about it. We may disagree to our bones with the legitimacy of the question but that is not the point.
The bottom line is this: we have 2 choices for dealing with this stripe of voter:
a) do our best to lure them to factual conclusions; or
b) wait for them to die, at which point they no longer could vote, and HOPE that they didn't pollute the mind of their offspring with the stupid garbage.
I prefer political courage, which we know from experience to be the correct approach in the general election.
Sanders will be happy to consider Warren for running mate. Perhaps by then, you will come to grips with the simple reality that Bernie's only mistake with in being unprepared, not for making a clumsy attempt to deal with the question. After all, red state voters watch Meet The Press, too.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)The bottom line is this: Sanders didn't know how to answer this question, tried to, and stepped in it. Badly. In fact he perpetuated a RW fallacy.
What does that have to do with his gaffe?
Perhaps you will eventually come to grips with the fact that this mistake revealed that he didn't know a basic RW anti-choice trope. And now you're put the car in reverse again... back from "it's his strategy to reach flippable Trump voters on this issue."
The lack of courage to admit that one isn't ready to answer a question, leading a huge gaffe is "political courage?" One you would TOTALLY praise as such in any other candidate.....
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)My final word on the subject.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)then in the attempt, perpetuating a RW trope about women?
Final word?
https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-stonewalling/
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
mcar
(42,403 posts)It is not "in the eye of the beholder."
Do you think those crazies who believe that HRC was running a sex trafficking ring out of a DC pizza parlor were truthful? How about anti-vaxxers? I could go on.
Those are lies that some choose to believe. Not truth that they behold.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)That said, I really dig the creative ways you guys have in not merely giving a him free pass, but the colorful and creative pretense in claiming another of his "d'oh!" moments is actually some rare form of genius.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Politicub
(12,165 posts)It would have been easy for Sanders to turn the tables on Todd and challenge him about why he was asking such a stupid question.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)Human error can be difficult to accept. Our candidates are not robots.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Human error on the part of their candidate can be difficult to accept for some supporters of some candidates.
If by "inartful" you mean he tried to answer a question he didn't know the answer to, and wound up with a major gaffe that indicates a lack of basic knowledge of the issue being discussed - anti-abortion legislation - then yes, it was VERY 'inartful."
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)it is clumsiness. Hurl as many facts as you want at them; a certain number of right-wingers see gender selective abortion as an issue. I know this for sure because they exist in my family. I have jousted with them verbally and left bloodied without landing a single bruise on them.
Bernie has been criticized for his perceived inability to attract tRump voters. By attempting to tackle this thorny issue, although poorly, he let us peek inside his strategy for the general election.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)as opposed to it being "inartful" and a failure of "media coaching."
This wasn't your family. It was an interview with a POTUS candidate who tried to answer a question he clearly had no idea about, and wound up reinforcing some of the hateful, misogyinistic RW tropes about women. Are you seriously saying that's the only alternative to "jousting" with them, because YOU wound up 'bloodied?" What about those who aren't on the other side of this? Are we supposed to stand by and ignore that?
You are still trying to spin inadvertently reinforcing RW fallacies, in a clumsy attempt to sound like he knew something that he didn't as "strategy."
Seriously?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
R B Garr
(16,995 posts)Great work.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Fresh_Start
(11,330 posts)because there is more than one "i don't know"
contrast,
I have no knowledge of this topic, " I don't know"
versus
I don't want to answer because it might not give me the result I want, "I don't know".
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,120 posts)Because I don't see that. As a woman, I'm also not aware that abortion based on the sex of a child is a thing here in our country. What Bernie said in that interview is
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Politicub
(12,165 posts)strip freedom from women. The laws make the womb the jurisdiction of the state, in the case of Alabama. These non-issue questions are from right wing talking points.
I dont doubt Bernie being pro choice. What I dont understand is why he wasnt more forceful in the defense of womens rights. This was the time to speak truth to power. And he didnt.
Do something about it, indeed.
Bernie would be wise to learn from Amy Klobuchar and how she responded to the Fox News interviewer this morning.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And it's not the "I don't know" part that is the problem. If he had stopped there, then that would have been the most honest answer.
It's the part where he says "...that is an issue that we really have got to deal with" that's the issue. What we saw there was a politician trying to give an answer when he didn't know what the answer was.
You really think that "...that is an issue that we really have got to deal with?"
No, banning "abortions for sex selection" is a solution in search of a problem. If you want to defend it as an issue, you are in less than desirable company.
https://www.guttmacher.org/evidence-you-can-use/banning-abortions-cases-race-or-sex-selection-or-fetal-anomaly
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)If it's anything, D.U. is an insightful peek into the spectrum of opinions within the DNC. Sanders tried to thread the needle. If I were in his shoes, reading the responses here, I would have set a similar goal (and kicked myself that my response was clumsy at best).
