What Some Democratic Socialists of America See in Bernie

[kennetha]

An opportunity to build a truly socialist party!

It is our duty to take full advantage of this moment and run out the radicalizing processes happening in the formal political sphere, in labor, and in society as far as they can go.

Whatever the details of his program may mean to us, to the rest of the world, the Bernie Sanders campaign will be a referendum on socialist politics in the United States. It is a litmus test about whether a left program can be a viable project in this country.

If we fail, if we cannot win the 13 million Bernie votes of 2016 and go beyond them, this unique historical window will close. The name Bernie Sanders will be used like Ralph Nader’s: as an invocation of why left-wing politics are fundamentally unsuited to Americans.

By participating in the Bernie movement, we can multiply our forces, meet and build relationships with people who can run as socialist candidates at every level, plug into Labor For Bernie work to overcome the separation between labor and socialists, and transform DSA into something rooted in neighborhoods and workplaces of all kinds.

https://www.dsausa.org/weekly/a-dialogue-should-dsa-endorse-bernie-sanders-before-the-convention/

[TwilightZone]

1. Keep reading; another member opposes endorsing him rather vociferously.

"Today Sanders and the Democrats threaten to once again corral the rising radical opposition to the system. He has called for very progressive reforms–$15 minimum wage, health care for all, free public higher education—but, as he has repeated, he opposes the nationalization and socialization of the banks and corporations. He is about making capitalism more humane—that is his great attraction. But he is not about ending capitalism, which is our overriding necessity today if we want to prevent environmental catastrophe, end imperialism and foreign regime-change wars, and win justice for working people and the oppressed."

Snip

"We will find that we have created an organizational culture dominated by illusions of influencing or capturing the Democratic Party, rather than developing strategies for the destruction of the two-party system and the overthrow of capitalism."

Snip

"Supporting Bernie 2020 means jeopardizing our future as an organization angry at the Democratic Party, furious at the two-party system, and hating capitalism and imperialism. Let’s keep our hope, but let’s also keep our anger. "

Good luck overthrowing capitalism. That's a non-starter in our current political environment. No one, including Bernie, is running as an anti-capitalist, for good reason.

[Blue_true]

4. When people start talking about overthrowing something, I stop listening. nt

[CrossingTheRubicon]

13. You say you got a real solution, W-e-l-l, you know, We'd all love to see the plan

You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're doing what we can.

But if you want money for people with minds that hate
All I can tell is brother you have to wait
Don't you know it's gonna be
All right, all right, all right

You say you'll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You better free you mind instead

But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don't you know it's gonna be
All right, all right, all right
All right, all right, all right
All right, all right, all right
All right, all right

[kennetha]

12. A contentious bunch those Socialists!

But one thing they agree on. Capitalism has got to go and cannot be tamed.

[kennetha]

17. Bernie is a life long self avowed Socialist

He’s just pretending not to be one so he can get the Democratic nomination. Pure bait and switch flimflam. Don’t fall for it

[brush]

2. Socialism has negative connotations to many voters.

I'm a Democrat and don't intend to play along with repugs labveling our party as socialists who favor the state owning the means of production.

Now if you want to go with social democrat as in western European countries that are thriving, capitalist societies highly regulated and taxed to provide generous social programs such as universal healthcare and free college, then we can talk.

Words, as elections, have consequences.

[redstatebluegirl]

3. Sorry I cannot.

If his supporters would rather have Trump than vote for another Democrat we do have issues.

[calimary]

48. Yep. There is that.

[Squinch]

5. I see someone who regularly trashes the party that opposes trump.

That's all I need to see.

[Mr Tibbs]

6. "Democratic socialism" isn't "socialism".

[TwilightZone]

9. You might want to tell that to the DSA.

Some of the comments in that discussion make it quite clear that they don't agree.

[kennetha]

11. Head in the Sanders much?

Sanders is trying to hijack the Democratic Party plain and simple. He’s a life long Socialist pretending not to be able to tell the difference between socialism and new deal liberalism and you, my friend, have swallowed the con hook line and sinker!

