Dear Senator Warren: we love our private insurancd companies

[question everything]

Granted, both are classified as non-profit. Not listed on the stock exchange, no shareholders to be satisfied. And both are locally located.

I had an individual policy for many years before Medicare and was quite satisfied. It was a "Blue" though it recently has started adding conditions.

Spouse chose the same company from the former employer, and after an expensive COBRA, for Medicare.

Spouse was using many brand name drugs so looked at a plan that would cover the drugs while in the "donut hole," and that would be more expensive.

Spouse was going to start in June. And then the sales rep said: listen, you start in June thus if you do end in the "donut hole" it would be at the end of the year. So sign now for the cheaper one and then you will see. And this is what we did. Imagine - a sales rep pushing for a cheaper product.

I then joined the same company but then Medicare, yes, the "beloved" Medicare, had to intervene. We had a supplemental plan that was called a "Cost" plan. But last year Medicare ruled that it had to change to "Advantage," which, essentially, would replace Medicare. No problem except that I found out that one of my network of providers was out of network for them. I don't see that many specialists but my primary physician, located only five miles away was out. So I changed carrier.

I get allergy shots on a regular basis so the first provider to be presented with the new card was that clinic. My mistake, not realizing that Medicare was now out of the picture, was to give the receptionist both cards.

And they have been submitting the claims to Medicare, again and again, being rejected, of course, and then charging me. And twice I visited the billing office and was promised that it would be taken care of and... nothing.

So a helpful rep of the insurance company - yet, that "horrible corporation" - called the office and found out that they continued to submit to Medicare and finally cleared it.

Another interesting point. I had my annual visit about my allergies and I always see the nurse practitioner (from my experience, they are preferable to the physicians, a different topic). I paid my copay but was surprised that the insurance company did not require this. How come? I asked. Because you saw a nurse, not a doctor...

So, yes, Senator Warren. No, not UnitedHealthCare that is promoted by AARP where the CEO's compensation was once $100 millions! But some of us do like and appreciate our private insurance. More so than Medicare.

Respectfully.



P.S. I posted it early on the Senior group. The accounting dept. of the new carrier messed up after the first payment. And I had records of everything. I could not talk directly to the billing dept. but the rep promised to look into it. But I was pissed and did my usual - fired a letter to the president. Within two days the president called me at home, thanked me for joining, apologized for the mistake and promised to look into it. That afternoon we had a message on our phone from the accounting person who took care of it. The company did open a "complaint file" and I told him to close it, that it was resolved.

[Sneederbunk]

1. You may want to check out executive compensation for your non-profit company.

[question everything]

3. I don't care. They work for the members

And Warren, with her $12 million net worth should be the last one to criticize others' compensations.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287245435

[OneBro]

27. A perfectly stated RightWing talking point.

Rich democrats and liberals can’t talk about CEO compensation because somehow that makes them hypocrites regardless of how they made their money? Total mush logic. It’s right up there with the argument that environmentalists- especially Hollywood types - are hypocrites for ever flying in planes or driving cars, private-schooled Democrats and liberals are hypocrites for caring about public education.

An open letter to Elizabeth Warren because you personally love, love, loved your insurance before Youknowwho came and messed it all up? Interesting. Do trust that Hannity and Coulter feel your pain.

[Hoyt]

4. So what, if they are doing a good job? Fact is that if you made their compensation $0, I bet

the average policyholder wouldn't save $5 a year.

[turbinetree]

8. Isn't that the truth......................

[Turin_C3PO]

2. I've had a way better experience on Medicare.

My private insurance was ok, but the docs were always fighting them to cover my expensive drugs. Medicare covers them, no problem. So people have different experiences with private insurance. I hope we can eventually abolish it (private insurance) but first we need to implement a public option.

[at140]

54. Medicare--Pre-conditions never a problem, unlimited coverage, all prescriptions allowed

Only problem is it covers only 80% of hospital bills.

[DrFunkenstein]

5. That's a Lovely Anecdote, But Insurers Are Bilking The Country

I'm glad that somewhere out there in the 327.2 million people who live in the United States, there are people who think fondly of the people who determine whether or not you qualify for a medical procedure or prescription.

Last year, publicly-traded health care companies announced $47 billion of global profit on $545 billion of global revenue in the second quarter alone. Add that to the $45.6 billion that 118 health care companies posted in the first quarter of 2108.

