Bernie. Don't go there. Just do not. Just STOP.

[Soph0571]

Link to tweet

Oh God, Bernie is on MSNBC replying to Maddow about being in politics for too long. He said, "If you look at history, there were arguments why black people shouldn't be president, why women shouldn't be." Dude. Don't go there. Just do not. Just STOP.

There are some comparisons old white privileged dudes should never make. Most importantly because they cannot be compared. There is literally no fucking comparison....

[Gothmog]

1. I have hopes that sanders will not get 300 delegates to the national convention

Without 300 delegates, sanders cannot be put into nomination at the convention

[ehrnst]

2. I have hopes that Sanders acknowledges that. (nt)

[watoos]

5. What right have you to make this comment?

I believe that if elected president, Sanders will do more for blacks and women than any of our candidates.

The notion that Democrats have to keep nominating 3rd way Democrats to win is what is getting old with me, an FDR Democrat.

[SouthernProgressive]

7. What right doesn't the poster have to make that comment? NT

Third Way!

Boo!

[watoos]

10. I have found that there are certain candidates

here at DU where the rules don't apply. I sported Tulsi's pic for the longest of times because she has been battered here. Bernie is the other candidate who gets battered. When does someone start bashing AOC and her 3 amigos?

Bernie and AOC represent the heart of the Democratic party IMHO. Hillary lost because of Russia, but she lost because voter turnout was low, young voters didn't vote. I see a repeat of 2016 if Democrats fall for the right wing narrative that Democrats are moving too far to the left. Someone give me an example of Democrats moving too far left.

[SouthernProgressive]

12. That completely ignores a majority of reality...

Last edited Thu Jul 11, 2019, 11:17 AM - Edit history (1)

While still attempting to claim a worldview. It also doesn’t answer the question as to your assertion that the poster doesn’t have a right. It’s really not a surprise that Tulsi takes a beating. She has earned it. That said, I don’t really go after her. Not much of a point in it. As a whole, people who know about her don’t want her gaining power. That’s not going to change.

You should try reading some posts about Biden. Talk about relentless bashing. He gets every bit the bashing as Sanders.

To think that AOC and Sanders represent the heart of the party is to not understand the party or politics.

[ehrnst]

74. +1000.

[redstateblues]

77. Speaking truth there

[mcar]

44. Try reading some posts about Harris too

This is DU during the primaries.

[myohmy2]

105. "I see a repeat of 2016 if Democrats fall for the right wing narrative..."

...again and again and again and

"..repeat of 2016 if..", I totally agree...you can make book on it...guaranteed

"Bernie and AOC represent the heart of the Democratic party..."

...heart AND soul...

...

[brush]

159. They rep that wing of the party. The majority of the party are represented by others.

[sheshe2]

106. Hell.

Try reading about the posts about Obama if you want to talk about rules.

POSUCS.

[ehrnst]

119. Take it up with Admin if you don't think the "rules don't apply" on DU.

[Gothmog]

9. sanders will not be the nominee

There are too many real democrats who have good memories

I will support the nominee of the party but I doubt that the nominee will be sanders

[watoos]

13. Not a smart idea

classifying Democrats into real and fake categories.

I voted in the primaries in 2008 for Biden, did you? I also said that Biden would have a tough road ahead because he has such a long record. He needs to do a heck of a lot better in the debates. It wasn't just Kamala that ate his lunch, Bennett gets overlooked. Joe just wants to run on his record with Obama yet Bennet pointed out that Obama/Biden extended the Bush tax cuts, that Obama/Biden gave us Sequestration that is still in effect today, because of the Sequestration, Medicare doctors reimbursements are cut 10% every year.

My memory is still pretty damn good but I have moved on from Bernie, from Biden. Our party needs a new face, our party needs to give us a woman president, Warren or Harris. Too bad our country isn't ready yet for a woman president and woman VP.

[we can do it]

15. Actual Democrats have a D after their name.

[Gothmog]

17. If sanders is the nominee, trump wins 45+ states

[thesquanderer]

18. That's not what head-to-head Trump vs. Sanders polls say. He's second to Biden.

Plus, I can't imagine too many 2016 Hillary voters deciding to vote for Trump over Sanders. Which means right there that Sanders is likely to get every state HRC got. So what's required to win is for Sanders to swing PA, WI, and MI... which happen to also be states that Trump won by less than the margin of Sanders primary voters who voted for Trump in the general.

[Gothmog]

19. In the real world, sanders is not electable

trump could use socialism to kill all down ballot candidates if sanders is the nominee

Under the 15% rule, sanders will not get any delegates in a large number of states. I really am hoping that sanders does not get the 300 delegates necessary to put his name into nomination. Last nighy’s interview did not help sanders and renews my hope that sanders will not reach the 300 delegate threshold

[radical noodle]

33. Biden dropped out

of the 2008 race right after the Iowa caucuses. How did you vote for him? Did he remain on the primary ballots in other areas?

[ehrnst]

76. Well, are any of the other Dem candidates who are not Dems when they serve in their job as reps?

Sanders is only a Democrat when actively campaigning in a primary.

At all other times, such as when he is voting, introducing legislation, cosponsoring legislation, speaking on the floor or any other activity as a Senator he is a self-identified Independent. Not a Democrat.

Just look at the voting records, or any of his press releases on Senate.gov. Or just call his office and ask a staffer.

He stated that he felt it was "ethical" to run as a Democrat instead as an Independent because of the funding and the media coverage that the Democratic Party has earned.

"During a town hall-style event in Columbus, Ohio, the independent Vermont senator said, “In terms of media coverage, you have to run within the Democratic Party.” He then took a dig at MNSBC, telling Todd, the network “would not have me on his program” if he ran as an independent.

Money also played a role in his decision to run as a Democrat, Sanders added.

“To run as an independent, you need — you could be a billionaire," he said. "If you're a billionaire, you can do that. I'm not a billionaire. So the structure of American politics today is such that I thought the right ethic was to run within the Democratic Party.”

POLITICO has previously reported that Sanders initially resisted running as a Democrat, but was convinced by his advisers that it was necessary."

https://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-dem-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/03/bernie-sanders-independent-media-coverage-220747

[sheshe2]

107. ...

[TreasonousBastard]

79. I keep hearing about us not ready for a female President, but...

if so, how did Hillary get 3 million more votes?

And that's with Russian interference.

My top three running happen to be three of the women.

[ehrnst]

109. Not to mention the rare instance of a party holding the WH for more than two consecutive terms...

Which may be the real reason so many Democratic men who are running this year gave it a pass in 2018, not because you don't "tever cross the Clintons" as has been posited both on RW sites and here on DU.

That's the pattern - when it's an election that doesn't look good for a party, on any level of government, that's when women candidates are put forward - or given that rare encouragement to run. Men don't want a failure on their record, and they can then point to the race and say, "Well we lost because of a 'weak candidate.' If I had run, well, it would have been a different outcome."

See also: Theresa May.

And then Hillary not only did the statistically unlikely - actually winning the votes for a third term party run for the WH, in fact more votes than any POTUS candidate not named Obama, she did it despite:

- Russian interference and propaganda that supported all her opponents,
- GOP voter suppression of Democrats in key states,
- suspected hacking by Russia of voter rolls,
- The Benghazi witch hunts,
- The FBI releasing a bogus charge weeks before the election
- the media creating a false equivalence between her and her corrupt opponent, out of a flawed sense of "balance."
- and TWENTY FIVE YEARS OF MORE FALSE SMEARS that those on both the Right and the Left swallowed despite being debunked

Not to mention, she did better with white women than Obama did in either of his runs.

And all any of her left wing detractors can say is, she expected people to vote for her because vagina, she couldn't even get white women to vote for her, so she was a losing candidate from the start and SHOULD HAVE GONE TO WISCONSIN.

[silentEcho]

126. This post does my heart good. And on top of all that, won by 3 million.

But no, she was a weak candidate. Thank you for your post.