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)the interviewer that a RW fallacy was a real concern, instead of saying that it is a 'solution looking for a problem."
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,715 posts)partly because his tone deaf statements on social justice.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cha
(297,810 posts)BS didn't know that this was a bogus rw talking point.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
stuffmatters
(2,574 posts)Bludgeoning ANY pro choice candidate with this rightwing loony gotcha question is just inexcusable. I'm calling NBC to complain about Todd now.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Nuggets
(525 posts)known this was right wing garbage. Hes a career politician for crying out loud.
If he cant see through this simple rw tactics how could he possibly be s good President? Theyll be eating his lunch!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
stuffmatters
(2,574 posts)Chuck Todd's question was outrageous, shocking, despicable, frankly unimaginable from a MSM journalist, even the ever lazy, reprehensible "both siderist Todd. . I am leaning towards another candidate, but I sure am not going to make anti Bernie hay out of this instead of calling NBC & shutting down this misogynist shit stat.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LibFarmer
(772 posts)It may end up with a wedgie.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Arkansas Granny
(31,535 posts)As I understand it, the earliest gender of a fetus can be determined is at 18-20 weeks gestation. Aren't there already restrictions on abortions at that stage of pregnancy?
I haven't been pregnant for several decades and haven't really kept up with all the details.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
mopinko
(70,268 posts)i think they now have a less invasive way to sample the dna of a fetus, but that does give you the sex.
they do it pretty early for older moms.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Nuggets
(525 posts)abort babies due to his/her sex?
How large is this problem? Enquiring minds want to know!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Those bans are a solution looking for a problem.
https://www.guttmacher.org/evidence-you-can-use/banning-abortions-cases-race-or-sex-selection-or-fetal-anomaly
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
greatauntoftriplets
(175,755 posts)I've never heard of it used here.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)that could reveal gender is done.
This is an anti-choice fallacy. They propose legislation "banning sex or race selective abortions" as a solution looking for a problem, as a way to imply that it's an issue or "a concern" here. Like push polling.
That was the correct answer to that reporters' question.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Mr.Bill
(24,334 posts)"There is no law requiring a woman to give a reason for having an abortion and I would veto any such law".
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
stuffmatters
(2,574 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)This is just another reason (among many) why I could never support him. His supporters must be humiliated for him right now.
He's not going to get the AA and POC voters, he's going to lose the women voters (and people who care about this).
He's doing WORSE now than he did the last time her tried and lost.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Bernies going to get busy looking into solving this this non existent abortion issue right away!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I have higher expectations from anyone who wants to be the Leader of the Free World.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
comradebillyboy
(10,179 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I've noticed that too. He has little patience with women interviewers/reporters, and even when seated with women panelists, he shows very little respect or courtesy. I've seen the videos of the very rude gesticulations that are in-your-face and an invasion-of-personal-space and even when corrected and called out on it, he continues defiantly.
I've always believed that BS simply doesn't have the demeanor or patience to be our nation's leader. We need someone who is respectful of everyone and who knows how to listen. Those are the qualities that are important to me.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
comradebillyboy
(10,179 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LibFarmer
(772 posts)Someone running for dog catcher could have answered it with finesse and savoir faire to address it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
revmclaren
(2,534 posts)on woman's issues and reproductive rights than the candidate, there is a HUGE problem.
ONLY!!! 2019 and beyond.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Why is he even running? Yes... it's definitely a HUGE problem, and... you've hit the nail squarely on the head. Anyone who wants to lead our nations (and be the Leader of the Free World) needs to be more informed and better prepared. This was NOT one of those "gotcha" questions. This is IN THE FUCKING NEWS right now... this is an URGENT MATTER that I expect every candidate to be aware of and to be prepared to respond to.
He's totally lost the Women's vote and the POC vote and the AA vote. He needs to just withdraw now and go back to Vermont.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Unbelievable.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)that sex selection is practiced among some Asian communities in the United States, and proponents of race-selection bans erroneously claim that black women are targeted by abortion providers."
https://www.guttmacher.org/evidence-you-can-use/banning-abortions-cases-race-or-sex-selection-or-fetal-anomaly
It's right wing bullshit, not a valid "concern," it's a solution looking for a problem.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NYMinute
(3,256 posts)once we heavily tax the millionaires - umm strike that -- billionaires and corporations and eliminate income inequality, no one will need an abortion!!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... and how ill-prepared he is to be the Leader of the Free World. He's memorized three stump speeches and a half-dozen other things that he feels comfortable talking about (even though he has ZERO plans to implement them). Still... this just helps to show why it is that I can never support him.