That was nearly $100 billion in profit from the first half of the year alone.

[question everything]

7. Yes, publicly traded. This is why we chose the ones that are not.

[at140]

55. Huh? Their profit is coming out of your pocket!

Publicly traded or privately owned, makes little difference.
YOU are paying for their staff, overhead, profits.

[question everything]

57. Of course! I do expect anyone providing a product or service to profit

Do you expect individuals to work for free?

But their first priority is to their customers, not their shareholders.

[jcgoldie]

9. Thank you!

Senator Warren is talking about addressing systemic problems at their core, not about anecdotal stories. I had an uncle smoked 3 packs a day and lived to be 102... we experienced a cooler than average summer here in the Midwest... and yet I don't think cigarettes are good for me and I don't think global warming is a sham. Anecdotes are nice but they have nothing to do with policy.

[emmaverybo]

26. Under single payer, you will not be covered for every procedure, test, or treatment. These will

have to be approved. Often, as in other countries, you may have to wait to start cancer treatment even. The NHS is so far behind in screening for cervical cancer that women can progress to severe dysplasia before their condition is detected. Elderly die before they can get a hip replacement.

Many in Europe pay out of pocket to speed up tests, get in for a procedure, or get a diagnosis from a better specialist.

More people are covered and that is important. Those who have had good quality private insurance or Medicare with a strong supplemental plan may see quality decline in some areas, however.

In any case, universal health care is not getting implemented for some time. In the meantime, States should have to expand Medicaid, Obamacare needs lower premiums and more subsidies, and hospitals and clinics can be incentivized to provide sliding scale coverage. Those who want to keep employer provided plans and retirement benefits provided plans should be able to.

A public option should be offered to buy into or in the case of low income, a person should be subsidized.

It ‘s a good idea to talk about how to transition to single payer and also about the raise in taxes that we will all see. Additional plans such as student debt cancellation, free college, GND etc. will most likely bring our taxes more in line with Europe’s.

[CTyankee]

43. So to follow up on your analysis, we need to start talking about whose wealth is being undertaxed

at the present time. Warren tells us how making the very, very, very rich pay more (after, she says, "you can keep a big chunk of it&quot but over a certain amount, they must pay more. Now, I've heard some younger conservatives tell me that they oppose the Warren type of tax deal because "someday I'll be wealthy and I don't want it have to be taxed so much." Then they grow up and get married and have a kid and boom! Reality sets in. They realize it just ain't that easy...

[emmaverybo]

44. Well for one, we need to roll back the tax giveaways. Biden has promised to do so as a first bit of

business, Rich should pay their fair share and they don’t. However, the math might still no5 work out to provide for new programs in addition to those existing that are broken, underfunded, at risk simply by taxing at the rate so far mentioned.

France levies extremely high taxes on the ultra rich and yet, still must tax working class to protect
all the great universal benefits they provide. This has led to unrest as shown on the yellow-jacket
protests. Of course immigration has had an impact on systems. In turn, protestors blame immigrants and we have the rise of fascism. Our system though it should accommodate at least 11 million new citizens, won’t be stretched to the degree that other countries’ benefits have been.

I am all for discussing taxing the rich more fairly. But Bernie is right. More social democracy will
be shared financially, with middle class, Eve; lower middle class taxes being raised.

[Kentonio]

50. I live in Europe

..and that stuff about the elderly dying before they can get hip replacements etc is complete crap. The NHS isn't perfect (especially after having its funding cut by 10 years of Tory assholes), but it provides high quality and fairly fast care, with absolutely zero paperwork to fill out, approvals to wait for, insurance crap to have to deal with etc. Most of the time you literally just walk in, get treated and leave again.

The healthcare experience under the NHS is streets beyond living under a private insurance system. They actually care about helping you recover, they're not just trying to screw every penny out of you.

[emmaverybo]

56. A few years ago, hip replacement surgery was re-categorized as elective. These are

surgeries one must wait for. An aging population has challenged the system, which increasingly is becoming privatized. And yes, government can cut funding. This is not to say that reforms and an
infusion of money can not solve the problems the system faces. It is to say our single-payer system will like-wise face challenges, one of these being government itself and another our own expectations of what government run universal healthcare looks like vs. on-demand medicine many are used to. I am not suggesting that we give up on the goal of universal health-care.

