Bernie is hurting all the other candidates against Trump by insisting on calling

[pnwmom]

support for Medicare-or-all "socialist."

By Bernie's definition, supporting almost any government-run program for the common good would make a person socialist.

None of the other candidates identify as socialist, though that's how the R's attack them. So Bernie is pouring fuel on the fire.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-health-202/2019/06/13/the-health-202-bernie-sanders-says-supporting-medicare-for-all-makes-him-a-socialist-others-balk-at-the-term/5d012ed61ad2e55f2de7c0a8/?utm_term=.8f18870f9429

Sanders is the only presidential candidate who has fully embraced a socialist platform, Sean writes. Even Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), who wants vigorous government regulation, still describes herself as a capitalist. Other candidates, including former vice president Joe Biden, want to work within the capitalist system to enlarge the social safety net. (Here’s a great explainer from my Post colleague Amber Phillips on where the presidential candidates stand on socialism. Spoiler alert: Sanders is the only member of the “socialism is good faction.”)

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. He'll be gone soon, I think. I hope.

[NurseJackie]

12. Many people think the same as you. Many people have the same hopes as you.

[awesomerwb1]

31. That's very dangerous as well

Even after he's lost the nomination, his surrogates will launch attacks on steroids with the full support of the Bernie or bust bros. Very scary people who think they have nothing to lose as the country burns.

[lunamagica]

39. from your lips....

I can't wait for that to happen

[democratisphere]

51. He will be gone.

[abqtommy]

2. Bullshit.

reTHUGS can do bad all by theirselves.

[RandySF]

3. Honestly, I don't think he's having much impact on the others

Almost everybody supports dome version of universal care and most primary voters outside don't make much distinction between the plans. He may, in fact, be hurting himself by emphasizing the words 'Democratic Socialist".

[George II]

10. Democrats have supported some version of universal heath care for more than 75 years.

[Progressive2020]

17. And Yet

And yet it still has not been accomplished in over 75 years. Not a good sign.

[George II]

23. We got Medicare and Medicaid in 1965, and the ACA in 2010.

[Progressive2020]

74. Fair Enough

Hopefully Medicare For All will eventually be law, or at least some form of Universal Coverage.

[LakeArenal]

78. Medicare plus supplements are expensive...

So I don’t see much change to me.

[True Blue American]

80. Better than if you had

nothing at all.

[LakeArenal]

81. We are paying more now than when we worked.

[George II]

82. Our medicare supplements are $26 per month each.

[George II]

83. ALL of our candidates, all 24 of them, should be campaigning on retaining and building on the ACA...

....not coming up with some new, untested and unspecific plan to replace the ACA and doing away with current plans that millions of Americans are happy with.

[True Blue American]

79. They forget that.

All came from Democratic Administrations.

[emmaverybo]

4. He is more concerned about promoting his ideology than with helping Democrats. NT

[NurseJackie]

15. You're exactly right about that. Truer words have not been written.

Thank you for having the courage to say that out loud.

[Thekaspervote]

18. I'll second that..

[NurseJackie]

20. He explains it here... watch the 45-second video.

He explains it here... watch the 45-second video. Pay close attention to what he says his goal is in the last half of the video.

[betsuni]

36. He's running as a third party candidate without officially being third party.

The democratic socialist FDR Bernie Sanders party. FDRBS.

[NurseJackie]

38. Precisely.

Thank you.

[lapucelle]

55. Are you sure the initials are in the right order?

[betsuni]

58. Either way, it's still BS.

[lapucelle]

61. ...

[MineralMan]

91. Which is why he's unlikely to get the Democratic nomination.

Especially this year, with all of the competition. He's shedding supporters right now, and that's going to continue, I think. He must be hating Elizabeth Warren right now, since she's stealing his supporters, he thinks. But, other candidates are getting his supporters, too.

[jayschool2013]

25. YES

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vermont) does not want to help Democrats because he isn't a Democrat. He just plays one on TV.