[BlueMTexpat]

127. Same here! eom

[mcar]

40. Gothmog is a member of this board

That gives her the right.

What right have you to question her right to speak?

[nini]

46. LOLOL

His track record hardly supports that.

His rhetoric might.. his record? not so much.

[Cha]

69. Every right in the World.

[ehrnst]

75. You think people shouldn't have the right to say that they hope a candidate won't win?

[ehrnst]

118. So you support a candidate that you don't think "will do more for blacks or women" than the others.

I believe that if elected president, Sanders will do more for blacks and women than any of our candidates.

It's good that you can admit to yourself and everyone here that you don't believe those to be among the most important issues to be addressed by a POTUS. But, I have to wonder:

How do you square that with his statements, and their reception, at the She the People summit?

How do you square that with the NAACP's experiences with Sanders in Vermont?

How do you square that with his statements inferring that candidates specifically who are women and POC ( at least those who run against him/or he doesn't support), often expect people to vote for them simply because they are female or of color, and not because of their stance on the issues?

The notion that Democrats have to keep nominating 3rd way Democrats to win is what is getting old with me, an FDR Democrat.

The notion that any Democratic POTUS candidate who isn't Sanders or Warren is "GOP lite" or "Corporatist" is what is getting old with me, a progressive Democrat living in the 21st century, where there isn't a depression/universally supported war effort, or the ability to exclude women and people of color from many of the early federal work programs (avoiding the issue of racist and sexist conflict and allocating resources to a smaller white male work force that couldn't be replicated now). The fate of women who did work in high paying manufacturing jobs being fired and told to have babies, after the war when the white men returned, sparking the "golden age of labor" isn't something that I'd want to replicate either.

I'm more of an a LBJ Democrat, because he dealt head on with race, early education disparities, and got national health care programs implemented. The Great Society legislation lasted far, far longer than many of the WPA programs. And yes, I know about the rural electrification program, and Social Security.

[happy feet]

136. +1

[NurseJackie]

26. Yes please.

[ehrnst]

3. Yes, old white men have never gotten serious consideration as POTUS...or proportional representation

in congress or the senate....

When will they finally be considered fit to sit at the table among the leaders of this country? When will they finally, finally be able to break that glass ceiling?

Link to tweet

[Me.]

4. Bye Felicia

Just a matter of time now

[NurseJackie]

27. Yes please.

[Me.]

34. ...

[ehrnst]

85. I hope that there is acceptance when it comes this time. (nt)

[Me.]

86. Counseling May Be Needed

[ehrnst]

87. When one refuses any counsel that doesn't agree lockstep with them...

and doesn't simply parrot, "Yes, yes of course!! Brilliant!" it's unlikely.

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

6. I am convinced he will not get the nomination

Everyday it's something else that seems to be an attention getter.

[stonecutter357]

8. WOW !

[Amimnoch]

11. Because older white heterosexual males have been sooo underrepresented..

[betsuni]

14. K&R

[watoos]

16. Have fun bashing Bernie,

He is an old man with young ideas. I believe he just set another record with the number of contributions, was it 4 million?

I have moved on from Bernie and Joe. We have a candidate with very similar policies as Bernie and who is not taking big business, corporate campaign money, Go Elizabeth.

[TwilightZone]

21. Bashing? No.

Questioning his decision to compare his "plight" with those of women and people of color historically is not bashing. It's a silly assertion.

"Go Elizabeth."

Says the person with a Harris avatar as preference.

[The Mouth]

47. Meh, I really want Elizabeth

I just have Mayor Pete as a preference because I think the very idea of a gay man as president freaks out the cons far more than a woman. I think Warren is the most qualified person to *EVER* have run, since to me the economy is far and away the most important issue, and she understands it better than possibly anyone to ever even run.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

78. I agree with you on Elizabeth being the most qualified woman to run for President...

she clearly has the best chance to break the "glass ceiling" and would thump tRumpty Dumbty. Though I'd love to see Bernie be the one to lead the progressive revolution in this country, I could EASILY live with Elizabeth as our party's nominee, as I've been sayin for quite some time now. Elizabeth is awesome!!


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!! or
Elizabeth & Bernie 2020!!!
Either way, welcome to the revolution!!!

[The Mouth]

117. In terms of economic knowledge

she's probably the most qualified person who has ever run for President regardless of party or gender!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

134. Elizabeth needs to be on the ticket... period!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[ehrnst]

120. You have Mayor Pete as your DU preferred candidate because "it freaks out the cons?"

On DU?

[The Mouth]

131. No

Just in general.

I want to see him at least get close to the nomination; strictly for the weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. I don't think he has a real chance for the nomination- I think that will be either Senator Warren or Senator Harris; maybe a small one for the VP slot. I vastly prefer Warren, but will vote D, of course.

Just the fact that there is a gay person pulling (by some measures) double digit supports makes me smile.

[silentEcho]

137. It is sad that in a very important primary you are looking for chaos and destruction within

our party.

[questionseverything]

92. because jewish people have never been persecuted?

[ehrnst]

121. He's not talking about anti-semitism. Read the transcript if you don't believe me.

He was calling Swalwells comment to Biden, "You've had your chance, it's time to pass the torch," ageist - and he put ageism of old white male candidates in the same category as racism or sexism...

Eric Swalwell, who has now dropped out of the race for president, in the
debate, when he – and he directed it to Vice President Biden and his
refrain was pass the torch. That you`ve had your chance, you`ve been in
politics for a long time and we need younger leadership basically.

Basically making an overt age argument for why Vice President Biden
shouldn`t be the nominee and implicitly why you shouldn`t be the nominee.
You called that ageist after the debate. But I wonder how you grapple with
the substance of that argument.

SANDERS: You know, if you look at history, there were arguments why black
people shouldn`t be president, why women shouldn`t be president.

There were some people who are 90 who are a lot more active and energetic than people who are 50.
You have to look at what somebody believes, what somebody is fighting for,
what their experience is about. Just to look at age is I think missing the
boat in a very, very deep way.

http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/rachel-maddow-show/2019-07-10

First - I don't think that Swalwell's comment was about age as much as it is that Biden has had a very full career, both in the Senate and having a role in the WH in a historic administration , so I think that Bernie got it wrong right off the bat to say that it was 'ageism,' but that gave him an opportunity to say that somehow he's being discriminated against in that comment....

He said nothing about anti-semitism, nor was he talking about discrimination in any other aspect of society than that directed toward people running for office, because of one debate opponent's comment... But Sanders saw an opportunity to make it seem like he was being "discriminated against" as well, because he's one of the few old white men in the field.

And his attempt to try to portray "ageism" being on par with "racism or sexism" (which are an actual issues facing most of his other challengers) is what is exasperating, and quite frankly appears to be self-serving.

Is that clearer?

[NurseJackie]

29. Nobody is doing that.

[Cha]

71. HELLO.. those were BS' own words. Please

read again.

[ehrnst]

114. He compared people saying he was old to actual racial and gender discrimination.

Please, if politicians think they are exempt from criticism and yes, sometimes mocking, about their public statements, they don't belong in politics, no matter how lofty their ideas.

If one thinks that their favorite politicians are exempt from the scrutiny of their statements that doesn't turn out to be positive, then they don't understand politics, or they don't have much faith in the ability of that politician to endure the realities of a public career.

I agree that Warren is a far, far better candidate Sanders for many reasons: knowlege of social justice issues, a deep understanding of economics in theory and action, interpersonal skills, the ability to understand and articluate complex ideas in understandable ways, the detailed plans that she has for putting her ideas into legislative reality, the influence she has among her colleagues especially behind the scenes (Obama consulted her on legislation), the ability to change her mind when new data come in that show things in a different light, her respect of and reciprocal respect by her colleagues.

Where others say “we should have a conversation about that,” Warren’s had the conversation, analyzed the problem, and come up with a plan to fix it.