[Garrett78]

6. The insurance my wife and I currently have sucks.

On the other hand, we've also had really good insurance in the past.

Not everybody loves their private insurance, but the point remains that many do. Eventually, we should remove the profit motive from health care (that seems like a no-brainer in our evolution as human beings). But I'm in complete agreement with those who say that's not tenable at this time. We need to get there in stages. The next stage should include a public option.

[athena]

18. I have excellent insurance, and it sucks.

Every time I have to see a doctor, I have to pay a $30 or $60 co-pay, depending on whether the doctor is a specialist.

Four years ago, I had to have a minor surgery, and while I was recovering from it, I received a letter in the mail telling me that my surgery wouldn't be covered because it should have been out-patient surgery, and I had stayed at the hospital overnight. (I have no idea how I could possibly have gone home the same day; getting up out of that hospital bed on the second day was the most physically painful experience I've ever had.) I was completely stressed out for days, not knowing how much I would have to pay out of pocket. When I called my doctor's office, they were completely unhelpful. After lots of phone calls and e-mails, I was finally able to figure out that my doctor's office had filed the claim incorrectly. (I believe they did this on purpose because they charge a patient three times more if insurance doesn't cover a procedure. Insurance companies will refuse to pay more than a certain amount for a procedure, but an individual is in no position to argue about what any given procedure should cost.) In the end, after lots of phone calls and e-mails, my doctor's office filed the correct paperwork, and I only ( ) had to pay $500 out of pocket for the surgery (not including additional amounts for the anesthesia, etc.). But I'm certain that my recovery was slowed down because of the extreme stress I suffered.

Anyone who likes their insurance company has not (yet) been in a situation where their insurance company will try to screw them over. The insurance companies hold all the cards. They're able to refuse to cover a procedure for extremely arcane reasons. Medicare for all, on the other hand would ultimately be controlled by the power of the vote. I will never understand what makes Americans so comfortable handing over all the power to a private company and so uncomfortable handing over much less power to the government.

[Blue_true]

23. Shouldn't you change doctors?

I have never had a doctor make a mistake on filing paperwork. If yours did to get paid more, are you really seeing the right Doctor? Ethics is a critical part of doctoring for me.

[athena]

45. I did. I never went back to that doctor again. (n/t)

[DeminPennswoods]

24. Because many Americans are terrified of having no health

insurance at all.

I believe people who are against M4A truly have no idea how good Medicare is and all that it covers. All the scare talk about cost and taxes loses the point that what will happen is cost shifting, not cost increases. The central question is, do you want your premiums and/or out of pocket costs to go to pay for actual care or into private insurer's profit margins?

I think M4A supporters need to work up a little comparison chart of costs under private insurance and cost under M4A that would show how the costs shift.

[Beartracks]

29. There should be charts like Ross Perot had charts. n/t

[handmade34]

32. "Anyone who likes their insurance company....

has not (yet) been in a situation where their insurance company will try to screw them over." Yup!


I've got mine, too bad for you seems to be the sentiment

[Thekaspervote]

10. Thank you for your sensible post!

[wellst0nev0ter]

11. "And both are locally located"

Too bad everybody in the country can't have access to it

[ananda]

12. No "we" don't!

I favor Medicare for ALL !!!!

[crazytown]

13. The kids in the gig economy, those who take 6 months contracts, who change major jobs every 2 years,

insurance tied to employers is both an empty promise, and an encumbrance.

[DCofVA]

14. There are two sides to the MFA debate; those of us who have been...

...screwed over by our insurance companies and those of us who haven’t been screwed over… yet.
There are also the tens of millions who still can’t afford insurance. They are naturally on the MFA side.

[OKNancy]

15. Well, I had a great experience with "Obamacare"

My husband was with the ACA through the marketplace. We got a generous subsidy. I was 4 years older so I got on Medicare.
His premiums were lower than mine when adding my subsidy. After the deductible, Blue Cross paid 100%

It's not perfect because the first year the deductible was $5,000 and the second year was $6,000. However his chemo,radiation and other treatments were in the hundreds of thousands. ONE Keytruda dose is $14,000! Our hospital allowed us to make payments over time and when he died they cancelled all the balance. (St. Francis is Tulsa)

ETA: we were never turned down or questioned about any treatment, drugs or anything

[Cha]

25. Mahalo for sharing your story, Nancy..

Sorry about your husband

[Hassin Bin Sober]

38. I'm sorry your husband died but that doesn't sound like such a great deal to me.

People of limited means near Medicare age have no business taking out insurance policies with $6000 dollar deductibles.