[roody]

62. Yes! His ideology is do good for all people.

[Kahuna7]

75. That's what I believe. He's trying to make "fetch" happen...

[pandr32]

77. Yep!

Bravo for saying so!

[TwilightZone]

5. According to some of his supporters here, he's "adopted" the conservative

interpretation of the word. You know...the one we all know is nonsense.

"Sanders is the only presidential candidate who has fully embraced a socialist platform, Sean writes."

No, he hasn't. His platform is much closer to Warren's "capitalism with serious rules" position than anything resembling actual socialism.

As I've noted in other threads, I think he's realizing that he's painted himself into a corner and he now has to convince the public that everything he supports is socialism, therefore socialism is a good thing. Going to be a tough sell.

[NurseJackie]

16. If he's explaining, then he's falling behind. It's a losing game.

BS will not be our party's nominee.

[Indygram]

6. I'm so glad Beto supports Medicare for America

[Progressive2020]

7. Tempest In A Tea Pot

We have a Mixed Economy, a Private Sector and a Public Sector with Social Security, Medicare, etcetera. So, a mix of capitalism and government social programs. It has been like this for a long time.

I am not sure that this is anything but nomenclature. Bernie wants to make it an ideological issue, but I do not think that it is necessarily the best way to frame the debate. People want results, not philosophy.

So, to me it is not really important what you call it, just as long as Health Care/Medicare For All, gets done.

[Bradshaw3]

37. Well said

As Lawrence O'Donnell said, almost every industrialized country has some form of mixed economy. Some have more socialism than capitalism and some are vice versa. It's just a matter of degree and labeling.

[Cosmocat]

89. Don't disagree functionally, but "socialism" is one of the biggest

if not the biggest "reasons" we can't get anything done.

2/3 of the country has been brainwashed to lose their minds if the word "socialism" is muttered.

Rs are going to do it, because they know this.

There just is no way at this point anyone can lean into that word and get anything done.

[empedocles]

8. Warren seems to be benefiting from Dems learning the cost of the 'Socialist' tag.

[LAS14]

9. I wish everyone would adopt "progressive capitalism." nt

[pnwmom]

11. Good idea. nt

[Progressive2020]

13. Yes

I think that the academics call it "democratic capitalism" rather than "progressive capitalism", as you suggest. But it is a good point.

I think Warren is smart to call it "capitalism with rules". She has progressive policies, but does not want to alienate people who are scared of terms like "socialism".

So, democratic capitalism, or capitalism with rules, are good terms to sell the progressive policies with.

[AlexSFCA]

30. progressivism is not equal to socialism

they are opposite in most circumstances. Progressivism is much closer to capitalism. BS believes in socialism as he advocated for nationalization of major industries. He sees democratic socialism as a pathway to socialism. If he is the nominee, we will see the largest landslide election in favor of trump since reagan. He will also drag down other democrats running for federal, state and local seats all the way to hell with him. We only have 3 viable choices against trump: warren, buttigieg and biden. In that order. All three have the chance to beat trump but the first two have a better chance to induce record turnout and elevate federal, state and local races. Let’s be honest here on DU - most of us love Biden but he excites no one. If Warren consolidates BS votes and most other candidates votes, Biden has no chance securing the nomination. The only way she loses if BS does not withdraw. You bet Kamala’s votes are going straight to Warren.
Don’t be tricked by national polls inflated by media. They all predicted landslide victory for Clinton where she couldn’t even take safe blue state like WI anywhere near landslide margin. And before you start bringing up election interference - there is every reason to believe that 2020 interference will be MUCH bigger.
Media will stop at nothing to keep trump in power - he is their ticket to ratings. He is like drugs to addicts for them.

[LAS14]

56. Hadn't heard "capitalism with rules." I like it very much! nt

[Sapient Donkey]

69. That's a good term. Similar to Yang's human centered capitalism.

Most people, except for the staunchest of laissez faire libertarian types, can agree that free markets are good at giving general momentum, but there has to be some greasing of the gears via social programs and regulations to keep things from going out of control. I think terms like these seem to fit that view nicely.

[Perseus]

14. Small correction

If I am not mistaken, Bernie doesn't say he is a socialist, he says he is a "Democratic-Socialist" which is the same the Scandinavian countries have that works so well.

I am not defending Bernie, I am not a fan, but I think the conversation is good, enough with the medical industry, the pharmas, insurance companies deciding whether people live or die depending on their economic status.

If we do want to make this country the best then education must also be free.

[NurseJackie]

19. Socialist is the noun. Democratic is the adjective. He's still a socialist and everyone knows it...

Socialist is the noun. Democratic is the adjective. He's still a socialist and everyone knows it. I believe it's pretty clear that he's trying to sugar-coat it by slipping in "Democratic" at the beginning, but in the long run, that really isn't helping to close the deal or make his political philosophy more palatable.

[pnwmom]

22. The Nordic countries call themselves Social Democrats,

which is not the same thing as Democratic socialists, except to Bernie.

Social Democrats are still capitalists; Democratic socialists are not.

https://jacobinmag.com/2018/08/democratic-socialism-social-democracy-nordic-countries

The Nordic countries — Finland, Norway, and Sweden — are social democracies. They have constitutional representative democracies, extensive welfare benefits, corporatist collective bargaining between labor and capital that is managed by the state, and some state ownership of the economy. These institutions would be much preferable relative to the ones in our neoliberal wasteland.

Yet even if labor is given a greater voice both at the workplace and in the management of the economy, capitalist control persists over the large majority of workplaces.

In social democracies, public ownership of the main productive assets is limited in comparison to what it could be. Consider the strongest case, Norway. Bruenig emphasizes its public ownership by pointing out that the state owns seventy-four companies. This is no small matter: the state-owned enterprises (SOEs) in Norway account for nearly 60 percent of GDP. The majority is made up by Equinor, the state-owned oil company, which accounts for about 60 percent of the state’s shareholding (the state owns about 67 percent of its shares). In total, the SOEs, including the oil company, employ about 280,000 workers.

But absolute numbers are always deceptive out of their context. There are about 2.8 million total employed workers in Norway. Just 10 percent of the employed workforce work in these state-owned enterprises. The public sector in general employs about 30 percent of the workforce, the highest proportion in the capitalist world.

[Celerity]

47. +10000

lolol

so much disinfo from BOTH pro and anti Bernie sides

drives me cray cray at times

[susanr516]

84. I think of myself as a Social Democrat

About 20 years ago, I ran across a synopsis of European political parties, and Social Democracy was very close to my personal views.

[pnwmom]

85. Probably a lot of progressives would agree.

But unlike Bernie, they wouldn't view themselves as socialists.

[TwilightZone]

27. He said he was a socialist for years. The "Democratic" part is a relatively recent addition.

Here's a bit of the history:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/aug/26/bernie-sanders-socialist-or-democratic-socialist/

[LibFarmer]

28. Nordic countries

[Celerity]

35. The Nordic countries are NOT Democratic Socialists, they are Social democracies

HUGE difference. They have really vibrant capitalist economies yet they also highly regulate them and have expansive social welfare states as well.

Compared to the US, they are more productive per hour worked, have far more upward mobility, have higher median personal incomes, far less wealth inequality, have almost free (in terms out out of pocket expenses for all care and all pharma) and higher quality health care, free university tuition, live longer, are more healthy, etc etc etc etc.

Also, Sweden, for example is now more ethnically diverse in terms of non white European foreign born and children, grand children, etc of those immigrants (27% of the population and climbing, 73% white) than the US (76.6% white) is, so it can no longer be chalked off (as many intellectually lazy people do) to the big lie that 'oh, it is because they are an all-white homogeneous society'.

Bernie is not a ‘real’ socialist, has not been for decades, he is a social democrat who foolishly tries to redefine socialism into something it is not. Why he does this, I have no clue. It is stupid and hurts any chances for bog standard social democratic programmes being passed, including many that a majority of ‘regular’ (and even a majority of the nation, in some cases) Democrats support.



What socialism is — according to Bernie Sanders

https://bigthink.com/politics-current-affairs/what-is-socialism-bernie-sanders

Bernie Sanders explains what socialism is

Luckily for us, Senator Sanders explained his political philosophy in a speech he delivered at Georgetown University in 2015. (The entire speech can be viewed here.)

He begins by referring to the New Deal of President Franklin Roosevelt and pointing out the good that it did for a country in the depths of the Great Depression:

“He saw one-third of a nation ill-housed, ill-clad, ill-nourished. And he acted. Against the ferocious opposition of the ruling class of his day, people he called economic royalists, Roosevelt implemented a series of programs that put millions of people back to work, took them out of poverty and restored their faith in government. He redefined the relationship of the federal government to the people of our country. He combated cynicism, fear and despair. He reinvigorated democracy. He transformed the country. . . . And, by the way, almost everything he proposed was called ‘socialist.'”

The senator then muses on several issues facing the United States, income inequality, unemployment, high rates of childhood poverty, the high cost of medical care, and a declining faith in our political system, among others, and decides that the concentration of wealth and power is both the root cause of them and the key reason why we have failed to solve them. His solution, of course, is “socialism.” It is then that he gives us his conception of what that is:

“Democratic socialism means that we must create an economy that works for all, not just the very wealthy. Democratic socialism means that we must reform a political system in America today which is not only grossly unfair but, in many respects, corrupt.”

He goes a bit into the particulars of policy and explained that his conception of socialism would require — this is what it would look like — universal health care, total employment, free college education, more public spending, a living wage, environmental regulations, and a robust democratic culture to come into existence. He flatly denied any interest in nationalization, telling the audience:

“So the next time you hear me attacked as a socialist, remember this: I don’t believe government should own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a fair deal.”
The contents of this speech were very similar to other statements he has made about socialism across his entire political career. The entire speech could have been summed up neatly in a quote he gave to the Associated Press back in 1997:<b>”To me, socialism doesn’t mean state ownership of everything, by any means, it means creating a nation, and a world, in which all human beings have a decent standard of living.”</b>Wait a moment, praise for the New Deal? No interest in nationalization? That definition sounds a lot like capitalism!

You might have noticed that this program focuses on making capitalism work better and not replacing it with an entirely new system based on social ownership. This has made his definition of socialism a matter of contention.

While “socialism” is a system based around replacing private ownership of the means of production with social ownership, which generally means having the workers own and operate them instead — either through cooperatives or the state — Bernie hasn’t shown much of an interest in using the government to promote this change.

Bernie’s explanation of “socialism” is, in fact, closer to what political philosophers refer to as “social democracy.” This is a capitalist system, since the means of production are still privately owned, where the state heavily regulates the economy and has an active welfare system in place to correct for the worst problems inherent to capitalism like inequality, cyclic instability, or the profit motive encouraging people to do things against the public interest.

snip

here is what actual socialists say

No Bernie

https://cosmonaut.blog/2019/02/20/no-bernie/

Most of the pieces encouraging a DSA endorsement of Bernie Sanders in 2020 are quick to admit that his politics are not socialist politics. We want to abolish capitalism, to do that we’ll need a revolution, and clearly Bernie doesn’t support either of those things. Many of his policy positions are far better than those which any other liberal politician has on offer, but at the root of things Bernie’s policies are about getting friendlier managers in charge of capitalism, not abolishing the system itself.


Bernie Sanders Is No Socialist
Social democracy would have been an easier label to defend – and more accurate.

https://www.theglobalist.com/bernie-sanders-socialist-politics-elections/

Is Sanders actually a social democrat?

In the European – and particularly the postwar German – political tradition I come from, there would be no question that Sanders is, in fact, a “social democrat.” That is not a radical or controversial label in the least.These days in fact, he would qualify on many (though not all) issues as a middle-of-the-road member of Angela Merkel’s CDU, the largest party in the German government (and supposedly right-of-center).Germany aside, most of Europe’s major center-left parties have been social democratic – not socialist, democratic or otherwise – for nearly 70 years, if not well over 100.
Social democrats believed they could use government, selected by democratic elections, to achieve social improvements via reforms of (or expansions to) government aid programs and regulation of the marketplace and big business. Democracy, properly harnessed, and not a socialist state, would fix social ills.



