Serious, honest questions re: health care (so please, no flaming)

[Seeking Serenity]

I've heard many of the Democratic presidential aspirants (and many Democrats in general) say that "health care is a human right." And we've also all heard Democrats espouse "Medicare for all."

Medicare is really just a government-provided insurance program for the elderly, with the government as the insurer and payer (and setter of reimbursement rates/how much it'll pay). So let's assume, for the sake of this discussion, that Medicare for all (with or without supplemental private insurance being allowed) is implemented. I believe that, in such a situation, it's safe to assume that wait times for procedures, testing, and even doctor visits (or at least visits to specialists) will lengthen, maybe even significantly.

Here are the questions: If health care is a human right, is that right impermissibly infringed if one is made to wait to access that care? What about if one suffers pain or a lower quality of life or something similar during, or because of, that wait? Is that right infringed if one expires while waiting for a much needed, but less than a critically urgent, procedure? And if the answer to any or all of those questions is "yes," what is the remedy for the infringement of that right? The Federal Tort Claims Act? That act doesn't typically deal with infringements of human rights. Is there even a remedy at all? Is the declaration that "health care is a human right" more of a declaration of "You have a human right to health care, but only on our terms"?

I'm having a hard time squaring that circle, as you can see. Thanks for your responses in advance.

[Voltaire2]

1. I guess everyone arguing against MFA

has some kind of crazy good health insurance that:

Costs them nothing.
Covers everything.
And they never have to wait to see a doctor.

There is no reason to assume that wait times for doctor appointments would increase.

[Politicub]

6. This.

A lot of people don't have a great fringe benefits package through an employer.

[MarcA]

15. Yes, and in many cases that Employer is a Government entity,

which provides those great fringe benefits.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. With Medicare you do.

But, that's me. And, who gets diagnosed w cancer or something, and goes into the next room and has it removed?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. With Medicare you get a diagnosis of cancer and get it removed the next day.

We are going to need a lot more doctors to ensure all Americans get the same level of care as Medicare patients.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. If you can guarantee every American can get health care as good as a Medicare recipient that's great

We will need a lot more doctors.

[Indygram]

16. Does Canada have a substantial amount of far right wing goobers who will eventually regain power

who will unceremoniously dismantle ANYTHING Democrats do that does NOT have some semblance of bipartisan support? I doubt it.

Sorry, but it's plain stupid to put all of America's health into the hands of the government after seeing what this current administration does to try to DESTROY agencies.

Can't support single payer ONLY government run insurance with no private/employer options. No way, no how.

[unblock]

4. if it's a right in the political sense, then it's for the voters to decide

what constitutes fulfillment or infringement on that right.

but let's say we pass a constitutional amendment that guarantees every american health care.

the courts, ultimately the supreme court, would decides, through various cases, what infringements were constitutional, just as the they decide what infringements on the right to free speech are acceptable (libel, threats, inciting riots are not protected, e.g.).


wait times are a good example of something the courts would have to provide some guidance on. clearly if a delay leads to a death the wait time is too long, but most cases would not be so simple.

[area51]

8. "... if one expires while waiting for a much needed, but less than a critically urgent, procedure?"

Um ... you do know that people are expiring now from lack of healthcare, because they can't afford it, right? 45,000 people die in the US each year, which is 123 per day, because they can't afford healthcare/medications.

[Seeking Serenity]

19. So I guess that's the REAL question

Is health care a human right? Can it be so (yes, I know we could adopt a constitutional amendment saying it is)? Would we even want it to be so, given all of the unknowns regarding what constitutes infringement and how such infringements would be remedied?

Yes, I know people are dying because of lack of appropriate care. But even if we made health care a constitutional right, those people or their survivors couldn't make a constitutional claim against a private insurer or provider.

We could make health care a constitutional right, but constitutional rights typically aren't binding on private persons (i.e., you can't claim your constitutional rights have been violated if, say, I throw you out of my house because you're speaking and I don't want to hear it (1A) or if I start snooping around your house without a court's permission (4A) (there may be a criminal violation there, but not a constitutional one)). So if your insurer won't cover a medication or course of treatment, or you can't get in to see a specialist you need to see as a new patient because she's booked up for months with existing patients, you can't claim they've violated your constitutional right.

Many, many issues to be resolved, at least to me.

[billpolonsky]

11. Medicare is a human right

It is, as i read it, an aspirational statement.
Something like, "As a society our country will treat healthcare as a serious issue of humanity".

Through taxation everyone is entitled to the same level of health care.
You pay taxes, make an appointment to see your doctor and never have to pay for service.
If you want a face lift or a non medical treatment you PAY for that treatment outside of Medicare.
If you want to jump the line, for say a hip replacement, you still pay taxes for basic health care but also will have to PAY an insurance company for supplemental insurance.

It is an equitable system that gives all citizens access to health care.

[Seeking Serenity]

20. I'm in total agreement with health care being a right

As an aspirational statement. Absolutely. But a right as a matter of constitutional law? I don't know. Way too many unanswered questions and nuances and potential unintended consequences to wade through at this point.

[MarcA]

13. Vibrant,Basic universal healthcare provided by Medicare or Medicare-like coverage

with strong support from the U.S. Public Health Service. Supplemental
private, personal, NGO coverage. Wouldn't want total government-only
coverage because what if among other things rethugs got hold of it, it would
take time to get them back out of it. It is a matter of how to do it; to fail
to recognize it as a basic human right only acknowledges the lack of positive
human evolution.

[genxlib]

17. I think there is a lot of nuance to the answer

But i will add three important points

One, we need to ramp up the schooling and training for doctors and make it affordable to get the numbers where they need to be. That will take time but any transition to universal coverage won't take place overnight anyway.

Second, Doctors will be able to spend more time on actual care instead of arguing with insurance companies. I know they waste a lot of my time just to try and manage my family's health care without getting screwed. I can't imagine how much effort Doctor's offices expend to deal with all the permutations of insurance and the arguments that come with them.

Three, (and this is the key to me). I think we need to empower other healthcare professionals to deliver minor care to free up the Doctor's to deal with the real shit. I am talking about Physicians Assistants and Registered Nurses, etc.. My regular "Doctor" is actually a nurse practitioner and I have not seen the actual Dr in years. She is perfectly capable of dealing with minor maladies, infections, colds, prescriptions, etc. Anything more complicated than she is qualified for will get the Doctor's attention or get referred to a specialists. Instituting some tiers into the system would help to get the best use out of the health care professionals we have.

[unc70]

18. Your assumption is not "safe to assume"

There is no requirement that wait times will go up significantly. The number of providers and facilities is not fixed. It might take a little while to increase availability, but should not be a huge problem.

[Karadeniz]

21. Concerning wait time: the VA is a national health program. After complaints about undue

Waiting time for an appointment, Obama got the bill passed to enable vets to use nonVA facilities when their wait time was over a month or so...I forget the criteria. After the choice had been implemented for a year or so, the VA wait times were compared to the nonVA facilities. Virtually no difference. The nonVA facilities offered no improved access over VA facilities.