[CrossingTheRubicon]

15. FDR would be spiinig in his grave knowing populist-socialists are trying to steal his mantle.

Liberal Democrats need to resist the attempts to take over our party.

[CrossingTheRubicon]

14. Yes, it is.

[Mr Tibbs]

19. Socialism controls the means of production

Sanders version of Democratic Socialism, or whatever you choose to call it, is based on tax funded social benefits instead of social ownership of the means of production.

[CrossingTheRubicon]

20. His "version?" LOL.

Words have meanings. The ideology of "Democratic Socialism" is well established and well defined.

Capitalism with generous social benefits is NOT "Democratic Socialism."

Sen. Bernard Sanders (I-Vt) seems intent on conflating liberal Social Democracy with "Democratic Socialism." He is either very confused or simply being dishonest.

[Mr Tibbs]

21. Yes. It's based on Capitalism

It's called a "Mixed Economy". Nothing complex or sinister about it.

[CrossingTheRubicon]

22. What you describe is not "Democratic Socialism"

Social Democracy and "Democratic Socialism are two very different political ideologies.

Even a guy like Sen. Bernard Sanders (I-Vt) knows the difference.

Bill

[kennetha]

25. Head in the Sanders much?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128712629

[TwilightZone]

28. No, it's not. The DSA is quite clear that they want to overthrow capitalism.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=17937

https://www.dsausa.org/weekly/a-dialogue-should-dsa-endorse-bernie-sanders-before-the-convention/

[kennetha]

24. I vote dishonest.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128712629

[BannonsLiver]

46. Good luck explaining that in a general election.

Americans don't do nuance -- AT ALL. And if you're explaining you're losing.

[Garrett78]

32. The DSA will be holding a vote on whether to endorse Sanders, and...

...the argument against endorsing him states that Sanders isn't a real Socialist.

Meanwhile, you've got Sanders and others conflating the Nordic Model with Socialism. Those who do so have completely shot themselves in the foot with an epic branding error.

[kennetha]

33. He may not be running as one

But he is one. He knows what socialism is and isn’t. He isn’t conflating anything with anything. He’s just dishonest and manipulative. He’s trying to hijack our party by stealth. Both sides of the DSA see what he’s doing. One side thinks he can succeed; the other thinks he can’t. But they both see the game he’s playing.

[Garrett78]

34. I was replying to the person who said Democratic Socialism isn't Socialism.

My point was that the DSA obviously feels differently.

Anyway, one would think Sanders would understand the difference between Socialism and what he actually advocates, and maybe he does, but he praises the Nordic Model (most definitely not Socialism) and isn't advocating for Government control over the means of production. Aligning himself with Democratic Socialism instead of Social Democracy is foolish.

Regardless of Bernie's understanding or lack thereof, there are many who clearly do not understand the difference. Even here at DU we frequently see posts from people who think police and fire and public schools are examples of Socialism.

[kennetha]

35. It isn't foolish

It’s dishonest. He’s a life long socialist. He knows the difference. The dude did a documentary on Eugene Debs, for example. He knows full well what socialism is all about. So why does he do this dishonest thing? Cause he thinks the rest of us democrats are fools who can’t see through his game.

[CrossingTheRubicon]

47. I've seen the amateurish "slide-show-with-sound" propaganda piece that Sen. Bernard Sanders (I-Vt)

made during his decades of working the occasional odd jobs (worst carpenter ever, worst "fiction" writer ever) and it would be an insult to documentary film-makers to call this a "documentary."

Hate to hit on a fine point when you've courageously made the bigger picture arguments well, but as a documentary film-maker who has worked on Oscar and Emmy winning documentaries. I feel compelled to stand up for my craft.

Sen. Bernard Sanders (I-Vt) is a life-long socialist. The record is quite clear. Anyone can roll the tapes of him saying so again and again.

[Trenzalore]

36. I think the socialist endorsing Sanders is good for other candidates

Most of the party isn't that far left.