You literally had insurance you couldn’t afford to use. That is painfully obvious.

[OKNancy]

39. My state didn't do the Medicaid expansion

Most people of limited income in those states got a really good deal. If the ACA were strengthened and the expansion was required, that would be no problem. The only reason we could afford the deductible... my husband could not work his hourly job and I was retired.. was that I started an IRA since I was self-employed. We also borrowed on our life insurance policy.

Sure the deductibles were high, but it's doable when you are trying to save a life. FWIW, we chose the low premium policy because at the time we got on the program, my husband was not diagnosed.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

40. That's the problem with those high deductible plans. People choose them when they think...

... they won’t need them. Then blammo.

People choose these plans and can’t even afford to use them for minor to moderate problems and end up with serious illness or death due to lack of care.

It. Happens. Every. Day.


Other people with serious illness end up in bankruptcy court if they live. Death or bankruptcy doesn’t sound like good choices to me.

$6,000 dollar deductible insurance is junk insurance for anyone with less than $100,000 dollars in income. My downstairs neighbor is in the $250,000 salary range and even she cries the blues with her high deductible plan for her and her daughter.

Why is $6000 dollar deductible insurance being sold to people getting maximum incentives anyway? That’s criminal.

[OKNancy]

41. LOL our income

was $31,000 a year.

So whatever.

[peasant one]

16. Medicare for all

I had a boss once (a Republican) who said he didn't want universal health care cause he thought that would make his insurance worse. Well I think that everyone should have insurance and I am willing to make sacrifices for that to happen.

[handmade34]

33. thank you for saying that

[Nanjeanne]

17. Sorry you have had such a difficult time. I'm not that familiar with "cost" plans but what I can

find out about them and how they are being phased out doesn't seem to be because of government Medicare but more about private health insurance competition.

From Medicare Resource Guide:

A Medicare cost plan is similar to a Medicare Advantage plan in that enrollees have access to a network of doctors and hospitals, and may have additional benefits beyond what’s provided by Original Medicare. But unlike Medicare Advantage plans, a cost plan offers policyholders the option of receiving coverage outside of the network, in which case the Medicare-covered services are paid for through Original Medicare. Some cost plans may include prescription drug coverage. Enrollees can join a Medicare cost plan when it’s accepting new members, but may decide to return to Original Medicare at any time, since a cost plan works in tandem with (as opposed to a replacement for) Original Medicare.

The Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act of 2003 (which rebranded Medicare+Choice as Medicare Advantage) created a competition clause that banned Medicare Cost plans from operating in areas where they faced substantial competition from Medicare Advantage plans. The implementation of the competition clause was delayed, but legislation enacted in 2015 (MACRA) required the competition clause to be implemented as of 2019.

As of 2018, there were about 625,000 people enrolled in Medicare cost plans nationwide. And two-thirds of them were in Minnesota (the rest are spread across Arizona, California, Colorado, District of Columbia, Florida, Iowa, Maryland, North Dakota, Nebraska, New York, South Dakota, Texas, Virginia, and Wisconsin; most states do not have Medicare cost plans available).

But there will be far fewer Medicare cost plan enrollees as of 2019, due to the implementation of the Medicare Advantage competition clause. 320,000 people in Minnesota will have to pick new coverage for 2019 (either Medicare Advantage or Original Medicare — with the option to supplement the Original Medicare with a Part D plan and/or a Medigap plan). People who still have Medicare cost plans available in their area can still enroll, but the number of people who will have access to such plans in 2019 will be much smaller.

For me - looking at Medicare and supplemental plans and various choices and knowing I would never choose an Advantage plan that would limit me to a specific network of doctors or hospitals. We chose regular Medicare and a supplemental that allows us to see any doctor or go to any hospital anywhere in the country that accepts Medicare. The supplemental is from a private insurance company unfortunately but all the various supplemental plans are standardized by the government to provide the same things. Ex - Plan "N" which we have, whether serviced by Aetna or USAA - competes only by price or service. Their N plan must be the same. Thank goodness we "chose" wisely as my husband was subsequently diagnosed with multiple myeloma and by having the plan we have we were able to go to a myeloma specialist in a different state to monitor his treatment. That is what MedicareForAll will allow us all to do and we won't have to worry if we "chose" the correct plan after we get sick.

