Democratic socialism means democracy

[Uncle Joe]

Link to tweet

[murielm99]

1. It is hard enough to get people

to pay attention to candidates, issues and what each candidate stands for.

I will be damned if I will stand around and explain democratic socialism to people in my precinct and my community. I will be supporting a Democrat and asking people to vote for him or her. I will not be explaining the difference between socialism, whether defined by Bernie or anyone else, and Democratic Socialism. I will support Democrats.

[left-of-center2012]

5. Amen

[Kahuna7]

7. Yep. If you're explaining, you're losing. nt

[corbettkroehler]

14. If You Don't Frame Your Argument, Your Opponent Will Do It For You

Far too few people are aware of the vast differences between authoritarian socialism and democratic socialism which many of our key allies have at the core of their system of government.

[Go Vols]

20. +1

[Uncle Joe]

21. + 2

[ehrnst]

56. +1000. (nt)

[brush]

10. Labeling oneself as a democratic socialist is like digging yourself...

into a six-foot hole to have climb out of before you even start the race. No matter what adjective you put in front of the word "socialism", most people skip past it and apply all the negative connotations of the word "socialism" to whoever is calling themselves a democratic socialist. It's silly for Sanders to even deny it or try to explain it since there are so many video and audio tapes in the recent past of him declaring himself to be just a "socialist" with no adjective in front of the word.

There's one in this thread even. Talk abut an uphill fight and putting yourself at a disadvantage to start with. No wonder Biden jumped out so far ahead of Sanders, he just calls himself a Democrat. What a concept.

[crazytown]

2. The Democratic Socialists of America would disagree

Socialism means the democratic socialization of the banks and corporations, of industry and agriculture, of the media and culture. Historically this idea has presumed the creation of a working class party, the destruction of the capitalist state, and the creation of a new more democratic government, the nationalization, municipalization, or the cooperitivization of the economy, the democratic elaboration of a national economic plan, and within that plan widespread community control and workers’ power in the workplace.

https://www.dsausa.org/weekly/a-dialogue-should-dsa-endorse-bernie-sanders-before-the-convention/

The DSA regard Bernie as Socialism Lite - A New Deal Liberal - Not really Socialism at all - "he looks back to Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s “New Deal” for his political model. In fact, FDR’s New Deal of the 1930s–and more important the economic expansion of World War II—established the social compact that saved capitalism..

The core of Socialism is supplanting capitalism. No amount of soft focus marketing can change that if the word is to have any meaning. If Bernie does not believe in 'the replacement of the capitalism', he should say so, and distance himself from his more radical past.

[Uncle Joe]

4. Democratic socialists have differences of opinion even within themselves in regards

to Bernie's position on the ideological scale, most agree and some don't.

Also, you are conflating capitalism with democracy.

The de facto core of capitalism is authoritarianism.

[Celerity]

12. highly regulated democratic capitalism is at the core of the best run political model

on the planet.

The social democrat Nordic Model.

It most assuredly is NOT democratic socialism.

Scratch most all 'real' self-admitted socialists and and ones finds an actual authoritarian beneath the surface. Some strands more than others, but with the dodgy side of the DSA (a pretty big chunk I might add), that quotient is fairly high, no matter how much they falsely try to redefine terms or paint a pretty red rose on it.

[Uncle Joe]

18. Bernie has long espoused the Nordic Model.

The U.S. is just predatory capitalism at all levels.

It didn't get that way by accident, capitalism at its' core is authoritarian, corporations are not democratic and history is rampant with examples of how American corporations and oligarchs were front and center in pushing for coups overthrowing democratically elected governments just because they didn't like them.

The major corporations and oligarchs also fund the cowardly politicians in power that push for voter restrictions and disenfranchisement or to weaken and prevent unions from taking hold here in the U.S. and its' all done for money and power.

If one considers "We the People" to be representative of the people then stronger government would translate to stronger democracy so long as you have free and fair elections but it's staunch capitalists that want to shrink government small enough so that you could drown it in a bath tub.