I think that Warren will take the trajectory of Paul Wellstone - another professor turned Senator. Once Wellstone got into office, he realized that many of his campaign promises would, in practice, hinder his ability to serve his country and constituents, so he decided that those were wrong to have promised - that he would not hire "beltway insiders" as staff or advisors, that he would only seek one term, that Single Payer was the only way to universal health care. So, he let go of staffers that while they were wonderful activists, they couldn't manage the procedural administrative duties of a Senate staff, and hired experienced ones. He realized halfway through his term that he could be more effective in a second term after managing the learning curve of the first term, and ran for re-election. He talked to experts and other people on the hill (Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton among them) about their experiences with health care policy, and decided that single payer wasn't the most efficient or timely way to get to universal health care.

Perhaps it's because like Wellstone, Warren is an educator which enables her to value lifelong learning, gave her experience with cirrucula requiring her to keep up with evolving economic realities and strategies, new students every semester challenging her to articulate and defend her ideas clearly, so she doesn't get stuck latching on to one particular strategy policy solution for the sake of a foolish consistency.

Her ability to change party affiliation after watching firsthand the GOP's economic policy evolve into something that was contradictory to what she believed it was, and saw what the fruits of those policies actually were shows an ability to critically examine her own ideas on economic and social strategy. and to let go of what no longer applied to her vision of economic equity.

That kind of intellectual curiosity and openess is what I saw in Obama and HRC - along with some other 2020 Dem POTUS candidates.

That is something I do not see in Senator Sanders, and that is the primary trait that changed my openess to his candidacy for POTUS as he became more familiar to me.

[BannonsLiver]

154. Oh, we are having fun.

No need to worry yourself over that.

[Autumn]

20. As usual. Carefully crafted edits churn the outrage.

Link to tweet

[Soph0571]

22. I understood exactly what he meant and I stand by this post completely

Old white privileged men do not get to compare the trials of some people asking if he is too old to stand with the real barriers minorities have to seeking higher office.

[Autumn]

24. I understood EVERYTHING he said to Rachel, not just what she selected and I consider Hawaii D to

be a troll and her tweet to be bullshit and completely the opposite of what she said. The whole point he made was very valid.

Link to tweet

?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

39. Gotta fire up the outrage Wurlitzer somehow. Lol.

[Autumn]

43. I see that Lobster guy is still grifting.

I saw the same post that was posted here years ago. Living on a couch in a boarding house. Need money!

Living in a van down by the river was already taken

[JudyM]

64. The outrage Wurlitzer. Ain't that the truth.

[BannonsLiver]

155. Like you do about the DNC and the "establishment".

The funny part is you actually think you’re different.

[Celerity]

53. as you know, I am no fan of Bernie (for a multitude of reasons) but this tweet in the OP is a

dodgy hit job (by the tweeter), and totally misrepresents what Sanders was saying via a partial pull quote. Familiar trolls (I know some from their trying to absolutely smear Buttigieg with outright lies and similar chopped and diced misrepresentations) also showed up down-line in the feed as well. Twitter is a sewer no matter who you support. This rotter (Ragnarok Lobster) is one of the worst, he is a vile homophobe and misogynist but seems to not just get a pass, but cheered on here.

Here is the actual video

Sanders pushes back on ageism: Look at the totality of the person

Senator Bernie Sanders, 2020 Democratic candidate for president, talks with Rachel Maddow about he thinks Eric Swalwell's "pass the torch" remarks at the first Democratic debate were ageist, and why youth alone is not an automatic qualification for leadership.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/sanders-pushes-back-on-ageism-look-at-the-totality-of-the-person-63630917888

[Autumn]

55. I know your not and I respect you for being truthful.

There are certain people who have nothing to do but post lies about Bernie. The last one was a lie that he would not close detention facilities. As always it got the faithful excited and on a delightful bash. The reporter's Tweet had a mistake in it later corrected but they loved that thread. They hate those that they see as a threat

Yes, that Lobster is a lazy grifter with quite the fan club here. Tells you all you need to know when people support a nasty piece of work who calls a 9-year-old girl with Down Syndrome a slut.

[ehrnst]

124. Swallwell's comment wasn't about or to anyone but Biden. It concerned Biden's career as a Senator

and as VP in a very historic White House. Aslo, Biden could have run in 2016, but didn't.

I think that he spun Swallwell's comment in an effort to portray himself, as one of the few old white men in the field, as facing discrimination comparable to several of his opponents (one who is neck and neck with him) who have actually faced racism and/or sexism in their political careers.

Which is what the OP is responding to.

[Celerity]

128. Maddow was the one who drew the comparison with her question

http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/rachel-maddow-show/2019-07-10

MADDOW: We`re back with Vermont senator and 2020 Democratic presidential

candidate, Bernie Sanders.



Senator, thank you again for sticking with us.



SANDERS: My pleasure.



MADDOW: The last question for you and it is a little bit of sticky wicket

and I do not want you to be annoyed for asking. But it is the thing –

when I talked to people about having on the show today, it was the number

one thing people wanted me to ask you about, which was the issue raised by

Eric Swalwell, who has now dropped out of the race for president, in the

debate, when he – and he directed it to Vice President Biden and his

refrain was pass the torch. That you`ve had your chance, you`ve been in

politics for a long time and we need younger leadership basically.



Basically making an overt age argument for why Vice President Biden

shouldn`t be the nominee and implicitly why you shouldn`t be the nominee.

You called that ageist after the debate. But I wonder how you grapple with

the substance of that argument.



SANDERS: You know, if you look at history, there were arguments why black

people shouldn`t be president, why women shouldn`t be president. I think

you have to look at the totality of the person. There were some people who

are 90 who are a lot more active and energetic than people who are 50.



You have to look at what somebody believes, what somebody is fighting for,

what their experience is about. Just to look at age is I think missing the

boat in a very, very deep way.



MADDOW: But he is talking about length of experience in the political

system.



SANDERS: Yes.



MADDOW: I mean, you`ve been in public office since before Eric Swalwell

was born. I mean, he`s saying, people who have been in the system, who`ve

been trying all this time to make change, you need to get out of the way so

that new voices can (INAUDIBLE).



SANDERS: And what is his – those people`s positions? Do they believe in

Medicare-for-All? Have they fought to raise the minimum wage? Have they

been a leader in tackling the issues of climate change? Have they been on

picket lines their whole life standing with working people, been active in

the women`s movement, active in the gay movement?



In other words, it`s just not good enough to say, hey, I`m young. Pass me

the torch.



You`ve got to tell me what you stand for, what your vision of America is.

And I think that that is just not a satisfactory explanation.



MADDOW: Senator Sanders, it`s great to have you here.



SANDERS: Good to be with you.



MADDOW: Come back soon.



SANDERS: OK.



MADDOW: We`ll be right back. Stay with us.



(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[ehrnst]

132. She was also describing what people wanted her to ask him about...

when I talked to people about having on the show today, it was the number

one thing people wanted me to ask you about, which was the issue raised by

Eric Swalwell, who has now dropped out of the race for president, in the

debate, when he – and he directed it to Vice President Biden and his

refrain was pass the torch. That you`ve had your chance, you`ve been in

politics for a long time and we need younger leadership basically.

This should also be noted that Maddow rebutted Bernie's characterization that Swallwell's statement was espousing people "just to look at age," and ignoring/not referring to Biden's career.

You have to look at what somebody believes, what somebody is fighting for,
what their experience is about. Just to look at age is I think missing the
boat in a very, very deep way.

MADDOW: But he is talking about length of experience in the political
system.

SANDERS: Yes.

[Celerity]

140. then she rebutted her own inference (which came via her own question)

I personally think that Swalwell meant more length of time than age specifically, but it all has been conflated (first by Bernie, but then by the question too.)

that said

one thing people wanted me to ask you about

Is a simple turn of phrase,and Maddow, if she did not want to do it, certainly did not have to posit the question in such a way (if, as you seem to infer, it was not her true feelings) as to imply or insinuate it also WAS possibly about his and Biden's age, which did give Bernie an opening.