[Bev54]

19. That is part of the problem, all the paperwork

If you had Universal healthcare, you would not experience the problems or get unexpected bills, you can still purchase enhanced insurance if you want it but at a much lower cost because your basic healthcare needs are taken care of. I do not understand the mindset of those who like deductibles and co-pays and the lottery of whether your insurance company will pay and the paperwork involved. No paperwork under a Universal system, just go to the doctor, get your shots and go home. It is paid for and you will not get any bills by accident or otherwise.

[athena]

20. Exactly.

I think that a lot of people, including the OP, don't understand what single-payer health care ( aka "Medicare for All" ) means.

Not only would there be no bills, no co-pays, no phone calls, and no paperwork, but the government would ensure that everything costs the same across the board. Hospitals would no longer be allowed to charge $4 for a single Band-Aid.

[Bev54]

21. Yes

That is how it works and you can still buy enhanced insurance to cover dental, massage therapy and many other coverages unless you add them in to the single-payer. That should be the only question on people's minds is how many services can be in the basic care.

[Joe941]

22. It's true some people have good insurance, but for the greater good...

They must go. We can all have the best healthcare together under one system.

[SeaTownBlue]

28. There Is A Reason Other Countries That Are Not Owned Outright By Corporations

Can insure all their citizens for half as much as America with better overall care.

We are being ripped off every way possible.

My mother in law's treatment for her eyes costs "us" $5,000 a "visit" and the same exact treatment in the country she was born in, and may move to is $500.

We pay 10x as much for what?

Corporate profit.

[question everything]

46. But in many countries private insurance does exist

I have often compared universal care system to public education. We all support them with our taxes whether we used them or not, but we are free to go to use private schools.

And, yes, universal health will have to be supported by taxes. Ignoring this is really hypocritical.

[Kurt V.]

30. no one loves their private insurance. no one. Consumers are conditioned to say things like this

[Bradical79]

58. Yup

Private insurance is just a method to pay less slightly less exploitave prices in some cases. It's the actual healthcare and coverage they like. If you get the same care, same doctor, and comprehensive coverage, you'll want the thing that results in less out of pocket costs and saves you money overall.

For most people a Medicare for All, or similiar system, is objectively superior. You don't have massive out of pocket costs, your tax increases (if you have one) will typically be less than the premium you are paying with insurance, and you will have more mobility when it comes to work. Entrepreneurship will increase, and there will be less people avoiding healthcare because of costs (so less strain on the system).

The biggest obstacle in Medicare for All on the P.R. front is taxes. People love it until you start talking taxes, and then support drops like a rock. When it comes down to it, people in general are idiots when it comes down to taxation, and that's always been the biggest problem with any Democratic plan or attempts to return taxation to a bit more reasonable level.

[rownesheck]

31. Having a situation where insurance is tied to job

is fucking stupid and evil. It's a way to force people to stay at a job they hate, and it's a way to fuck them over when that company is done with them. The employee has no power in this situation. The days of working at the same job for 60 years is over. It's the 21st fucking century.

Normal countries have figured out the health insurance thing. It's time this country does as well. Maybe a handful of people feel like they like their private insurance, but there are 320+ million people in this country. Let's start thinking about what's going to help everyone.

[JenniferJuniper]

36. I'd like to retire in a few years,

health problems and general weariness are taking their toll.

Between IRAs and downsizing of the large house, I should have the means, but I still have to work until I'm 65 because of health insurance. Which means a qualified younger person will not be able to step into my position until then.

And no one should be forced to depend on the whims of an employer for their health care. The whole system is ridiculous and I find it hard to fathom anyone defending it.

[question everything]

47. And this was supposed to have been resolved with the ACA

Personally, for 13 years I had an individual policy because I did not want to be tied to an employer - mine or my spouse's. And I did not like the idea that employer can tell about my health care providers.

