'I love Bernie, but': Sanders struggling to persuade voters he's electable

[JoeOtterbein]

(The Politico article was written by this DU poster's daughter)

[link:https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/11/sanders-voters-electable-2020-1489146|

The Vermont senator is going all-out persuade voters he can win a general election — but Elizabeth Warren has made more headway lately.

By HOLLY OTTERBEIN 09/11/2019 02:02 PM EDT

MANCHESTER, N.H. — Virtually every poll since 2016 has shown Bernie Sanders would beat Donald Trump.

But Sanders’ aides know that some Democrats don’t buy it: Doubters just can’t picture the people of, say, rural Pennsylvania putting a 78-year-old democratic socialist in the White House. It strains their very idea of America itself.

“We still have to work to do,” Faiz Shakir, Sanders’ campaign manager, told POLITICO. “Amongst the Democratic primary electorate, in some pockets, there’s fear of how he’s going to campaign on Medicare for All: ‘Are people going to get nervous and run away from it?’”

Sanders’ aides have long believed that persuading voters he can oust Trump is key to winning the primary. It’s been a central part of their strategy since the earliest days of their 2020 campaign, and they’ve crafted a campaign tour, speeches and digital P.R. push aimed at winning the argument. But after months of work, they’re still running up against voters who support Sanders’ bid but just can’t see it happening, no matter what the poll numbers say.

snip

(more at link)

[comradebillyboy]

1. I don't think he's electable at all. nt

[thesquanderer]

25. I guess you're more evidence of the OP's point then!

Yup, Sanders has a way to go in persuading LOTS of folks on DU that he's electable.

[DownriverDem]

34. Me Neither

BS is not a real member of the Democratic Party. Somehow way too many folks do not get it. BTW Biden is our best choice regarding who can win the Electoral College. I wish folks would get that too.

[brooklynite]

4. Funny that I came to the conclusion he wasn't electable...

...without "the media" or "some Democrats" telling me.

[DownriverDem]

38. As a political junkie,

I respectfully disagree. Biden has an awesome coalition. His support runs deep. He can win the Electoral College. Biden running with a strong, progressive, Dem woman would be a formidable ticket. I want to win. It's a numbers game.

[Gothmog]

43. Joe Biden's appeal actually isn't a mystery

Link to tweet

Biden shows reverence for the most popular Democrat around, former president Barack Obama; others find fault in everything from the Affordable Care Act to immigration policy. Biden does not bombard voters with a torrent of multi-part plans; he gives them a few basic positions and defends them. Biden does not campaign from the neck up; he campaigns with his heart on his sleeve. Biden is deeply optimistic; his opponents think Americans are the problem, not Trump. (I don’t suggest that his opponents are wrong, merely that their stance apparently isn’t as popular as they thought.) Biden wants normalcy plus reform; his opponents want a peaceful revolution. Biden knows people want to be heard and seen; his opponents (with the exception of Sen. Kamala D. Harris) don’t fully grasp this. They want to “help," to pepper people with ideas and a to-do list, while Biden takes the time to listen to them. (Think of the well-meaning friend who has a thousand suggestions when you are grieving and you’d rather they just shut up and commiserate.)

This is the grouchy-white-guy-in-the-diner problem all over again. Reporters are blinded by their own age, background, education and geography. Instead of going to West Virginia diners to find the Trump voter, reporters should go talk to the residents of The Villages in Florida, the African American churchgoing ladies and the buttoned-down professionals in the affluent suburbs (the Romney-Clinton voters). These people have endured a noisy, offensive and intrusive presence in the White House. They don’t necessarily want a different noisy, intrusive presence — even one they agree with on substance.

Part of the “mystery” of Biden’s appeal would be solved if the moderators flipped their questions, as one smart Democrat not in the Biden camp put it. Instead of asking Biden or another moderate, “Why aren’t you going with the big, bold idea of Medicare-for-all?,” the moderators might consider asking Sens. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) or Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), “Why blow up Obamacare, and why don’t you trust people to choose Medicare if given the option?” Instead of assuming that extreme proposals are the standard, requiring the moderates to explain why they are such wet blankets, the moderators should press the super-progressives on questions such as: What makes you think that voters want to go through another health-care makeover? Why should poorer people pay for richer people’s health care or subsidize their college debt?