If capitalism were actually pro-democracy, the U.S. would've been much farther along toward the Nordic Model years ago.

Capitalism's true ethos is not one person one vote but one dollar one vote and the people/institutions with the most dollars will dominate elections and policies by hook or by crook.

You can define that anyway you like but it won't change the reality.

[George II]

33. Has the "Nordic Model" ever worked in a diverse country of 300+ million people?

[Uncle Joe]

38. Why shouldn't it?

The policies are universal in nature and for the common good.

[George II]

40. The three countries where the Nordic Model are touted as "successful" are....

...Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, an aggregate population of less than 20 million people, more than 90% of which are of the same race and religion.

Look at it this way, an economic system that might work on one block in a Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn won't necessarily work across the entire city of New York.

The economics of a neighborhood, city, state, or country doesn't operate in a vacuum divorced from other aspects of the interests of a society - race, religion, etc.

[Uncle Joe]

41. Predatory capitalism is most definitely not working in the U.S.

It's literally tearing our nation apart and Trump is just a symptom from this dysfunctional system.

If we don't alter course there will be future Trumps and they will be worse.

There is no logical reason as to why we can't change/evolve and catch up with the rest of the Industrialized world and actually have our government first and foremost represent the best interests of the American People, not just the wealthiest and most powerful among us.

[Fiendish Thingy]

37. Yes, people get Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy confised

Democratic Socialism, accurately defined, has Marxism at its core, and sees transition to state control of the means of production as its ultimate goal.

Social Democracies accept regulated capitalism with a “we’re all in this together” spirit, the antithesis of Randian Libertarianism .

[Blue_true]

42. You know more about it than I do, including some of the terms.

But I read in some or all of the Nordic countries that there is no minimum wage law, that companies can hire and fire people as business demanded (in their view). But, labor is strong in those countries and often work corporate policy with business to eliminate conflict.

I agree that anyone calling themselves socialist in any form tend to show a totalitarian side when pressed for details about what they propose. Generally it is in the form of "none of the current system works, so we need to replace all of it with something different". Unfortunately, something different" has not been well thought out and when questions are asked about that the totalitarian tendencies start to show.

I doubt that anyone calling themselves progressive and really meaning it, don't want an equitable society for everyone.

[ehrnst]

57. Indeed. Many who espouse socialism turn out to be rather authoritarian.

It has more to do with "They have too much power over me and my life so I want to take them down," than "An equitable social safety net serves the greater good."

I think a "my way or the highway" mentality is a big indicator of authoritarian thinking...

[Celerity]

11. thank you for this!

It drives me absolutely crazy when Bernie and others try to redefine a 200 year plus old concept (democratic socialism) to mean something it is not. It is a massive self-inflicted wound and aids in the despicable RW'ers falsely labelling anything (that in reality are nothing more than bog standard social democratic programmes) as socialist, which of course to them and tens of millions of reactionary Americans equates straight to communism.

THAT is the true danger of the Sanderite movement.

The DSA, btw, IS, unfortunately, chocked full of actually outright Trotskyites and even revisionist Stalinists. It is a cesspool and I so hope AOC and others soon distance themselves greatly from it.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[crazytown]

13. From the DSA Communist Caucus

"Our freedom will only come from collective ownership, access, and control over the means of life."

This is the core meaning of socialism; the socialization of the means of production. It is irrelevant whether we are talking about Marxist-Leninism, Trotskyism, or Democratic Socialism; without communal ownership, control and access you don't have socialism. The collective can be represented by a Democratic State, semi autonomous bodies, or devolved councils, but the DNA remains the same: ultimately individuals work for, and serve the collective.

The airbrushing, obfuscation and redefinition of Socialism is at best a hoax perpetrated against well-intentioned leftists who don't know their Marx, Lenin or even Lennon. It puts flesh on the communist straw man the Right have been beating since WWII. Sanders has put a target on his back, which as you say, conflates Socialism with garden variety Social Democratic reform, to the detriment of just about everybody.