And I think that if employer will get out of the picture, and everyone will have to have an individual policy, perhaps through "groups" that then many may change their minds about private insurance and will be open to a universal system, supported by our taxes - with private insurance as an option.

[Amimnoch]

34. Personally, I'd like to see a full on education+Jobs+healthcare reform.

Expand the role fo the Surgeon General to managing the US Health and hospital system.

From the ground up, build a network of publicly owned preventative health/family practitioner clinics and offices, hospitals, and specialist office buildings. - added benefit massive jobs bill.

Education bill tied to it that will cover and offer:
-Expanded classroom availability for greatly increasing the pool of hospital technicians, xray techs, nurses, doctors, and hospital administrative trades.
- in larger metropolitan areas, creation of new specialty schools/universities in or adjacent to impoverished neighborhoods which again would create jobs that will help said neighborhoods, AND use those added classrooms to expand a large pool of hospital health care professionals development.
- in the existing schools in those neighborhoods beef up the curriculum to help students better prepare for the new specialty schools/universities.
- for students provided the opportunity to expand their education into the new healthcare system, tie a post education to a reasonable pay scale employment contract upon completion of their program.. for example, you get 2 years of X-ray or medical technician training compliments of the government, you must agree to work for 4 years at one of the government healthcare facilities/clinics at a living wage that may be less than someone who paid or went into debt for their own education in the private sector.

Make the costs for using these facilities income proportional. Make those that still maintain private insurance exempt from having to make the co-payments. Because there would be no shareholders, or capitalist need for profits, these same clinics facilities and hospitals would incentivize the insurance providers to pass on incentives to their customers for electing to use these facilities. After all, when you no longer have to make a profit, you can provide the same services for much less actual cost.

Education + Jobs + healthcare + providing opportunities for the betterment of impoverished neighborhoods all rolled into one package.

[JenniferJuniper]

35. People who think their private insurance is great

Likely haven't had to use it for much more than routine things. Or they've been very lucky with an employer who provides a top notch plan with low employee contributions.

My employer now provides only a Point of Service plan. (POS for short. Or Piece of Shit, for those who have tried to use it.) You cannot go out of a very limited network of providers, including hospitals, labs imaging centers, etc. If you do, even by mistake or by the mistake of your provider, unless you can prove it was a dire emergency, absolutely nothing is covered. It's very hard to find a primary care physician in the plan who is taking new patients, so very little choice over who you end up with. I've read that more and more employers will be gravitating to these sorts of plans as costs continue to increase.

I also hate the fact that my health is dependent upon me keeping this job. I'm in a volatile business with lots of mergers, acquisitions, downsizings going on all the time. I've been lucky with the musical chairs so far, but if I lose my job, finding a comparable new job at my age will be next to impossible.

[Gothmog]

37. Warren and Sanders say Americans don't like their health insurance. Polls don't back that up

Link to tweet

[TSIAS]

42. I can see the chants at next year's DNC

People will be waiving signs saying "Blue Cross. Blue Shield". It's going to be awesome.

[elocs]

48. Listen, you're going to get with the program and celebrate Medicare for All and like it!

This choice stuff is way overrated anyways.
Medicare for All is heathcare perfection and all who support it will tell you so.

[Bradical79]

59. You seem to have that backwards

It's the anti-MFA people telling everyone else to get with the program every single day. It's party over people for you. You are the one here whining about people who disagree with the current system.

[elocs]

60. Choice sucks, doesn't it.

MFA for all is not happening soon if ever, but promise away, but most people realize that if something sounds too good to be true is usually is too good to be true.

[trixie2]

51. It is not about today, it is about tomorrow

In the past 2 - 3 years all the librarian jobs, which required a masters, is only hiring 20 hours a week no benefits of any kind. How can the future adults live like that. How do you pay off student loans working 20 hours? Most are taking 2 jobs.

[ritapria]

52. This is a Great Discussion !

[Joe941]

53. Sorry this is not where we are headed.

[Act_of_Reparation]

61. There are 327 million people in this country.

So, let's do the math here...


1/327,000,000 =


You know what... on second thought, I don't like math all that much. I'm gonna make a sandwich.

[question everything]

62. Ham and cheese?

[Act_of_Reparation]

63. Peppermill turkey and vermont cheddar, actually.

My ancestors are likely rolling over in their deep, dark German graves, but I've never been a big fan of ham.