Better yet, ask the candidates to relate the personal story from a voter who moved them the most, or the last voter whose phone number they took so that the candidate could call later, or the most insightful thing they have heard from a voter. It might reveal who is talking at voters and who is listening to them.

[bahrbearian]

9. Bernie surpasses VP Biden in NEW New Hampshire poll.

Bernie surpasses VP Biden in NEW New Hampshire poll.

Bernie - 29%
VP Biden - 21%
Sen. Warren -17%https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/09/11/bernie-sanders-jumps-to-lead-in-nh-franklin-pierce-herald-poll-shows/ …

[DownriverDem]

39. Then

welcome trump to a second term. The county is not that far left.

[bahrbearian]

42. LOL

[ehrnst]

64. ...

Argument by Dismissal: An argument is rejected without saying why. The person who is rejecting the argument may have a good reason; they just refuse to share it. So we cannot assume that this is an error in reasoning. It could better be described as a conscious choice not to participate in the argument.

[bahrbearian]

65. LOL

[ehrnst]

66. An excellent example of the " Argument by Dismissal" fallacy that I referenced!

[bahrbearian]

67. LOL

[ehrnst]

68. LOL

[bahrbearian]

69. lol

[ehrnst]

70. Flattering, but I'm married.

And a little too smart for this...

[bahrbearian]

71. LOL

[ehrnst]

73. Lol.

[bahrbearian]

74. ROFLMAO you need different bait

[ehrnst]

75. Lol.

I was pointing out that the fish aren't biting...

[bahrbearian]

79. Lol

[ehrnst]

80. lol

[ehrnst]

60. Amone Democrats in a small, predominantly white population, sure.

But nationwide, he has to appeal to a much, much more diverse group, and not just Democrats.



And he's never been subjected fully to the GOP smear machine. That would change should he ever win the nomination.

[bahrbearian]

62. LOL

[ehrnst]

63. ....

Argument by Dismissal: An argument is rejected without saying why. The person who is rejecting the argument may have a good reason; they just refuse to share it. So we cannot assume that this is an error in reasoning. It could better be described as a conscious choice not to participate in the argument.

[BlueMississippi]

12. I don't need media or other people to shape my opinion

At the moment BS's writings and past videos are not known the the people because he has never been vetted and no major outlet has shows his writings to the people. Democrats have also handled him with kid gloves and not gone "there"

However, Trump and the republicans are already chomping at the bit to bury BS in that reality of his writings and his videos.

Trump gets a pass on his issues with women because he had never been in public office before and Trump's foibles are baked in.
BS's data will be new to most of the electorate and it will be shocking.

[BlueMississippi]

16. Joes' so called "gaffes" are endearing to most people

It makes him look authentic and unrehearsed. His so called "gaffes" are only touted by BS campaign. No one else cares.

[BlueMississippi]

20. Trump LIES -- Biden misspeaks.

DO NOT compare Biden with Trump -- that is not fair at all.

[DownriverDem]

40. Not me

I focus on who can win the Electoral College which means state by state.

[Cha]

50. No worries, Autumn.. We're Not Afraid

of what the treasonous assholes working for trump will or will not do.

[zentrum]

3. I think he's quite

...electable.

[vsrazdem]

5. Bernie is not electable is a right wing talking point.

[Amimnoch]

13. Really?

Can you name one single right wing source or leadership that that claims such?

I’ve seen the justice department indictment that show that Russia was as behind Bernie as they were for the Cheetolini.

I’ve seen many on our side question his electability. Gotta say, I’m in those numbers.

Do cite an example of the right wing touting this please, because I sure have never seen this.

[vsrazdem]

21. Then you must have your head in the sand. That is all we have heard ever since he announced from

the right. Bernie is a Socialist, he cant win. Please, Give me a break.

[brooklynite]

23. Can I let you in on a secret? (don't tell anyone...)

Bernie Sanders IS a Socialist. Because he says he is...

[vsrazdem]

26. Wrong, he is a democractic socialist.

https://www.businessinsider.com/difference-between-socialist-and-democratic-socialist-2018-6

[brooklynite]

28. Time for an English lession

In the English language, the modifier of a noun comes first. Hence "Democratic Socialist" is a modified form of...."Socialist". As opposed to, say, a "Social Democrat"

FWIW - Sanders gave his speech on Democratic Socialism about six months ago; how many people did he convince?