[LongtimeAZDem]

7. We already have a party; the DSA needs to go somewhere else.

[kennetha]

10. They Should take Bernie with them!

[TwilightZone]

18. He wouldn't fit in, which makes his use of the "democratic socialist" label curious.

Though, no one seems to really know what that means exactly, even democratic socialists. Or Democratic Socialists.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/26/630960719/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-democratic-socialists-of-america

[kennetha]

23. Democratic Socialist know precisely what it means.

That's like saying Christians don't know what christianity means.

Bernie is just playing a bait and swtich con game.

see here;

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128712629

and way too many democrats are buying the con hook line and sinker.

[marylandblue]

44. Put 100 Christians in a room, and you'll get 100 different descriptions of Christianity

They may all claim to be talking about the same thing, but they are not. I suspect Sanders is trying to turn a right wing meme against itself. For years they've equated liberalism with socialism and said both were horrible. Liberals ran away from both labels and now we call ourselves progressives. Now Sanders comes along with a very liberal program, and says, "Damn right I'm a socialist bouga, bouga!" And people actually like that, because they want healthcare and a college education and a leader who won't hide from a label.

[kennetha]

8. What Democratic Socialist think of New Deal Liberalism

And the Democratic Party:

“Bernie has often said that he looks back to Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s “New Deal” for his political model. In fact, FDR’s New Deal of the 1930s–and more important the economic expansion of World War II—established the social compact that saved capitalism. Then, updated in the 1960s by Lyndon B. Johnson’s “Great Society,” it stabilized an increasingly crisis-ridden capitalism for another couple of decades until the Great Recession of 2008. The New Deal and Great Society, of course, were made possible by America’s global economic, political, and military dominance and hegemony by imperialism. The New Deal’s social Keynesianism morphed into military Keynesianism, which underlay much of American prosperity. That is the essential fact of the original New Deal.”

The thing is Bernie is just a con man. He’s no new deal liberal or democratic. He’s trying to steal our party

[democratisphere]

16. Keep up the Democratic socialist stuff and see where it gets you and US.

Jeebus H.

[forklift]

26. They see Robin Hood !!!!!!!!!!! nt

[forklift]

27. Have the Democratic Socialists seen

his tax returns by any chance? Where are they?

#whatishehiding

[RandySF]

29. As in government taking over the means of production? No thanks.

It's not even working out for Jeremy Corbyn.

[kennetha]

30. Not necessarily

They also believe in worker cooperatives owning and running factories and shops. Only the really big industries have to be state owned and run

[RandySF]

31. No thank you.

[Garrett78]

39. Worker cooperatives are a good thing. And definitely not Socialism.

This is the problem (along with bashing identity politics) with the DSA and its adherents. They give a bad name to what can be very positive things. Socialism is when the government controls the means of production. Worker cooperatives are pretty much the opposite of Socialism.

[kennetha]

40. Workers cooperatives are not the opposite of Socialism

in fairness to them, Socialists envision many different tools for “democratic control of the means of production.” Workers cooperatives have deep roots in socialist thinking. They have been thinking and arguing about these things since the 19th century at least. Democratic Socialists recoiled in horror often at the old Soviet overly statist anti-Democratic realization of socialism.

[Garrett78]

41. When people start defining a term in 10 different ways, the term loses meaning.

"Democratic control of the means of production" is much, much different than "State control of the means of production."

[kennetha]

42. You feel the same way about Christianity?

You know many different dominations it has, each with its own theology?

Defining socialism isn’t some semantic parlor game. There’s a concrete and long history attached, with many different episodes.

[Garrett78]

43. Yes. Christian is a great example of a term that's lost all meaning.

I get that there's a long history. When one definition completely contradicts another, that becomes a bit of a problem.

[David__77]

37. I'm hopeful DSA will firmly support the Democratic Party.

It’s a big tent party.

[kennetha]

38. They are not going to support just any democrat.

Bernie is the only one there is even a ghost of a chance that they would support. There is almost not chance that they would support, as a party, any of the rest of our candidates. Some individuals might. Some chapters maybe. But not the DSA as a corporate body.

[BannonsLiver]

45. Lets not and say we did.