[George II]

34. Good research, thanks.

[George II]

35. Follow up, note the similarity in the logo:

[Blue_true]

43. What is "revisionist Stalinism"? Never read that term. nt

[George II]

3. In his own words, "I am a socialist"....

[comradebillyboy]

25. Odd that so many of his followers don't believe him.

[Blue_true]

44. People change with time George.

The issue with Bernie is it is hard to tell whether he believe today as he did. When he is pressed for details on how he would implement policy he bails, so it is hard to tell whether he would use a totalitarian my way of the highway approach, or make change by convincing people with facts that the current system isn't working for everyone (a point that progressives massively agree on and even thinking conservatives (if that group exists in large numbers) agree on).

[George II]

46. Many of his supporters have been saying...

That part of his strength and appeal is that he hasn't changed in thirty years.

[Blue_true]

48. I know. I have seen them hold stuff against other politicians that they give Senator Sanders a pass

on. The crime bill is a perfect example. Biden is doomed to purgatory for Ço-authoring it, even as then House member Bernie Sanders voted for the final bill. I remember reading about what some neighborhoods were like during the years leading up to that crime bill, Biden was right to write it and Bernie was right to vote for it. Was it a perfect bill? No, but it did contain a lot of stuff that are not standards. Anyone who was alive when that crime bill was written and voted on can't be serious about now bashing Biden for it, I was living in a place where getting a speeding ticket was high crime and even I was happy to see it pass for the communities that were being destroyed by senseless violence.

[George II]

50. I remember that back then, too. Drug crimes were rising, murders were rising....

....and there was a clamor all over the country that something had to be done. I do remember that the cornerstone of the bill that many cities liked was the addition of 100,000 police officers "on the streets". That was drilled into us by the media, and it was the one thing that Clinton emphasized the most.

Lost in all the brouhaha is the fact that the bill was supposed to have expired ten years after passage, in 2004, or at least many provisions in the law. It was recognized by some that in order to stem the increase in crime the bill was necessary, but was supposed to have been temporary.

[left-of-center2012]

6. In my humble opinion (which is often attacked)

I think the average American wants a mid-stream Democratic candidate/president
and consider a "socialist" as a 'fringe' candidate.

"Progressives" are OK.

That's my humble opinion.

[George II]

27. I think your opinion is 100% correct.

Last edited Mon Jun 3, 2019, 06:35 PM - Edit history (1)

[LibFarmer]

54. +1000 nt

[msongs]

8. even bernie doesnt believe in it, since he is running as an independent for the democratic party

nomination, NOT as a democratic socialist party member or candidate lol

[brooklynite]

15. Democratic Socialism means Socialism

In the English language, the first word is a modifier of the second (primary) word.

[brooklynite]

16. No, Bernie; the phrase you're thinking of is "ethical communitarianism"...

How do I know? Because I just made the term up. And apparently I'm able to change the meaning of words whenever I want to.

[Peacetrain]

17. Socialism is not democracy... democracy is much messier for one thing

It can land you with anyone.. including someone like Trump...but democracy bends to the will of the people in time, and can give us a Barack Obama.... socialism while seeming benign can become dictatorship by committee because it is so inflexible..ask those who live under Soviet control..

[Uncle Joe]

19. It was predatory capitalism that gave us Trump, not democracy.

We do not live in a democracy.

We live in a predatory capitalist society that likes to pretend it's a democracy.

Trump's name was kept front center by the conflict of interest laden corporate media conglomerates with free publicity worth literally billions of dollars.

Trump's temperament, incompetence, corruption and ties to foreign governments should not have been difficult to discover and expose by our so called "fourth estate" if they had really tried.

The Soviets were not socialists, they were communist and today they're just basically a corrupt plutocracy along the same lines as Saudi Arabia only without the religious and royalty sheen.

[Peacetrain]

22. Sorry, but you have that on bass ackwards..

They called themselves Socialists because they had not achieved Communism..and once perfected they would have communism

[Uncle Joe]

23. Whatever they wanted to or still call themselves, they were communists and

today Russia is a plutocracy.