[TwilightZone]

31. Sanders has been calling himself a socialist for decades.

With and without the "democratic" modifier.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/aug/26/bernie-sanders-socialist-or-democratic-socialist/

While it's somewhat of a misnomer (he's not a socialist in the European sense, so I'm not really sure why he has referred to himself as one), the fact that he has done so for decades is not in question.

[vsrazdem]

35. Oh yes, the "scary socialist" label. Well I have been a Democrat my whole life and I

support his policies, so I guess that makes me and a lot of other Democrats soialists too. Oh No!

[comradebillyboy]

33. Here is a video of Bernie telling us he is a socialist:

[Amimnoch]

27. Good then it should be no problem at all for you to produce a single one.

Just one?

[vsrazdem]

32. I stopped doing people's homework 40 years ago.

[Amimnoch]

36. It's your claim, your job to back it up. Don't do my homework, but do your own.

Let me see if I can put this in a way that you might be able to comprehend:

If I make an absurd claim, such as yours above and say: “You argue just like Donald Trump”.

Once I make it, it’s either accepted by you, or it’s my job to back it up with evidence that Donald Trump makes ridiculous arguments, then refuses to back them up as you do. It’s not my “homework” to back up my claim until after you challenge the validity of it (like I challenged yours above).

Now, say you make that challenge and say “hey, i most certainly do not argue just like Donald Trump!”. NOW, it’s my task to either back up what I claimed, or accept that I’m incorrect and said something stupid.

Soooo, as an example, I could cite Cheeto’s recent use of the sharpie on the map to mark the hurricane that was never headed to Alabama as his evidence that it was going to hit Alabama. Then, I could back up my claim that “you argue just like Donald Trump” with evidence that both of you make a wild, unsubstantiated claim, then refuse to produce any sort of viable evidence to back said statement up.

So, in short you feel free to not do your “homework” and back up your ridiculous claim,

OR

I’ll just continue on considering your claim with no offer of evidence to be the bull that it is. Unless of course, you’re willing to do YOUR homework and give even a single instance of this large amount of evidence you purport.

[vsrazdem]

37. LOL

[Amimnoch]

47. That's what I thought.

Nothing.

[vsrazdem]

45. Sorry, not interested in breaking rules by posting right wing sources here. Do your own homework.

[Amimnoch]

46. What's your words again? Oh, LOL

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=273219

It’s okay if you have nothing at all. You was wrong. You can produce nothing at all to back up your claim. And you want to rehash what’s already been answered to you.

so.. in your own words.. LOL.

[Gothmog]

30. trump wants to run against sanders

trump would love to see sanders as the nominee. I have seen some of the oppo on sanders and trump would have fun.

[DownriverDem]

41. Sorry

I'm a proud member of the Democratic Party (Precinct Delegate too). Your guy is not a true member of the Democratic Party. That means a lot to folks like me.

[Amimnoch]

48. Exactly! Not to mention the claim above yours is outright false.

Poster couldn’t even cite a single source when asked to back up that claim.

[ehrnst]

54. Actually, RW talking points at this time are very "Bernie is electable"

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/20/18508880/karl-rove-bernie-sanders-could-beat-donald-trump-in-2020

"Leaked" from "Trump donors at an event"

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-2020-president-privately-tells-confidants-that-socialism-wont-be-so-easy-to-beat

Then there's convicted ex Republican Rep. Bob Ney:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287268885

[UniteFightBack]

57. Then why the hell is not in the lead and he never has been. nt

[UniteFightBack]

58. Once in awhile even those fucks are right. nt

[qazplm135]

78. no it isn't

now, do I think he's electable as in he has a shot at beating Trump? Yes.

do I think he needs to do a MUCH better job at PERSUADING folks who aren't already on-board? YES.

Bernie's biggest flaw is that he so believes in what he's doing, that he seems almost annoyed at the idea that he has to explain and persuade why it's right. It's plainly obvious and self-evident to him and those who are with him, that the very idea of explaining and persuading is almost unnecessary.

And it's why he can't build up much past 20% in this round.

[roody]

6. Those who canvass for him know otherwise.

[ehrnst]

56. Anecdotal data aren't as reliable as data gathered via

reasearch best practices.

I mean if someone was to say, "Everyone I know supports Bernie" that would be anecdotal, but not representative of a random sample.