It's funny and sad at the same time. Mostly sad though.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NYMinute
(3,256 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
greatauntoftriplets
(175,755 posts)How could he not be prepared to answer a question like that?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MasonDreams
(756 posts)A convoluted gotcha hypothetical question, So he didn't answer? I am sure that I may be missing something here. I am a male, it's really none of my business. Being pro-choice IS being against restrictions to a woman's right to choose.
All I know is we need a bigger Supreme Court, one that is not 2/3 Catholic. Oh no, I am just digging deeper. I'll shut up now.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)He wasn't prepared.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NYC Liberal
(20,138 posts)"Gotcha" questions are only a problem if you're unprepared, ill-informed, and can't think on your feet. I never heard HRC whining about them.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MasonDreams
(756 posts)However, are we arguing about a stacked SCOTUS that is bringing us this women torturing nightmare? Are we solidly opposed to starting the next 3 or 4 wars of aggresssion?
The absolute worst problem WE face is a third party that gives the fascist a second term.
Everybody is scared, how we treat each other going foward is the key.Love is the answer.
Especially now. Stronger together, ok. Hate can't drive out hate. Fear itself that's what I'm afraid of. Bernie may not be the man for the job, but if you run to H Kissinger for advice, you're going to make me angry.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Sarah Palin?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MasonDreams
(756 posts)Right after she won the nomination in 2016. If she hadn't immediately and publicly slid right, and snubbed Sanders, she could have had the landslide victory that we thought would happen. I was just stunned. The fact that anyone thought that was a smart move, just blew my mind. Fox & right wing radio etc. demonized Hillary for 20years. The rebukes were thoroughly brainwashed with disinformation against Hillary. They were filled with hate. I only took 1 course in political science. I heard less than 30min of fox or limbaugh in 30sec slices in 10 years. I knew they would crawl over hot coals to vote against her. How, on God's Allah's & Buddha's green earth did the professionals with all their degrees, experience, research and analysis NOT KNOW? It is as if they tried to convert evangelicals to a mystic form of islam. Hillary was Heroic standing against the vast RWing conspiracy. Strong, smart, brilliant accually, for 11 hrs. straight.on Bengahzi. But she wasn't going to win any RWing votes. Know your enemy, I think Warren can win and I'm not confident Biden can. For what it is worth.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MasonDreams
(756 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)about anti-choice legislation.
Which would not be such an issue if one didn't claim the mantle of the most "feminist" and "pro-choice" candidate.
He did give an answer - he agreed that this RW talking point was real and not fallacious.
Here's another example: What if the interviewer had said "What about the problem of ISIS members sneaking in with the immigrants at the border? How would you deal with that in the law?
And he said:
I dont know how, at this particular point, I would deal with it, but that is an issue that we really have got to deal with."
Would you be as supportive?
He could have answered, "Those are solutions looking for a problem. Those restrictions are not based on any problem here in the US, and are, like "racial selective" abortion restrictions more about perpetuating false ideas about women's reproductive choices."
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Me.
(35,454 posts)I could care less
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
tymorial
(3,433 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mcar
(42,403 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George Eliot
(701 posts)If this means he won't make a good leader, I beg to differ. I'm not voting for his stand on abortion by sex. Are you?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)He makes pretty impressive pronouncements, but when he is asked about the in-the-weeds details of policy to bring about those things he has no answer or is very vague.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George Eliot
(701 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
betsuni
(25,688 posts)That's not a thing here.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ecstatic
(32,748 posts)he has no idea of what to say. For me, that's unacceptable. We deserve a prepared, intelligent, thoughtful and capable president.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LibFarmer
(772 posts)as Chuck Todd-Bernie Sanders moment .... exactly like Katie Couric-Sarah Palin moment.
At least Sarah was not running for POTUS - only a running mate.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,467 posts)And this is his second time around!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Agreed. Sad to see that some here see it as a laughing matter and are just rofling all over themselves. I guess it's just a way to try and hide their humiliation that someone who wants to be the Democratic party's nominee was SO embarrassingly unprepared.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,467 posts)who stumbles on an abortion answer is a candidate I can't trust.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I know! This is BASIC! This is FUNDAMENTAL! Sadly, the BS campaign is like a broken record (for those of us who are old enough to know what a record is, and that a crack in the surface causes it to skip backward and repeat the same groove over and over.)
How did he get this far without realizing it? Has he forgotten it?
Was his HUMILIATING and DISASTROUS appearance at She the People not enough of a wake-up call for him, or for his campaign, or for his advisors?
Not only is this BASIC... it's CURRENTLY IN THE NEWS!! Of course it's going to be asked about!!!
UN-prepared and UN-qualified. He really should drop out now and go back to Vermont.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(145,667 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)That question was a total setup based around a bullshit premise and Todd should presumably know better...