I do not support Bernie, I think he is in the process of doing major damage to our party with his false self-labelling as a dem soc (which allows Rump and the Rethugs to cast that label onto all our candidates and all our programme proposals, when they clearly are NOT socialist), so you are preaching to the choir in terms of trying to cast him in a negative light. I just find this entire OP to be an unfruitful, spun up way to go about countering Sanders.

[ehrnst]

142. So when Maddow rebuts rebuts his characterization that Swalwell was *only* talking about age

and ignoring experience, she doesn't mean it?

SANDERS: You have to look at what somebody believes, what somebody is fighting for,
what their experience is about. Just to look at age is I think missing the
boat in a very, very deep way.

MADDOW: But he is talking about length of experience in the political
system.

SANDERS: Yes.

Then when Maddow goes on to talk about how Swalwell was talking about experience, Sanders then tries to change the topic to his talking points, and then repeats the accusation Swalwell is ignoring Biden's experience, not referring to it, and is therefore ageist.

MADDOW: I mean, you`ve been in public office since before Eric Swalwell
was born. I mean, he`s saying, people who have been in the system, who`ve
been trying all this time to make change, you need to get out of the way so
that new voices can (INAUDIBLE).

SANDERS: And what is his – those people`s positions? Do they believe in
Medicare-for-All? Have they fought to raise the minimum wage? Have they
been a leader in tackling the issues of climate change? Have they been on
picket lines their whole life standing with working people, been active in
the women`s movement, active in the gay movement?

In other words, it`s just not good enough to say, hey, I`m young. Pass me
the torch.

Are you saying that correcting people on what Bernie actually said is "casting him in a negative light" and "preaching to the choir" - as though my posts are just about getting people to "commiserate" about Sanders?

I'm talking about what was actually said in the interview, not who is or is not supporting Bernie, "bashing" Bernie or "defending" Swallwell or whether Biden is "too old" or any of that. This is about getting to the root of what was said, and what wasn't said. People here are misrepresenting what was said without even looking at the transcript.

Facts matter to me.

Is that clearer?

[silentEcho]

145. Active in the woman's movement? No, not at all.

[silentEcho]

152. Sanders states he was active in woman's movement. He wasn't and is not active in WM

SANDERS: And what is his – those people`s positions? Do they believe in
Medicare-for-All? Have they fought to raise the minimum wage? Have they
been a leader in tackling the issues of climate change? Have they been on
picket lines their whole life standing with working people, been active in
the women`s movement, active in the gay movement?

[ehrnst]

157. Ah, I see now.

[Celerity]

147. again, Maddow brought it up first, I get you do not like that, as it does fit the narrative

you are trying to sell. I simply disagree with the angle you are taking.


Maddow asked BOTH things (age and experience ie. too long in office). Bernie went into depth on why he thought the 'experience' (too long in office) was not valid to him.

I actually agree that Swalwell meant too long in office (with a wee hint of 'too old' inferred). Maddow fed into that 'too old' angel with her question (whether she used the rationale of 'I talked to people about having on the show today, it was the number one thing people wanted me to ask you about' or not, as that qualifier changes nothing, it is her show, she decides the questions). She asked it, giving Bernie that opening, then she also challenged him on it being simply about being in office too long, which Sanders replied to as well.


This entire thing is becoming tiresomely pedantic, and I am done. I am not going to change your mind, nor are you going to change mine. Other posters can decide who they agree with.

MADDOW: The last question for you and it is a little bit of sticky wicket

and I do not want you to be annoyed for asking. But it is the thing –

when I talked to people about having on the show today, it was the number

one thing people wanted me to ask you about, which was the issue raised by

Eric Swalwell, who has now dropped out of the race for president, in the

debate, when he – and he directed it to Vice President Biden and his

refrain was pass the torch. That you`ve had your chance, you`ve been in

politics for a long time and we need younger leadership basically.



Basically making an overt age argument for why Vice President Biden

shouldn`t be the nominee and implicitly why you shouldn`t be the nominee.

You called that ageist after the debate. But I wonder how you grapple with

the substance of that argument.



SANDERS: You know, if you look at history, there were arguments why black

people shouldn`t be president, why women shouldn`t be president. I think

you have to look at the totality of the person. There were some people who

are 90 who are a lot more active and energetic than people who are 50.



You have to look at what somebody believes, what somebody is fighting for,

what their experience is about. Just to look at age is I think missing the

boat in a very, very deep way.



MADDOW: But he is talking about length of experience in the political

system.



SANDERS: Yes.



MADDOW: I mean, you`ve been in public office since before Eric Swalwell

was born. I mean, he`s saying, people who have been in the system, who`ve

been trying all this time to make change, you need to get out of the way so

that new voices can (INAUDIBLE).



SANDERS: And what is his – those people`s positions? Do they believe in

Medicare-for-All? Have they fought to raise the minimum wage? Have they

been a leader in tackling the issues of climate change? Have they been on

picket lines their whole life standing with working people, been active in

the women`s movement, active in the gay movement?



In other words, it`s just not good enough to say, hey, I`m young. Pass me

the torch.



You`ve got to tell me what you stand for, what your vision of America is.

And I think that that is just not a satisfactory explanation.

[ehrnst]

158. So, now I'm the one "trying to sell a narrative..."

Maddow made it clear that she thought Swalwell was talking about Biden's experience, and length of career, and not, as Bernie stated, just about trashing older candidates. And Bernie doubled down on his 'narrative' of candidates his age being 'persecuted' on par with racism and sexism by once again insinuating that an opponent was putting forth a ludicrous outrageously shallow and unfounded reason to vote for them.

In other words, it`s just not good enough to say, hey, I`m young. Pass me the torch.

He says it right there... Swalwell wants people to ignore Bidens experience and accomplishments, and vote for him for no good reason, just that he's younger.

That's the narrative that I'm talking about, that is the point of this discussion, that trusty backhanded accusation that he has made before - any candidate opposing him that isn't an old white male is likely to expect you to vote for them - not on the basis of their experience, or acheivement, but ONLY because of race, or gender. This entire ongoing insinuation is what is becoming tiresomely pedantic,

"It's not good enough for somebody to say 'hey I'm a Latina vote for me' that is not good enough.

"It is not good enough for somebody to say, 'I'm a woman, vote for me.' No That is not good enough."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/21/sanders-identity-politics/94221972/

His own words. Over and over again. That's the 'narrative' that his supporters are trying to deny in this interview.

And no, I don't care if you support Bernie or not, and your insinuation that this is simply 'Bernie bashing" and "preaching" to the 'choir' of those who don't support him is "really pendantic and tiresome," and indicates a preferred narrative of your own.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

80. You're spot on as usual Autumn...but then, some never miss an opportunity to bash Bernie...

just tells you he's over the target in promoting his consistent progressive agenda to secure economic justice for all.


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[Go Vols]

93. +1

[Autumn]

97. Good to see you. I missed your posts.

[ehrnst]

123. Yes, Bernie is exempt from any critiques of his statements but positive ones.

Anything but praise is "bashing!!!"

[ehrnst]

125. Actually, Amanda B. Reckonwith has the bullshit tweet.

Maddow wasn't asking Sanders to comment about about people saying HE's too old to be President. And she stated that she asked it because people who thought that Swallwell's comment addressed not only Biden's career, but his age, wanted to hear why Sanders claimed it was "ageist."

She asked Sanders about his claim that something that Eric Swallwell said to BIDEN during the debate: "You've had your chance, it's time to pass the torch" was ageist. Which actually most took to be a comment about Biden having an extensive career in the Sen and a role as VP in a historic white house. And that Biden could have run in 2016, but gave it a pass.