This is a more robust sample:



https://www.wbur.org/npr/759574033/poll-democrats-most-like-warren-but-voters-overall-are-lukewarm-on-democrats-tru

[BlueMississippi]

7. BS won't win the nomination

so ... the issue of electability is moot

[Farmer-Rick]

8. Yeah and Trump was unelectable too. There's no such thing.

[still_one]

11. I am not a Sanders fan, but this characterization is a typical Politico hit job against him, typical

of Politico's style of reporting

I feel pretty sure his objective is to convince voters on where he stands on the issues, not on the vague, nebulous term of electability

What the hell does that mean anyway. It is a subjective term

[BlueMississippi]

14. I disagree...

BS's plans and policies are well known to the electorate. They will not be further persuaded to vote for him.

He only has his core group of devoted supporters and will not be able to expand beyond that. Anyone not in that core group is already being peeled off by other candidates, particularly Sen. Warren.

BS started out with high 20s in the polls and now he is nursing lower teens .. he will fall to single digits soon.

[Hortensis]

18. Sanders thinks I'm not much different from my Republican

neighbors, and he always has thought that. That's quite an insult, but to me repetitive insults and contempt for what I'm proud of are actually the least of it for a man running for any position of responsibility.

Fact is, if Sanders were our neighbor, we'd smile and wave a courteous hello when we saw him, enjoy trading anecdotes about him with others, and that'd be it.

And that IS it.

[33taw]

19. Bernie is electable. He may not get the nomination, but if he does he is electable.

[DownriverDem]

44. No he isn't

You can then count on trump winning a second term. No way.

[Joe941]

49. Not exactly no.

[33taw]

52. I disagree with you.

[yuiyoshida]

22. I am feeling the same about Kamala Harris

I wish her numbers would go up ..it has to be things she is not doing...

[Gothmog]

29. From the article cited in the OP

This is from the article cited in the OP

"I love Bernie,” said Gloria Hoag, a New Hampshire delegate, at the state Democratic Party’s annual convention last weekend. “But I don't know if he can beat Trump because he's so far to the left. We need someone who's a little more moderate.”...

Biden, meanwhile, remains ahead of both Warren and Sanders in perceived electability in numerous polls.

Sanders is facing a challenge for multiple reasons, Democratic operatives said: He is seen by some voters as simply too liberal to beat Trump, more the leader of a robust movement than a commander-in-chief. Republicans would try to scare center-left suburban voters by painting him as a leftist radical, skeptics of the Vermont senator have said.

While Sanders leads Trump in both national and battleground state polling, Biden is further ahead — which could be important to Democrats in an election in which they see no room for error. It's also possible Sanders isn't talking about electability the right way.

I do not believe that sanders is electable. There is a ton of oppo that will be used on sanders if he is the nominee.

[BlueIdaho]

72. Bernie will be gone by Easter.

He’s trending the wrong way and his message is being delivered by a much better candidate.

[Kurt V.]

51. K&R you must be a proud papa. 👍

[ehrnst]

53. Well, those polls have never taken into account that the GOP

hasn't gone after Bernie like they have other Democratic primary candidates. Quite the opposite.

I believe that they want Bernie to be the Democratic nominee - based on the Mueller report's findings, and the fact that GOP dark money superpacs ran ads with the purpose of helping Sanders - they were so effective that his supporters made them go viral.

He's never really been subject to the full smear treatment from the GOP. Yet.

Republicans pray for Bernie as Democratic nominee


I think that should Senator Sanders actually become the Democratic Nominee, they will then turn around and make him the target of their ads.

That would definitely change those polling numbers.

[betsuni]

55. +1

[onetexan]

59. if Bernie & his aides think they can persuade voters he can oust Trump, they are delusional

the GOP's scare tactic to their base is to cry "SOCIALISM". They are not going to change any minds.
Bernie's overused message is like leftover food in the fridge from your last party - stale and needs to be thrown out.

[Joe941]

61. A back handed compliment is still just another hit piece.

[customerserviceguy]

76. I wonder how Bernie's voice affected perceptions last night

Even Colbert got a few choice remarks in about that.

I don't think he did anything to arrest his steady slide in the polls. Yes, he managed to ding Joe Biden on the vote for the Iraq war, but we accepted Hillary Clinton on the same issue, so it's not a needle-mover.

[TomJulie]

77. I Was A Bernie Supporter In 2016.....

In 2020, I'm going with Biden as I really believe he's our best hope - unless Michelle Obama throws her hat in - to beat Trump.