But on the flipside, this isn't Bernie's first rodeo so he has to expect these kinds of traps anyway and stay on message regardless.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)Normal women don't get abortions because they don't like a fetus's sex. Both Todd and Sanders went off the rails here and showed they know nothing about women, or abortion. It's not an "issue that we really have to deal with," Bernie. That issue doesn't exist. We don't need laws banning it; women don't get abortions for that reason.
What is wrong with those two?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)"Yes, that's a concern," is a non-answer, a way to keep on talking, and make it sound as though you have given it thought, and agree with the person talking.
Like in the film Amadeus, where the emporer says, "Ah ha," when he doesn't know what the person is asking.
But anyone who had interest enough in the topic to answer would have known that saying "Yes, that's a concern" was the OPPOSITE of the right answer, and not simply a non-answer.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Partisan D
(43 posts)And I'm not a Sanders fan.
But what happened to "safe, legal, and rare?" Abortions for seemingly superficial reasons like the sex of a child? I think NARAL and Planned Parenthood may want to focus on Alabama and Missouri and Georgia right now...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)So? We're talking about what he said.
Nothing. Why do you ask?
As opposed to...?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Sanders has been in congress for very close to 30 years now. What person in his situation wouldn't have felt a need to consider this issue? To discuss with other thoughtful legislators aware that some day they might need to vote on issues related to it? Has he never felt a moral imperative either direction?
Interestingly, Sanders is answering "I don't know" to a lot of questions on a lot of issues. His astonishing ignorance after 3 decades in office about how the federal government works suggests it's all too possible that he is being honest, but what would that say about him?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)That's not 'lack of knowledge' he should have! That's just him being a regular person! Like someone that wasn't running for POTUS. He doesn't have pat 'establishment' answers on every tangental issue."
However if another candidate was to do that... "DEAL BREAKER! How can they call themselves a feminist?"
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)We know from him that he seemingly has a narrow range of things he really cares about, although he seems to be very passionate about those.
But on special editorial board interviews of two major newspapers last time, his bizarre level of ignorance became national news in itself. (Their transcripts are still online.) He literally was not able to explain how he could use government to implement his campaign promises for things he is presumably very passionate about, like healthcare. He didnt even seem to know enough to give weak answers and said he would appoint people who would know how to do it.
And now this.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Much like Jill Stein can promise solar everything, because she knows she'll never really need to figure out how.
For all his talk about "grassroots," his is the old, old school brand of authoritarian. top down management style - the guy at the top is the "idea man" and is never challenged. It's up to someone else to figure out how to deliver on his promises.
He relies on 'grassroots' support because those who work with him know him.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)and I suspect he must have expected to continue until he retired, telling himself his lack of achievement was because he was obstructed by a senate full of corrupt, corporatist minds. (No wonder he hates the Democrats'/Obama's ACA, tax increases on the wealthy, regulation of the financial industry, everything else.)
As bad times increased under conservative domination, Elizabeth Warren's call for strong solutions revealed previously unpolled, enthusiastic Democratic support for just that, but she didn't run. So he leaped into the wholly unexpected vacuum she left, but completely unready. And unable.
Absolutely to that last. It's a classic resort for people their colleagues and other professionals won't touch. They have to run as outsiders, almost always as populist "reformers" stirring up antagonism and claiming they'll clean up the corrupt system that won't support them. Sure they will. And sure wish I'd known that when I became old enough to vote.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lapucelle
(18,361 posts)BS should know that.
Todd followed up by asking Sanders how he would deal with that in the law? Sanders replied, I dont know how, at this particular point. I would deal with it, but that is an issue we really have got to deal with.
But, wait, it totally isnt. So-called sex-selective abortions are a talking point that conservatives have adopted in recent years; its based in the unfounded claim that a cultural preference for sons is driving women to terminate their pregnancies as soon as the fetus is predicted to be female.
snip============================
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,120 posts)I've brought it up to two pro-choice men. Neither knew it was something that is done. A chicken shit gotcha by a chicken shit pundit.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Last edited Wed May 22, 2019, 05:03 PM - Edit history (1)
"an issue that society has got to deal with, and it is of concern....an issue that we really have got to deal with?"
There's the difference - women getting abortions for "sex selection" is not an issue, but there are anti-choice legislation and talking points that falsely purport that it's so widespread and out of control that needs regulating. The interviewer asked what he thought about women getting abortions for "sex selection." Bernie said "it was a concern." Which is a RW talking point.
And no, not every pro-choice individual is going to be familiar with laws that are intended to demonize women and misrepresent their ethical priorities. But a candidate for POTUS running as a 'strong feminist' would be expected to.
He was doing the politician shuffle away from a topic with what he assumed was a benign non-answer "I don't know what I would do, but that is concerning, and I am concerned about that concerning thing you're talking about," but wound up reinforcing a RW talking point.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden