Hickenlooper responds to Sanders.....who responds to Hickenlooper.....who responds to Sanders.

[brooklynite]

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[Tipperary]

1. Hickenlooper wins that exchange.

Hands down.

[JI7]

3. easily

[Hortensis]

38. Completely. Fighting human nature by oppressing rights

is a losing formula. Socialism as a governing system rather than used in small areas very suited to it (our socialist military and its VA) has failed everywhere its experiment was imposed on long-suffering populations. It doesn't just not work, it's profoundly disrespectful of and inimical to the rights and freedoms of the people.

[JI7]

2. Hickenlooper actually has a record of accomplishments

[Tipperary]

4. Be interesting to see his compared to Bernie's.

I think that would be another win for Hickenlooper.

[we can do it]

19. BS is the best finger wagger, hands down.

[BootinUp]

5. Facts matter.

Would be curious to read a fact check on Hickenlooper ‘s claims. I prefer a government that actually does things and if his claims are true then he should be touting them.

[JI7]

6. he is right and Rachel maddow has reported on some of it also

the thing with Hickenlooper is he is one who those who would most likely be a good president but they usually don't get out of primary because presidential primaries usually want people to have a little something extra rather than just being known as a good and experienced official.

[VarryOn]

11. I agree. I've generally been pro-governor in presidential races...

Carter, Dukakis, Clinton, Dean...maybe a couple more, but can remember!

But, nowadays, if one came from anything other than a pretty blue state where they could be a doctrinaire Democrat, getting through the primaries will be more difficult.

[still_one]

7. In March both Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren made it Clear they were NOT Democratic Socialists.

They were Democrats

https://www.apnews.com/1d5789a50f854a5ab897292015343810

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/09/politics/elizabeth-warren-bernie-sanders-south-by-southwest/index.html

[George II]

8. Good for him! Only ONE candidate has gone after fellow candidates with a vengeance.....

We don't need this.

Hickenlooper just moved up a few spots in my mind.

[oasis]

9. I'd love to see those two tangle in the upcoming debates.

[lapucelle]

10. FDR said that the New Deal wasn't socialism

[colsohlibgal]

12. By Definition It Was

Taxing the wealthy to help the less fortunate....sounds pretty socialistic to me.

Because so many are phobic about even Democratic Socialism FDR had to be a bit coy.

[JI7]

13. that would mean Republicans are socialist also

since they support things like farm aid

[Lucky Luciano]

16. It's not socialism when it benefits white people and large corporations. Duhhh....

[lapucelle]

15. FDR wasn't being coy.

[GulfCoast66]

24. Well, then you haven't read what socialism is.

All reasonable societies tax those with money. Unless they are slipping into corporate capitalism, otherwise know Fascism as we have been for 40 years.

Socialism is state ownership of the means of production. There is no other universally recognized meaning.

Since the 30’s Republicans have been smearing social democratic capitalism as Socialism. To the point many on the left believe it. There is not a single socialist country in Western Europe whose policies I hope to adopt.

[crazytown]

28. By definition it isn't socialism

Socialism is socialization of the means of production, that is, putting the ownership and control of industry, finance and services into the hands of public institutions, including the state itself. Redistribution and welfare is textbook social democracy, not socialism.

[Politicub]

40. That's just called taxes

Socialism is an entirely different economic system that fundamentally changes the relationship between the individual and the state.

I’m not sure if someone can be a little socialist. It seems like an all or nothing proposition to me. It’s not a bad ideology, per se. It’s just different.

A capitalist can support highly regulated markets and a comprehensive social safety net without being a socialist.

[melman]

18. When did he say that?

Certainly not in that video.

[lapucelle]

29. June 28, 1934.

[melman]

32. When did he say what the title claims?

Not when did he say what's in the video. We've already established the video doesn't show him saying that.

[lapucelle]

33. Read FDR's fireside chat speech from the date cited.

Last edited Fri Jun 14, 2019, 03:52 PM - Edit history (1)

FDR outlines the three major components of the New Deal program and explicitly states that fascism, communism, regimentation, and socialism are strange names. He rejects the socialism claim just as surely as he rejects the claim of fascism.

“A few timid people who fear progress will give you new and strange names for what we are doing. Sometimes they will call it ‘Fascism,’ sometimes ‘Communism,’ sometimes ‘regimentation,’ and sometimes ‘Socialism.’