If you recall, Swallwell's comment not directed at, nor did it refer to Sanders, but apparently Sanders thinks it was. Nor did Maddow ask Sanders what he thought of people 'saying HE was to old to be president..."

Let's just take a look at the transcript, shall we?

MADDOW: The last question for you and it is a little bit of sticky wicket
and I do not want you to be annoyed for asking. But it is the thing –
when I talked to people about having on the show today, it was the number
one thing people wanted me to ask you about, which was the issue raised by
Eric Swalwell, who has now dropped out of the race for president, in the
debate, when he – and he directed it to Vice President Biden and his
refrain was pass the torch. That you`ve had your chance, you`ve been in
politics for a long time and we need younger leadership basically.

Basically making an overt age argument for why Vice President Biden
shouldn`t be the nominee and implicitly why you shouldn`t be the nominee.
You called that ageist after the debate. But I wonder how you grapple with
the substance of that argument.

SANDERS: You know, if you look at history, there were arguments why black
people shouldn`t be president, why women shouldn`t be president.

There were some people who are 90 who are a lot more active and energetic than people who are 50.
You have to look at what somebody believes, what somebody is fighting for,
what their experience is about. Just to look at age is I think missing the
boat in a very, very deep way.

MADDOW: But he is talking about length of experience in the political system.

SANDERS: Yes.

http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/rachel-maddow-show/2019-07-10

So Sanders is not only claiming that Swallwell's statement wasn't addressing Biden's extensive career at all, but "just looking at age" and was therefore Swallwell saying the very same about any candidate his age or older. Which means that he was actually also saying that Bernie was too old to be POTUS.

And then went on to use that to claim to put forth the notion that he, as an older white male candidate, was the subject of discrimination comparable with racism and/or sexism which is actually being faced by several of his opponents, incidentally one who is polling right along with him.

He has stated in the past that he believes that some women and people of color running for office have expected people to vote for them 'simply because they are latina/woman' etc.

So the exasperation that people have over comparing percieved "ageism" towards a white male candiate to racism and sexism against candidates of women and POC is understandable.

[George II]

133. Bazinga!

[questionseverything]

94. soph...jews historically have faced many barriers

the kkk would not consider a jew to be white

can't we stick to policy disagreements?

[tishaLA]

23. It's so trivializing of the structural impediments

women and people of color face when seeking elected office, as I wrote last night after he said this. It's also incredibly tone deaf, not unlike his mocking "vote for me, I'm a Latina" thing a couple years ago.

[Cha]

72. Exactly.. so tone deaf.

[NewJeffCT]

25. I'm not a Bernie fan, but

I'd like to see the entire quote before getting outraged.

If he had continued after If you look at history, there were arguments why black people shouldn't be president, why women shouldn't be. with "but, those arguments were racist or sexist and were complete garbage" or something along those lines, I think it would have been okay.

[Politicub]

28. This is his "all lives matter" moment. Remember Martin O'Malley?

Uhm... awkward!

I remember when O'Malley said "all lives matter!" at a rally at the outset of BLM. He was panned and never recovered.

[radical noodle]

30. I didn't watch Rachel last night

because BS was going to be the guest.

[Paladin]

35. I deliberately skipped Rachel last night, for the same reason.

I wasn't for Bernie in 2016, and I'm damn sure not for him now. The greatest service he could provide at this point is to bow out of the race and let for-real Democrats compete for the right to beat trump in 2020.

[radical noodle]

36. My thoughts exactly Paladin n/t

[Tarheel_Dem]

108. Ditto! n/t

[ProfessorPlum]

31. I don't think I understand your argument or that of HawaiiDelilah

the argument seems to be that you can't compare beliefs that some people shouldn't run for President because of some aspect of their identity they cannot change: their race, their age, their gender.

Is that what we are yelling "stop" about?

[KitSileya]

48. In politics, there' s never been a barrier due to advanced age, rather the opposite

Ageism in politics is in the *lower* age limits for elected offices - there's never been a stigma to being an *old* white man in politics. For Senator Sanders to put the questions people now have about his age making him not the best choice for the office on par with the real systematic, structural, and legal barriers white women and people of color have faced for elected office is tone deaf at best.

[ProfessorPlum]

50. the "on par" part seems to be putting the argument's strength as equally dumb as arguments

based on sexism and racism.

Do you see something in his statement that claims arguments based on ageism are as old, or have affected as many people, or are as serious in the world in general, or anything else except claiming that ageist arguments are just as dumb as sexist arguments?

This seems to be a strawman - Sanders wasn't equating ageism and racism. He was equating arguments based on ageism and racism as equally invalid.

[mr_lebowski]

51. Agreed (nt)

[dawg day]

59. The real ageism is the actual legal prohibition against under-35s

It would be interesting to hear someone point that out, because there is indeed no legal prohibition for older people to run.

Not to mention that under-18s can't vote, and they're the ones who are going to have to live the longest with the laws enacted by their elders.

[ProfessorPlum]

61. those are good, and undeniable, points

[dawg day]

58. Exactly-- age has never been a real disqualifier for holding office, unlike gender and race

And it is tone-deaf to compare his own situation (esp considering he's not the only over-70 in the race) to the centuries-- literally centuries -- during which time MOST Americans were legally prohibited from voting or running for office. (Most= all women, and most black men.... along with other minorities.)

It's self-aggrandizing.

[ProfessorPlum]

60. that's a stupid take on this

It's not self-aggrandizing. Sanders is not saying he has suffered like the victims of racism or sexism. He's saying the age-ist argument against him is as stupid and invalid as racist or sexist arguments against other candidates might be.

[The Mouth]

49. Ageism is still cool with some people

Old people can be bashed, or sidelined, or even mocked, it seems.

[JudyM]

63. As can Jews.

[questionseverything]

95. ty for saying this, i was beginning to think i had fallen down the rabbit hole

6 million jews gassed not a hundred years ago but somehow he is privileged?????

[ehrnst]

138. Again... when did Swallwell talk about Jews needing to "pass the torch" to someone else?

See my post here....

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=199267

[ehrnst]

135. When did Swallwell say that Jews should not be considered for POTUS?

Bernie was claiming that Swallwell was being ageist when he said that Biden 'had his chance, so he should pass the torch."

Then Bernie said that ageism, and that Swallwell was just talking about Biden's age being the reason that Biden should drop out, and that ageism was comparable to racism or sexism.... which is what many of his rivals for POTUS have actually experienced.

Bernie didn't talk about anti-semitism.

MADDOW: The last question for you and it is a little bit of sticky wicket
and I do not want you to be annoyed for asking. But it is the thing –
when I talked to people about having on the show today, it was the number
one thing people wanted me to ask you about, which was the issue raised by
Eric Swalwell, who has now dropped out of the race for president, in the
debate, when he – and he directed it to Vice President Biden and his
refrain was pass the torch. That you`ve had your chance, you`ve been in
politics for a long time and we need younger leadership basically.

Basically making an overt age argument for why Vice President Biden
shouldn`t be the nominee and implicitly why you shouldn`t be the nominee.
You called that ageist after the debate. But I wonder how you grapple with
the substance of that argument.

SANDERS: You know, if you look at history, there were arguments why black
people shouldn`t be president, why women shouldn`t be president.

There were some people who are 90 who are a lot more active and energetic than people who are 50.
You have to look at what somebody believes, what somebody is fighting for,
what their experience is about. Just to look at age is I think missing the
boat in a very, very deep way.

MADDOW: But he is talking about length of experience in the political system.

SANDERS: Yes.

http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/rachel-maddow-show/2019-07-10

And this is especially ironic considering his statements inferring that candidates specifically who are women and POC ( at least those who run against him/or he doesn't support), often expect people to vote for them simply because they are female or of color, and not because of their stance on the issues.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

82. Sad, but true.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[ehrnst]

112. Lord knows old white men face ALL kinds of discrimination in running for office...

But I guess when it comes to age, it's not "identity politics" like it is on issues that don't affect straight white men directly.

