I really, really hate the term "Democratic Socialist". Really, I do...

[TreasonousBastard]

It's a made-up name for an ill-defined something or other. Even people who self-identify that way don't agree on what it means.

Socialism is the state ownership and control of the means of production. If there were such a thing as democratic socialism, it would mean that the government is elected and will do the will of the people while making cars, clothes, and cheeseburgers. We've seen how well that works under Communism.

There are, however, social democracies. Unfortunately, they have also been poorly named, but at least we know they are places like Denmark. And Sweden has universal education and health care, but has allowed Ikea and Volvo to grow as private companies.

This is what is known, boringly, as the "mixed economy" which also has various competing definitions. What this means under all of the definitions, though, is that capital and government each does what it does best-- capital makes cars people want and government builds roads to drive them on. And, of course, primary functions of government are regulation, the legal system, and whatever else, like money, is needed for commerce to work. Needless to say, there is lots of overlap and nobody does it perfectly.

The cited article below makes a big point about how Americans view so many things as a binary choice. It also makes the point that the way things are presented make it difficult to do anything in a non-binary way.

So, I listened to Bernie explaining Democratic Socialism, making his usual points but failing to put it together into a political theory-- what makes this way any different than what we've been doing? Sure, Nixon gave us the EPA (kicking and screaming all the way) only to see Reagan and Trump try to destroy it. And, by the way, what is the underlying ethic behind all these neat things we all agree on doing?


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/12/us/politics/democratic-socialism-facts-history.html

[democratisphere]

1. Sure beats "Democratic Communists" as the rethuglicons refer to US.

I agree with you. Many voters will run the other way from that term.

[George II]

2. It's the name of a political party, of which some of our Democratic office-holders claim membership:

Democratic Socialists of America

https://www.dsausa.org/

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. How can you belong to two political parties at once?

[TreasonousBastard]

6. That site specifically says it is not a party, just an organization.

[George II]

8. Members of that "organization" say that they belong to the "party". Semantics.

Even if it isn't a party, members of that "organization" claim to be Democratic Socialists.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. So, it's the Democratic equivalent of the Tea Party?

[Hortensis]

22. No. Democratic socialism is an ideology.

That is the official site of an organization that calls itself democratic socialists. It’s not a party and doesn’t run candidates; but Bernie Sanders on whom they’ve been very mixed, seems to have gained more support this time because he’s basically the only candidate they have to support in an era when more people say they’re interested in socialism.

But democratic socialism is a real Variation of socialism. Whoever doesn’t like the term should avoid reading things where it might pop up. Ideas and ideologies don’t just go away because someone doesn’t like them.

And anyone who doesn’t like Bernie Sanders being a lifelong socialist who is ardently committed to class-based revolution doesn’t like the most important, defining thing about him.

[LanternWaste]

32. What specifically leads you to that conclusion?

[crazytown]

15. "say that they belong to the 'party' "? No.

They say that they belong to The Party.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. For one thing, Bernie's terminology shows he's stuck in the '60s.

He goes on about oligarchs and the so-called "corporate class," apparently not thinking about the fact that many of the members of the proletariat have 401Ks and IRAs that depend on the capitalist stock and bond markets to help fund their retirement. Actually, I'm sure he does know that, being one of those dreaded millionaires himself. Bernie has made up a term, "democratic socialism," that has no real meaning and can't be coherently explained to voters, especially as long as it includes the term "socialism." Warren has done a far better job of putting together understandable concepts of regulated capitalism and a taxation system that provides necessary financial support for all citizens - which was never socialism.

[Turin_C3PO]

7. You can recognize that oligarchs and the corporate class are a bad thing

and still be for a strongly regulated capitalist system. I don’t think it’s necessarily being stuck in the 60s to acknowledge that. Again, as I’ve said in multiple threads, I think it’s stupid that Sanders uses the word socialist to describe himself, unless he’s for state ownership of businesses, which afaik he’s not.

I agree that Warren explains herself better and has more thought out plans. That’s why she’s my #2.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

14. That's true, but "corporate class" and "oligarchs" are buzzwords

that make him sound like he just got out of a college campus Socialist Workers Party meeting in 1966. I should know; I actually went to one of those meetings in those days. But what, exactly, is the "corporate class"? How rich and powerful do you have to be to be considered an oligarch? I, too, am much in favor of business regulations that don't squash the little guys - especially a better, fairer tax structure that makes a financial safety net possible. I think all of the candidates, and the Democratic party in general, oppose untrammeled predatory capitalism and favor generous social programs. But Warren explains how this might be accomplished while Bernie just rants about how bad the system is.

[brush]

19. Spot on about sounding like someone regurgitation Socialist Workers Party dogma.

At least there's no longer attacks on the Democratic Party "establishment". That was big in the 2016 campaign, and that term was straight our of 1960s campus radical rhetoric—as if someone was stuck back in that time.

[TreasonousBastard]

9. Warren is a magnificent policy wonk, but she is perhaps too specific...

Remember that old adage about not wanting to see how either laws or sausages are made?

Her proposals are well worked out, but I can't imagine them being proposed to Congress and not being chewed up into something unintended.