Bernie Is Not a Socialist and America Is Not Capitalist
Scandinavia is, by one measure, a freer market than the United States.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/03/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism/471630/

Sanders is not a typical socialist. Sure, he believes in a highly regulated and heavily taxed private enterprise, but he does not seem to want the state to own banks and make cars. Considering the negative connotations of “socialism” in America, it is a bit of a puzzle why Sanders insists on using that word. It would be much less contentious and more correct if he gave his worldview its proper name: not “democratic socialism,” which implies socialism brought about through a vote, but social democracy.

In a social democracy, individuals and corporations continue to own the capital and the means of production. Much of the wealth, in other words, is produced privately. That said, taxation, government spending, and regulation of the private sector are much heavier under social democracy than would be the case under pure capitalism.



A Socialist Case Against Bernie 2020
A left-populist campaign inside the Democratic Party will not get us closer to socialism.

https://www.leftvoice.org/a-socialist-case-against-bernie-2020

[crazytown]

43. ! +1

Excellent work. Thank you.

[susanr516]

86. Spot on, thanks.

[Blue_true]

70. Scandinavian countries have SOCIAL DEMOCRACY.

That is a system that is highly dependent upon capitalism, with the upside that capitalism benefits all of society.

Senator Sanders has steadfastly called himself a democratic socialist, an ideology that has socialism at it's roots. He links his policies to the New Deal, but the New Deal was basically capitalism on steroids, with the side effect that jobs were emphasized. I think that Senator Sanders should be clear about what is ideology is, so far he has muddied the water.

[roody]

21. Oh, those poor, defenseless candidates.

[billpolonsky]

24. I mean really.....

...can we just get over it in 2019?


"Socialism is a scare word they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years. Socialism is what they called public power. Socialism is what they called social security. Socialism is what they called farm price supports. Socialism is what they called bank deposit insurance. Socialism is what they called the growth of free and independent labor organizations. Socialism is their name for almost anything that helps all the people."

HARRY S. TRUMAN, speech, Oct. 10, 1952


https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/truman-socialism-scare-word/

[LibFarmer]

26. When has Bernie ever helped a Democratic nominee? nt

[Doreen]

29. From his behavior this round I am

Starting to think he will do the same damn thing as last time when he lost. He will put all of his competitors in a really crappy light and if he doesn't win again he will have another temper tantrum and not endorse the winner until way to late and will not encourage his followers to vote for the winner. I have come to the conclusion that he is not a team player and that is dangerous. We already have a non team player and we see where that has gotten us.

[lunamagica]

40. i'd be surprised if he doesn't act the same way again. It may be even worse this time

Last edited Sat Jun 15, 2019, 12:04 AM - Edit history (1)

because he knows this was his last shot, therefore he has nothing to lose

[crazytown]

44. "the dame way again"

Perfect.

[Doreen]

67. I voted for him back then and after he lost to Hillary

I lost some respect for him because of his actions or inactions.

[grumpyduck]

32. I just love it when people throw out labels

and assume that everyone knows what they mean.

Given the ignorance we see every day, how many people in this country really understand what socialism is, or what Sanders means by it? Yet it can be a scary word to many, and therefore a weapon to Republicans.

[underthematrix]

33. Black women sre going with the guy who had President Obama's

back for 8 years, Vice President Biden.

BTW. Y'all need to read page 23 of Volume 1 of the Redacted Mueller Report. Seriously, just read that one page.

[BlueWI]

87. I believe there's still 15% national support among black women for Sanders.

The current polling favors Biden, but it's far from unanimous.

[Kurt V.]

34. no. there is a very important conversation going on right now world wide and sanders

is a part of that simply bc hes running for the most influential position in the world.