[The Mouth]

116. Not clear on what you mean.

"Identity Politics" is such a loaded word I don't think it clarifies, but rather obfuscates most discussions.

Ageism is another from of discrimination.

Discriminating against people on the basis of things they have no control over is always wrong, and people who do it are assholes.

Race, gender, age; to me anyone who lets any of those be a factor in the decisions they make regarding who to vote, or not vote for, is a piece of shit.

[ehrnst]

122. Sanders has dismissed issues of race or gender discrimination as "identity politics"

as opposed to "universal issues" like paychecks.

Ageism, in white men, anyway has never been an argument against a POTUS candidate in any way shape or form like racism or sexism.

That's what he was calling Swalwells, "You've had your chance, it's time to pass the torch," comment to Biden - Ageism - and he put ageism of old white male candidates in the same category as racism or sexism...

Eric Swalwell, who has now dropped out of the race for president, in the
debate, when he – and he directed it to Vice President Biden and his
refrain was pass the torch. That you`ve had your chance, you`ve been in
politics for a long time and we need younger leadership basically.

Basically making an overt age argument for why Vice President Biden
shouldn`t be the nominee and implicitly why you shouldn`t be the nominee.
You called that ageist after the debate. But I wonder how you grapple with
the substance of that argument.

SANDERS: You know, if you look at history, there were arguments why black
people shouldn`t be president, why women shouldn`t be president.

There were some people who are 90 who are a lot more active and energetic than people who are 50.
You have to look at what somebody believes, what somebody is fighting for,
what their experience is about. Just to look at age is I think missing the
boat in a very, very deep way.

http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/rachel-maddow-show/2019-07-10

First - I don't think that Swalwell's comment was about age as much as it is that Biden has had a very full career, both in the Senate and having a role in the WH in a historic administration , so I think that Bernie got it wrong right off the bat to say that it was 'ageism,' but that gave him an opportunity to say that somehow he's being discriminated against in that comment....

In fact Sanders has intimated that women and/or POC candidates (who run against him/ or he doesn't approve of, anyway) sometimes expect people to vote for them because they are not white men.

Sanders was speaking to supporters in Boston Sunday when he was asked how a woman could become the second Latina senator in history.

"It's not good enough for somebody to say 'hey I'm a Latina vote for me' that is not good enough. I have to know whether that Latina is going to stand up with the working class of this country and is going to take on big money interests," Sanders said.

"It is not good enough for somebody to say, 'I'm a woman, vote for me.' No That is not good enough," the Vermont senator continued.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/21/sanders-identity-politics/94221972/

So Senator Sanders categorizing comments about his age in the same category as racism or sexism towards other candidates is ironic to many, considering his statements concerning "identity politics" being a "distraction" from "universal issues."

Is that clearer?

[The Mouth]

130. Thanks for the clarification

And context.

As someone approaching 60, I'm fucking sensitive as fuck to anyone who thinks that age is anything but a number; they deserve the same reaction that anyone reflecting on race or gender as qualifications (or disqualifications) would get, e.g. a hearty 'FOAD'.

But in the context, well, Bernie is Bernie; I 'get' considering the economy as not only the most important issue, but actually the only issue that matters; not that I agree, but I know a lot of people of my age that just don't even process in terms of race or gender (yeah, maybe it's 'privilege') but view any and every issue from the perspective of economic impact. That's changed in academia since I was in University.

I don't know if 'ageism' has never been an argument against a POTUS candidate at all, I won't argue that race and gender might matter more to more people- I wouldn't know, I'm going to evaluate any candidate strictly on their economic policies. I was brought up to believe that the only color that matters is green, but that's the perspective of a white middle class political science major.

Regards, again, thanks for the insight and analysis.

[ehrnst]

139. I hear ya.

[Clash City Rocker]

129. Old people, fat people and Christians. Everyone else is protected.

[ehrnst]

141. Is that what you think "pass the torch" meant? Bashing old people?

Because Bernie claimed that was only about Biden's age, and not his long career in the Senate and in the WH...

From the transcript of the interview:

MADDOW: You called that [Swalwell's comment that Biden had his chance and now needed to pass the torch] ageist after the debate. But I wonder how you grapple with the substance of that argument.

SANDERS: You know, if you look at history, there were arguments why black
people shouldn`t be president, why women shouldn`t be president.

There were some people who are 90 who are a lot more active and energetic than people who are 50.
You have to look at what somebody believes, what somebody is fighting for,
what their experience is about. Just to look at age is I think missing the
boat in a very, very deep way.

MADDOW: But he is talking about length of experience in the political system.

SANDERS: Yes.

[The Mouth]

143. Maybe, or perhaps a distinction without all that much difference

Experience in the political system should be a *GOOD* thing. It means both that someone knows how things work and that they have a record that can be examined.

To some degree, I feel that it's *implying* that age is a potentially disqualifying factor. But I could be wrong, I'm sensitive to things possibly being Ageist the way POC are to dog whistles about racism. IOW not definitely , but possibly, and possibly in code. YMMV

[ehrnst]

146. Bernie literally stated that Swalwell was "just looking at age" and 'ignoring' experience.

Until Maddow rebutted it, and Sanders didn't regroup or say, "You're right, I should restate that..."

SANDERS: You have to look at what somebody believes, what somebody is fighting for,
what their experience is about.Just to look at age is I think missing the
boat in a very, very deep way.

MADDOW: But he is talking about length of experience in the political system.

SANDERS: Yes.

So it's clear that Sanders is claiming that Swallwell's comment "You've had your chance" was ageism, and that it's comparable to racism and sexism.

And then he tries to change the subject...then doubles down the Swalwell was ignoring Biden's long career and experience and declaring that Bidens age alone was why he shouldn't run.

MADDOW: I mean, you`ve been in public office since before Eric Swalwell
was born. I mean, he`s saying, people who have been in the system, who`ve
been trying all this time to make change, you need to get out of the way so
that new voices can (INAUDIBLE).

SANDERS: And what is his – those people`s positions? Do they believe in
Medicare-for-All? Have they fought to raise the minimum wage? Have they
been a leader in tackling the issues of climate change? Have they been on
picket lines their whole life standing with working people, been active in
the women`s movement, active in the gay movement?

In other words, it`s just not good enough to say, hey, I`m young. Pass me
the torch.

[silentEcho]

148. I thought Sanders himself called that establishment and campaigned on getting those people out.

Excluding himself, obviously.

[ehrnst]

156. Apparently. (nt)

[yaesu]

32. this is a nothing burger

which is a good thing because I'm on a diet.

[ehrnst]

88. Well, privilege is a wonderful thing for some.

For those that don't have it, not so much.

[TCJ70]

37. Discrimination is discrimination...whether that's based on gender, ethnicity, age, etc.

None of it is acceptable. Here's the specific clip with Rachels full question in it where she specifically makes it about his age even referencing Eric Swalwells "pass the torch" comments at the debate . Are we now suggesting ageism doesn't exist?

Also, after the quoted comment in the tweet, he goes on to encourage everyone to make sure they consider the totality of a person regardless of who they are. Is that bad now, too?

[MrsCoffee]

41. I think calling Harris an asshole makes for a horse shit post.

Not cool.

[SouthernProgressive]

45. What does Harris have to do with the OP?

And calling her an asshole when the conversation has nothing to do with her? Way to go.

[Vegas Roller]

42. Bernie should drop out

before embarrassing himself any further.

[mtnsnake]

52. The video in post #37 proves that the tweet in the OP is nothing more than slander against Sanders

because the tweet does not include Sanders' entire quote. If you look at that video, you'll see that Sanders himself never said anything to the effect of what the tweet implied he said.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

83. Situation normal!! I understand the desperation though to bash Bernie!!

Notice, they'll never watch the entire video of what Bernie actually said or quote him in full.


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[ehrnst]

89. Using his own words is "bashing?"

"If you look at history, there were arguments why black people shouldn't be president, why women shouldn't be."

in response to people talking about him being older than most candidates, as if that's the same as racism and sexism.