She knows a lot more than Trump about how to shepherd a bill through, but we'll see if she's an LBJ.

[crazytown]

16. LBJ? Errr ... No.

[OilemFirchen]

5. I believe that anyone self-labeling as a Democratic Socialist who doesn't espouse Socialist policies

does so for one of four reasons: naivete, ignorance, stupidity, or subterfuge.

Looking forward to any possibilities I may have missed.

[brush]

18. I understand actual democratic socialists do espouse state ownership of some...

industries along with cooperative ownership of others (in their manifesto).So there's that. Sanders speaks quite often that he favors the Nordic model practiced in northern European countries, which is actually social democracy—a highly taxed, highly regulated yet robust form of capitalism which provides the funding for free healthcare, college education, etc.

So it makes one wonder if touting the Nordic model is subterfuge to disguise actual socialist leanings or is it just mislabeling and having done it for so long for the attention and shock value, it's too late now to switch to the label of social democrat?

[Turin_C3PO]

20. That's what I'm confused about.

Does Bernie advocate for state ownership of business? I don’t know and don’t want to smear him like a Republican would do. If he does, then yes, he should call himself a socialist. If he doesn’t, then he should quit using the word, for his own good.

[Celerity]

21. add hubris and you have a top 5

Subterfuge is a polite way to say rat-fucking, and rat-fucking it is most definitely as it gives the corpo-RW and the Trumpster-dumpster reactionary scum a cheap and easy inroad to falsely posit bog standard social democracy/progressivism as socialist, which in dumbed-down, wilfully ignorant RW 'Murica is the same as yelling 'COMMIE!!!'

This whole subject, and the main candidate pushing this bullshit false self-labelling enrages me to no end.

[brush]

23. Me too. Guess it's been going on so long it's too late to social democrat.

That would be admitting a confusing of the two terms.

[LibFarmer]

10. Bernie does it for three reasons

1. shock value
2. Branding distinction and
3. Appeal to the anarchists/anti-order people who want to tear it all down in the (unrealistic) hopes that the replacement will be better.

This is the same reason he uses the word "revolution" even though it is just an election and nothing even close to a revolution.

Companies do it for brand distinction too -- like fashion designers calling their black shirts "licorice" or light blue shirts "ocean."

[Bleacher Creature]

26. This. Exactly this!

He doesn't do it because of his policies, which should be clear when you realize that Elizabeth Warren has a slightly more liberal voting record in the Senate, and yet never feels the need to use a variant of the term "socialist" in her political affiliation.

Bernie is all about the brand, and nothing else, which is why his policies are always so skimpy on details.

[SouthernProgressive]

12. It's a niche brand some are carving out and attempting to define as something different.

It's a tactic aimed at the younger and less educated voter.

[BannonsLiver]

13. It's terrible messaging. Flat out bad.

[Kahuna7]

17. That's a made up name, as is, Medicare for All. nt

[Skya Rhen]

24. Wait until the other side starts saying, "Democrat Socialist"...

[Mosby]

25. what ever happened to libertarian socialists?

There used to be a lot of people here who used that term.

[TreasonousBastard]

28. Somebody must have realized that a libertarian socialist is a rare thing indeed...

Kinda like an honest liar.

[AlexSFCA]

27. it means socialism plain and simple

Dem party rejects this ideology and rejects normalization of it. We support democratic capitalism and social democracy. Make no mistake, BS stands for nationalization of most major industries. Democratic socialism is a pathway to socialism.

[markpkessinger]

29. I think part of the thiinking of those who embrace the term "Democratic Socialism" . . .

. . . springs from a belief (which I think may very well be true) that by naming and claiming the "socialist" label, they can divest it of some of its power as a bogeyman. I mean, look, Republicans are going to call Democrats socialists irrespective of what we do, or of how centrist our policies and programs are. (Indeed, it's hard to imagine a more centrist attempt at healthcare reform than the ACA, but that didn't stop Republicans from labeling it "socialized medicine." By embracing the label openly, refusing to apologize for it, and refusing to act as if it is something to be ashamed of, Democratic Socialists are saying to the American people that their proposals fall squarely within the parameters of the historical sweep of American politics. And whether you realize it or not, in the long run, that helps all factions of the Democratic Party, even those who don't embrace the label.

You are correct that the econ 101 textbook definition of "socialism" is state ownership of the means of production. But on the ground, especially in the realm of politics, language doesn't operate according to strict definitions -- never has. In the real world of language usage, definitions and usage exist in a dynamic relationship, with usage often redefining words/terms such that those words/terms come to mean somewhat different things as they are used in particular ways.

[Humanist_Activist]

30. I find this fascinating, its like your education in left-wing economic policies began and ended...

with McCarthy era propaganda films.

[NurseJackie]

31. You're correct, and, no matter what, "Socialist" is still the noun. Sigh.

So, I listened to Bernie explaining Democratic Socialism, making his usual points but failing to put it together into a political theory

You're correct, and, no matter what, "Socialist" is still the noun. Sigh.

[NYMinute]

33. Anything labeled "socialist" is a losing tag in general elections nt