I believe in practical explanations and in practical policies. I believe that what we are doing today is a necessary fulfillment of what Americans have always been doing -- a fulfillment of old and tested American ideals."

"FDR was really a socialist" has been a right wing/anti Democratic Party talking point for decades. It's current co-option is bizarre, to say the least.

[melman]

34. I have

Last edited Fri Jun 14, 2019, 04:11 PM - Edit history (1)

Here it is so everyone reading can see he simply does not say that

https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/presidential-speeches/june-28-1934-fireside-chat-5-addressing-critics











edit: the post this one was responding to originally just said "Read FDR's fireside chat speech from the date cited." all the other text was added after my reply

[lapucelle]

35. He clearly does say it.

"A few timid people who fear progress will give you new and strange names for what we are doing. Sometimes they will call it ‘Fascism,’ sometimes ‘Communism,’ sometimes ‘regimentation,’ and sometimes ‘Socialism.’”

FDR is clearly rejecting all four labels.

[melman]

37. Ah

So now we're talking about your interpretation. That's very interesting and all, don't get me wrong, but the question was when does he say what the title claims. And the answer is clearly never. He never says "the New Deal is not socialism"

as we can very clearly see here..


"Later in the year I hope to talk with you more fully about these plans. A few timid people, who fear progress, will try to give you new and strange names for what we are doing. Sometimes they will call it " Fascism", sometimes "Communism", sometimes "Regimentation", sometimes "Socialism". But, in so doing, they are trying to make very complex and theoretical something that is really very simple and very practical.
I believe in practical explanations and in practical policies. I believe that what we are doing today is a necessary fulfillment of what Americans have always been doing -- a fulfillment of old and tested American ideals."

[lapucelle]

39. "We" are not talking about "my interepretation". FDR's words mean what they mean.

The reasonable, logical, common sense, everyday construction of FDR's words is a rejection of the "strange new names" that others attempted to impose on his policies.

Those who wish to further impose a secret, coded subtext to FDR's clear and plain language are more than welcome to do so. They should be prepared to defend their position that FDR was not rejecting any of the labels, including that of "fascism".


FDR's personal bemusement concerning the label "socialist" and his clear conviction of exactly who and what he was could not be clearer.

A young reporter once asked him, “Are you a socialist?”
“No.”

“Are you a capitalist?”
“No.”

“Well, what is your philosophy?”

“Philosophy? I am a Christian and a Democrat--- That’s all."

I am a Democrat---that's all.

[Tiggeroshii]

14. It is a sad day when we see prominent Democrats using Republican talking points.

...and typical strawman fallacies to ridicule popular ideas.

[George II]

17. Whew! "republican talking points", "strawman fallacies", "popular ideas".....

...my head is spinning.

[Tiggeroshii]

21. Might wanna get that checked out.

Spinning heads are not normal

[mcar]

20. Where and where?

[Skittles]

22. how so?

[RandySF]

23. This is why Bernie is ill-suited to run in a multi-candidate field.

It's easy to pull him into spats.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

25. Has Hickenlooper announced yet?

[comradebillyboy]

26. Why is BS responding to a guy at 1%?

I agree with Hickenlooper on his critique of Bernie, but Hickenlooper is lost in the noise. Why is Sanders wasting his time responding? He's so thin skinned he can't look at the bigger picture. Maybe Bernie would be better off telling us how he's going to bring back the New Deal and ignore the folks trailing him.

[ecstatic]

27. I had to look up LARC

I see that's the new name for IUDs.

[JI7]

30. What Hickenlooper did is what FDR is talking about there

[lapucelle]

31. Reporter: "Are you a socialist? " FDR: "No [...] I am a Democrat."

A young reporter once asked him, “Are you a socialist?”
“No.”

“Are you a capitalist?”
“No.”

“Well, what is your philosophy?”
“Philosophy? I am a Christian and a Democrat--- That’s all.”

The Defining Moment: FDR's Hundred Days and the Triumph of Hope
By Jonathan Alter
p. 244

[Hortensis]

36. I-Sanders: "I am not now, nor have I ever been, a liberal Democrat."

When people tell you who they are (many times), believe them.

Like this: "We can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." Speaker Pelosi quoting Justice Louis Brandeis in her speech to the nation opening the 116th congress.