When will old white men get a break in politics? They are now persecuted just as women and black people have been!

[Go Vols]

96. It was in response to a to a statement that Biden is to old to run,and what he thought about it.

Ageism, also spelled agism, is stereotyping and discrimination against individuals or groups on the basis of their age. This may be casual or systematic. The term was coined in 1969 by Robert Neil Butler to describe discrimination against seniors, and patterned on sexism and racism.

[ehrnst]

151. No, even Maddow rebutted that Swalwell was also talking about his extensive career...

Which Bernie denies.

SANDERS: You have to look at what somebody believes, what somebody is fighting for,
what their experience is about.

Just to look at age

is I think missing the
boat in a very, very deep way.

MADDOW: But he is talking about length of experience in the political
system.

SANDERS: Yes.

Then when Maddow goes on to talk about how Swalwell was talking about experience, Sanders then tries to change the topic to his talking points, and then repeats the accusation Swalwell is ignoring Biden's experience, not referring to it, and is therefore ageist.

MADDOW: I mean, you`ve been in public office since before Eric Swalwell
was born. I mean, he`s saying, people who have been in the system, who`ve
been trying all this time to make change, you need to get out of the way so
that new voices can (INAUDIBLE).

SANDERS: And what is his – those people`s positions? Do they believe in
Medicare-for-All? Have they fought to raise the minimum wage? Have they
been a leader in tackling the issues of climate change? Have they been on
picket lines their whole life standing with working people, been active in
the women`s movement, active in the gay movement?

In other words, it`s just not good enough to say, hey, I`m young. Pass me
the torch.

[R B Garr]

102. +1, I saw his comment live and cringed. What a yuge gaffe.

The “arguments” against blacks and women were written in the constitution and/or codified laws preventing it. How utterly clueless, offensive and self-serving to place himself as a white man in those circumstances.

[ehrnst]

153. And he pulls out his old chestnut of he's accusing someone

(who is not) of saying that people should vote for them "just because they're... latina...woman...young...

Because, according to Bernie, anyone who isn't an older white male that he is running against/doesn't approve of is liable to do that...

MADDOW: I mean, you`ve been in public office since before Eric Swalwell
was born. I mean, he`s saying, people who have been in the system, who`ve
been trying all this time to make change, you need to get out of the way so
that new voices can (INAUDIBLE).

SANDERS: And what is his – those people`s positions? Do they believe in
Medicare-for-All? Have they fought to raise the minimum wage? Have they
been a leader in tackling the issues of climate change? Have they been on
picket lines their whole life standing with working people, been active in
the women`s movement, active in the gay movement?

In other words, it`s just not good enough to say, hey, I`m young. Pass me
the torch.

Again, and again... he sees such candidates as being prone to wield their non-old white male status as the ONLY reason to vote for them, not experience or a record of acheivement that rivals his. His status quo characterization of someone who dares to challenge him while not being a white male.

"It's not good enough for somebody to say 'hey I'm a Latina vote for me' that is not good enough.

"It is not good enough for somebody to say, 'I'm a woman, vote for me.' No That is not good enough,"
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/21/sanders-identity-politics/94221972/

[Mike Nelson]

54. Well...

… I know what he was trying to say.. we have "ageism" as a thing now... but, the history of the US hasn't exactly resulted in a shortage of old men as President!

[dawg day]

56. Was there some mitigating context?

I assume he was clumsily trying to say that people said black people shouldn't be and women shouldn't be and now they're saying socialists can't be, and they were all wrong?

He sometimes seems to have trouble hearing himself. And no matter what, the difficulties of women and black people in this country and the long-time legal and defacto suppression of their votes and candidacy are not a good comparison with how unfair it is that Bernie Sanders hasn't been elected yet.

Nonetheless, I think we can probably let the GOP trash our candidates... don't need to single out everything someone says for criticism.

[ehrnst]

162. When we don't hold our own candidates to account, then the GOP will in the General.

Bernie was claiming that Swallwell was being ageist when he said that Biden 'had his chance, so he should pass the torch."

Bernie said that was ageism, and that Swallwell was just talking about Biden's age being the reason that Biden should drop out, and that ageism was comparable to racism or sexism.... which is what many of his rivals for POTUS have actually experienced.

MADDOW: The last question for you and it is a little bit of sticky wicket
and I do not want you to be annoyed for asking. But it is the thing –
when I talked to people about having on the show today, it was the number
one thing people wanted me to ask you about, which was the issue raised by
Eric Swalwell, who has now dropped out of the race for president, in the
debate, when he – and he directed it to Vice President Biden and his
refrain was pass the torch. That you`ve had your chance, you`ve been in
politics for a long time and we need younger leadership basically.

Basically making an overt age argument for why Vice President Biden
shouldn`t be the nominee and implicitly why you shouldn`t be the nominee.
You called that ageist after the debate. But I wonder how you grapple with
the substance of that argument.

SANDERS: You know, if you look at history, there were arguments why black
people shouldn`t be president, why women shouldn`t be president.

There were some people who are 90 who are a lot more active and energetic than people who are 50.
You have to look at what somebody believes, what somebody is fighting for,
what their experience is about. Just to look at age is I think missing the
boat in a very, very deep way.

MADDOW: But he is talking about length of experience in the political system.

SANDERS: Yes.

Then when Maddow goes on to talk about how Swalwell was talking about experience not JUST age, Sanders then tries to change the topic to his talking points, and then repeats the accusation Swalwell is ignoring Biden's experience, not referring to it, and is therefore ageist.

MADDOW: I mean, you`ve been in public office since before Eric Swalwell
was born. I mean, he`s saying, people who have been in the system, who`ve
been trying all this time to make change, you need to get out of the way so
that new voices can (INAUDIBLE).

SANDERS: And what is his – those people`s positions? Do they believe in
Medicare-for-All? Have they fought to raise the minimum wage? Have they
been a leader in tackling the issues of climate change? Have they been on
picket lines their whole life standing with working people, been active in
the women`s movement, active in the gay movement?

In other words, it`s just not good enough to say, hey, I`m young. Pass me
the torch.

http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/rachel-maddow-show/2019-07-10

(who is not) of saying that people should vote for them "just because they're... latina...woman...young...

Because, according to Bernie, anyone who isn't an older white male that he is running against/doesn't approve of is liable to do that...
Again, and again, like so many times before, he sees such candidates as being prone to wield their non-old white male status as the ONLY reason to vote for them, not experience or a record of acheivement that rivals his. His status quo characterization of someone who dares to challenge him while not being a white male.

"It's not good enough for somebody to say 'hey I'm a Latina vote for me' that is not good enough.

"It is not good enough for somebody to say, 'I'm a woman, vote for me.' No That is not good enough,"
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/21/sanders-identity-politics/94221972/

[Princetonian]

57. Bernie said nothing wrong. Ageism is as wrong as sexism and racism.

Bernie is hardly privileged given he grew up a poor Jew in a small Brooklyn apartment.

[JudyM]

62. I agree.

A DUer above called it “firing up the outrage Wurlitzer” and that seems to happen far too often in our otherwise valuable community.

[YOHABLO]

65. Thank you for that comment.

[Cha]

70. Okay.. take away the

"old" and the OP Is spot on.. and BS is wrong.

[TCJ70]

73. You can't take away the old. The question he was asked was specifically about age.

Did you watch it?

[Me.]

103. +1

[Cha]

104. ..

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

81. 100%!!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[redstatebluegirl]

66. Just go home Bernie.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

84. Bernie IS home... right where he belongs, sittin among the top contenders

for the Democratic nomination for President. May the best candidate win... then vote blue, no matter who!!


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[ehrnst]

144. Who cares what he said in that interview!!!!! Doesn't matter at all!!!!

[silentEcho]

149. And what he really means is....

Consistently we hear from Sanders supporter what he really means like Sanders claiming he is not a democrat. What Sanders means is, he is a socialist Democrat.