The Nordic nations are in the socialist strain with no intention of going communist.

[Blue_true]

45. The Nordics have informed capitalism.

Capitalism that recognizes that workers and the betterment of society can't be sacrificed for profits.

Everytime that socialism has been tried, it led to dictatorship by a single person or a small group of people.

[Nanjeanne]

24. Robert Reich explains it all very well.

Link to tweet

?s=21

[Uncle Joe]

26. Thanks for the excellent addition Nanjeanne.

[SouthernProgressive]

28. Excellent video. Thanks. NT

[stonecutter357]

29. I'm not a socialist , I don't think the democratic party is socialist.

[Thomas Hurt]

30. It doesn't matter what we think Socialism is....

it matters that conservatives control the narrative and socialism has been branded as evil and anything that the conservative doesn't like. Socialist is the new N word. Complete failure to manage that narrative.

[Uncle Joe]

32. Your post argues against itself.

It doesn't matter what we think Socialism is....

it matters that conservatives control the narrative and socialism has been branded as evil and anything that the conservative doesn't like. Socialist is the new N word. Complete failure to manage that narrative.

So long as it doesn't matter what we think and all that matters is what conservatives think there is no possible way to control any narrative.

By abdicating the battle field and allowing conservatives to dictate what is and is not proper, we hamstrings ourselves and they rule by default.

I believe in taking the conservative/predatory capitalists' power away for they will always represent the best interests of the 1% and give us future Trumps.

[still_one]

31. Both Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren made it clear they are DEMOCRATS, not Democratic Socialists

https://www.apnews.com/1d5789a50f854a5ab897292015343810

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/09/politics/elizabeth-warren-bernie-sanders-south-by-southwest/index.html

[MineralMan]

61. Smart of them.

[SidDithers]

36. Words have meaning...

Sid

[Uncle Joe]

39. The fundamental question is who do we allow to give meaning to the words?

I don't believe we should allow conservative champions of predatory capitalism to define words which encompass our ideals.

[brush]

51. If you're explaining you're losing. Defining oneself as a socialist...

is the kiss of death in American presidential politics. Don't know why he hasn't learned that after all these years, especially after 2016.

[LanternWaste]

58. I don't think we should allow our most sacred cows to give meaning to words.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. And, like all your recent posts, mine too is completely without objective evidence to support it, and instead relying almost completely on bumper sticker-wisdom in its place.

[Uncle Joe]

59. It is you; being captive to "bumper sticker wisdom"

socialism is a scary word, it can not be defended, discussed or explained because it's "politically risky" regardless of the myriad variations of the ideology.

Just a continuation of Reagan's "government is the problem" and its' Clinton cousin of "The era of big government is over."

Power abhors a vacuum and if you don't have a vibrant government looking out for the "general welfare" of the people, then oligarchs and corporate conglomerates will most definitely take its' place.

"We the People" literally means socialism but too many today are enthralled with "We the Corporations" and corporations by their very nature are authoritarian.

[Loki Liesmith]

47. It actually doesn't

That’s social democracy. Democratic socialism is using the tools of democracy to install a classically socialist regime. After that the democracy part isn’t nearly so essential.

[highplainsdem]

49. LOL! No, it doesn't. I'd give Sanders an A for creativity, and an F for understanding English,

if I thought he really believed what he posted there. But he was spinning, and I'm sure he knows it.

[Thomas Hurt]

52. Start attacking the right's definition of socialism and take control of the narrative.

[brooklynite]

53. Please do inform us: what is the CORRECT definition of Socialism?

any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods --Merriam Webster

A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. --Oxford

any economic or political system based on government ownership and control of important businesses and methods of production --Cambridge

any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy. --American Heritage

[LibFarmer]

55. hahahahahaha

[OKNancy]

60. Democratic Socialism equals ---- Losing n/t

[MineralMan]

62. It also equals a second Trump term.

I don't think Democrats want that. Really, I don't.