[Celerity]

49. then tell him to CORRECTLY self-label, there is NO advanced nation where democratic socialism has

EVER worked. Social democracy, YES. He simply cannot re-define a 200 plus year old academic AND social zeitgeist globally-defined term.

It is politically suicidal, especially in the reactionary US.

His damage from this hubris and wilful ignorance is becoming legion.

[Kurt V.]

54. the constant antagonist , in history, is the point. as a buffer to unreason based on greed

[Celerity]

60. Antagonism to unjust, rapacious power is a good thing, antagonism to reality and logic and deeply

set definitions is not.

[Kurt V.]

64. no. Antagonists. left right center have the same goal. to be a push on whoever they disagree

I'm not in that camp. i would rather get something

[Celerity]

66. I think you are too narrowly defining antagonism

MLK, Rosa Parks, Ghandi, John Kenneth Galbraith, Tiberius and Gaius Gracchus, Boudicca, Nelson Mandela, Upton Sinclair, C. Wright Mills, Socrates, Susan Sontag, etc etc etc were all antagonists.

[Kurt V.]

71. You're right. Yesterday i was reading bits from Homage to Catalonia and everyone

turned on everyone. That had been on my mind all day.

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. I urge you all to want something more like real socialism in healthcare - a National Health Service

Proper socialism doesn't just have the government buying services from independent organisations, that may be for-profit. It has either cooperatives owned by the actual workers, or the state, owning the providers. Like the National Health Service in Britain.

It's true that Sanders is not advocating something 'socialist'. But it would be better if he did. And others.

[Turin_C3PO]

45. I agree with you.

To me, Medicare for all isn’t nearly good enough. It’s still way too expensive. I’m on Medicaid and it’s pretty good, I don’t pay for much. Maybe Medicaid for All is a better solution?

[yaesu]

42. i could give a rats ass about what the fascist say

let them call us names, Bernie is our truth sayer!

[pnwmom]

52. But it's not true. Supporting Medicare or Medicare-for-all doesn't make someone a socialist.

And Nordic countries don't practice Democratic socialism. They are Social Democracies with capitalist systems.

[Politicub]

46. It's good Bernie has staked out a position on the far left.

It gives the other nominees room to declare themselves as moderates. I think contrast is good.

[crazytown]

48. I can think of little more useful to the GOP

than the Democratic Party becoming preoccupied with what socialism is, and whether its policies are socialist. Senator Sanders latest contribution, that socialism is FDR's New Deal, is perhaps his most corrosive contribution of all.

[Celerity]

50. plus a billion

It is a fucking Trojan Horse.

[Thomas Hurt]

53. IMO, It is misguided to try own the socialist label

as some way to counter the right's socialist propaganda and fear mongering.

[cwydro]

57. It almost seems like he's out to do damage to our party, but surely I must be wrong.

He has to know that using that word only hurts Dems.

[pnwmom]

59. Warren is as progressive as he is and she doesn't use that label.

She knows it will needlessly turn off millions of voters.

[cwydro]

68. Yep. Exactly.

He must know he has no chance and just wants to make a point.

But I don’t want it to be at our party’s expense.

[JI7]

72. Warren is actually more progressive and liberal

Sanders seems stuck somewhere just repeating slogans.

just look at his exchange with hickenlooper.

[MrsCoffee]

88. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

[Peacetrain]

63. The Democratic Party and Sen Sanders are just not a fit..

he is not going to get elected..but he can really set the place on fire.. and give us Trump for another 4 years..

[JI7]

65. maybe that's the goal

[Kahuna7]

76. I didn't want to be the one to say it..

But I can't help to think it.

[RandiFan1290]

73. lol

[Prosper]

90. Capitalism

Last edited Sun Jun 16, 2019, 12:35 PM - Edit history (1)

Is not the financial system of this country. Capitalism is not anything possible to make and take profits out of the financial system. If the NFL operated the way this country is run then one team would have the best players win all the games and take all the football's and quit. Those people know that an institution has to be agreed upon in order to survive. Winner take all is the biggest loser .