[MarcA]

67. How many "some 90 year olds" are more active than 50 year olds?

There are reasons why they are seen as exceptions to the rule.
Let's give physical and mental activity (ability) tests to all Presidential
Candidates.

[ehrnst]

90. Who do you think would be the first to rebel against that?

Old white men....

[Tarheel_Dem]

68. K&R

[ecstatic]

91. Every single time he mentions black people

it's in an offensive context. Every. Single. Time!!! Do Nina and Killer Mike not hear this shit?! What the hell do they see in him?

[floppyboo]

98. guess it depends which filter you are using

I see Sanders is bumping up his FDR references. That's safe.
Now, if he were to start quoting MLK, the stuff he was digging into that got him killed, I guess the 'outrage' might be cultural appropriation?
What if an Indigenous Turtle Islander used the same quotes, from FDR or MLK? Would that be OK?
What if a Palestinian Woman used the same quotes, from FDR or MLK? Would that be OK?
Someone would accuse them of stealing the best stuff while shitting on the givers.

Identity politics was and is the worst mistake EVER.

In no way am I saying race/culture hasn't been weaponized as a tool of oppression. I am saying that putting that weapon in your belt increases your chances of falling on that sword.

I respect what Sanders' plan embraces. When all the dust settles, there will be less loss. More happy children.

[ecstatic]

99. I regret what I wrote

I'm watching the interview now and he is doing a good job overall and making some good points.

[questionseverything]

100. mlk knew it was the poor people against the 1%ers

[Lordquinton]

101. He does have some standing in this topic

As a Jewish man he has faced a lot of antisemitism.

[ehrnst]

110. He was talking about AGE, not religion, and discrimination of POC and women running for office.

Last edited Fri Jul 12, 2019, 10:23 AM - Edit history (1)

He was referring to Swalwells comment to Biden, "You've had your chance, it's time to pass the torch," ageist - and he put ageism of old white male candidates in the same category as racism or sexism...

Older white men have NEVER been discriminated against running for office. Putting himself in a "discriminated against" category along with POC and women. Of course, being one of the few old white men in the field, it appears he's trying to make himself just as much a victim of discrimination as the majority of his challengers, being women and/or POC.

And I don't think that Swalwell's comment was about age as much as it is that Biden has had a very full career, both in the Senate and having a role in the WH in a historic administration , so I think that Bernie got it wrong right off the bat to say that it was 'ageism,' but that gave him an opportunity to posit that he too was being 'attacked' by Swallwell's comment.

Has Bernie EVER talked about being discriminated against while running for office in his long career as a politician because of being culturally Jewish? He states that he's not observant.

So, no, I don't think that's relevant here, even if he was talking about generalized discrimination against candidates because of religion.

He has however, implied that women and POC who run against him, or he doesn't support, say "vote for me BECAUSE I'm latina" which is not only tone deaf, but insulting, and race/gender based criticism in and of itself.

Sanders was speaking to supporters in Boston Sunday when he was asked how a woman could become the second Latina senator in history.

"It's not good enough for somebody to say 'hey I'm a Latina vote for me' that is not good enough.
................................................
"It is not good enough for somebody to say, 'I'm a woman, vote for me.' No That is not good enough," the Vermont senator continued. "

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/21/sanders-identity-politics/94221972/

[ehrnst]

111. Isn't that playing the "Identity politics card," Bernie?

Last edited Fri Jul 12, 2019, 10:18 AM - Edit history (1)

To paraphrase the man himself..

"It's not good enough for somebody to say 'hey I'm 77, vote for me' that is not good enough."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/21/sanders-identity-politics/94221972/

FFS, Swalwell's comment to Biden that "You've had your turn, it's time to pass the torch" wasn't about 'ageism' it was about Biden's long career - both in the Senate, culminating with a role in a historic White House administration.

But Sanders managed to make himself a "victim" of Swallwell's comment, being one of the few old white men in the field, and compared "ageism" with "racism and sexism" that most of the rest of the field actually has working against them.

[robbedvoter]

113. and those arguments are?...

[ehrnst]

115. None that were ever, ever used against an older white male candidate...

Last edited Fri Jul 12, 2019, 10:31 AM - Edit history (1)

In fact, his 'ageism' claim refers to Eric Swallwell's comment to Biden in the debate, "You've had your chance, it's time to pass the torch."

As if Swallwell was calling him "too old" instead of referring to his very distinguished career in the Senate and in a historic White House administration.

But Senator Sanders found a way to make the few old white men in the Democratic field "victims" of "discrimination" on par with the very real racism and sexism that the majority of his Democratic opponents have actually experienced in their political careers.

Very status quo politics as usual strategy, actually.

[Bayard]

160. Oh brother

I saw the interview. Once again, something taken out of context. He was talking about his age.....as in, at one time, people thought a woman, or person of color, could not be president. Now, its age discrimination.

[ehrnst]

161. No, he was misrepresenting Swalwells's statement as "just looking at age, and not experience.

Bernie was claiming that Swallwell was being ageist when he said that Biden 'had his chance, so he should pass the torch."

Then Bernie said that was ageism, and that Swallwell was just talking about Biden's age being the reason that Biden should drop out, and that ageism was comparable to racism or sexism.... which is what many of his rivals for POTUS have actually experienced.

MADDOW: The last question for you and it is a little bit of sticky wicket
and I do not want you to be annoyed for asking. But it is the thing –
when I talked to people about having on the show today, it was the number
one thing people wanted me to ask you about, which was the issue raised by
Eric Swalwell, who has now dropped out of the race for president, in the
debate, when he – and he directed it to Vice President Biden and his
refrain was pass the torch. That you`ve had your chance, you`ve been in
politics for a long time and we need younger leadership basically.

Basically making an overt age argument for why Vice President Biden
shouldn`t be the nominee and implicitly why you shouldn`t be the nominee.
You called that ageist after the debate. But I wonder how you grapple with
the substance of that argument.

SANDERS: You know, if you look at history, there were arguments why black
people shouldn`t be president, why women shouldn`t be president.

There were some people who are 90 who are a lot more active and energetic than people who are 50.
You have to look at what somebody believes, what somebody is fighting for,
what their experience is about. Just to look at age is I think missing the
boat in a very, very deep way.

MADDOW: But he is talking about length of experience in the political system.

SANDERS: Yes.

Then when Maddow goes on to talk about how Swalwell was talking about experience not JUST age, Sanders then tries to change the topic to his talking points, and then repeats the accusation Swalwell is ignoring Biden's experience, not referring to it, and is therefore ageist.

MADDOW: I mean, you`ve been in public office since before Eric Swalwell
was born. I mean, he`s saying, people who have been in the system, who`ve
been trying all this time to make change, you need to get out of the way so
that new voices can (INAUDIBLE).

SANDERS: And what is his – those people`s positions? Do they believe in
Medicare-for-All? Have they fought to raise the minimum wage? Have they
been a leader in tackling the issues of climate change? Have they been on
picket lines their whole life standing with working people, been active in
the women`s movement, active in the gay movement?

In other words, it`s just not good enough to say, hey, I`m young. Pass me
the torch.

http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/rachel-maddow-show/2019-07-10

(who is not) of saying that people should vote for them "just because they're... latina...woman...young...

Because, according to Bernie, anyone who isn't an older white male that he is running against/doesn't approve of is liable to do that...
Again, and again, like so many times before, he sees such candidates as being prone to wield their non-old white male status as the ONLY reason to vote for them, not experience or a record of acheivement that rivals his. His status quo characterization of someone who dares to challenge him while not being a white male.

"It's not good enough for somebody to say 'hey I'm a Latina vote for me' that is not good enough.

"It is not good enough for somebody to say, 'I'm a woman, vote for me.' No That is not good enough,"
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/21/sanders-identity-politics/94221972/