Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumMy scorecard for tonight's debate.
Points given for maturity and gravitas.
Big subtraction for two things.
Minus 20 for attacking Biden based on trump's accusations.
Minus 20 for using republican talking points - particularly anyone who uses the phrase "take away the insurance of working Americans."
That phrase is used to attack the Medicare for All candidates. It is a lie and any Democrat who uses this republican lie does not really have the country's best intererest at heart. If you don't want M4A then argue the merits, but don't say we can't afford it. It is easily the cheapest way to achieve universal health care. If you argue against it, then be honest and say that you either want to spend more or that you don't really want universal health care.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,719 posts)Of course, he's not a candidate for the Presidency now.
I wouldn't hold his statement against him--would you?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)Just don't lie with republican talking points.
Nothing in M4A will cause working people do lose insurance. They will have Medicare. I was on employer paid insurance with five different jobs over thirty years. Now I am on Medicare, and it is far superior in coverage and cost to me than any other I have had. I understand that politicians and network pundits have golden insurance, but I don't like that my taxes give them that privilege. Literally everyone I know on Medicare prefers it to anything they used to have.
You cannot have universal health care any cheaper. If a candidate wants to campaign on something like Medicare choice, that is fine. But they need to be honest about the fact that it will cost billions more than M4A.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)want to keep.
M4A is about forcing everyone into a government insurance plan. Don't lie like trump does to get your way!
And another lie about costs! Nobody knows what M4A really looks like so nobody knows the cost! It is all pie in the sky at this point. A bipartisan Congress will decide what M4A is not Warren nor Bernie.
Using words against fact is a ruse Warren and Bernie engage in.
Along with plans that have no costs described or how they get done.
Why Warren and Bernie people do not ask for specifics is beyond my comprehension. It is the same tactic that trump uses on his base.
You will vote for anything that sounds good with out question.
Harris and Biden will not do that even though they may not be front runners for it. I cannot back Warren nor Bernie because they are not truthful.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)reform.
He gives details all the time and people lose their job, lose their insurance, I don't know some working people want M4A.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)Americans do not want to be forced into a health care plan. They would rather have choice. A public option gives them choice.
M4A does not. It is a losing idea that helps trump.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)That is why the mandate was a bad idea is because people don't want to be forced but I believe M4A is a very basic idea. Polls show support progressive policies more than conservative ones.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)Stop using pie in the sky vs reality!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)but we can't because we are too conservative or private corporations have too much control over our politics.
Great statement by Tom Steyer in the debate.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)refuse to acknowledge math and reality.
Using rightwing rhetoric doesn't help you position.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Thekaspervote
(32,796 posts)This is not RW rhetoric its math and reality to use your words.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)it would cost for universal coverage with a plan that let everybody have every thing they want plan - the plan that the "moderates" put forward.
It is the height of intellectual dishonesty to say that it will cost less to cover everyone if you add CEO salaries, corporate profit, lobbying expenses, and administrative costs to the cost for medical care.
Be honest. How will Medicare for All costs more than providing coverage for all citizens when it covers the same medical costs without the above expenses?
Tell me again how 2 plus 2 plus 2 is going to equal 2. Are you being purposefully deceptive or do you really not get it? Stop listening to the drivel put out to media by the insurance lobby and do the math.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)for you to have the choice to make insurance CEO's more wealthy?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,696 posts)from Delaware where credit card companies are headquartered...I notice that Warren voted to repeal the medical device tax because the medical device industry is headquartered in Massachusetts...you vote for your business that provide jobs in your state...
"What Warren didnt say was that her bill has a loophole in it for medical device manufacturers. Those companies, which make everything from latex gloves to Magnetic Resonance Imaging machines, would be exempt from her proposed penalties unless they also make drugs. At the same time, her bill explicitly ensures that the so-called medtech companies would benefit from the research dollars that her swear jar would generate..."Since she launched her campaign for the Senate in 2011, Warren has come out in favor several medical device industry priorities, including rewriting Food and Drug Administration (FDA) regulations, bolstering federal research funding and making permanent certain temporary tax credits for research and development."
https://time.com/3695581/elizabeth-warren-medical-device-lobbyists-obamacare/
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)Do you really think you get that employer "provide" insurance for free? How naive.
Costs. How do you cover everyone for less than Medicare. Those that say they can are the ones who are not truthful. The Affordable Care Act costs more than it was planned because the republicans gutted the part that required everyone to be covered. When you only have the poorest and most ill covered, you pay more. Do you not believe in universal health care? If so, be honest and tell us how you will pay for it.
What does "words against fact" mean? What fact? If you claim that paying profits for insurance companies, paying for redundant and extensive paperwork, and avoiding bargaining with drub companies will lower costs, you are not being factual.
It is ignoring reality and pretending that corporations have out best interests at heart it the tactics that trump uses. Why would someone who claims to be a Democrat do that?
You do not know what I will vote for. I will vote for the program that does the most good for the most people. If I were to indulge in your tactics, I would say that you will vote for anything that lets you keep your privileged status regardless of what hardships it imposes on others. (Of course you don't think you are paying for your employer insurance, so it is easy to see how you would think your status would be better if you got to keep paying to the insurance industry.)
Here's the sad thing. Biden and the others like Harris and Buttigieg are smart. They know that the cost to citizens will go down on M4A. They know that the cost for people like you that pay for their employer supplied plans along with the cost for those who will choose Medicare is more than if everyone were covered by Medicare. It is mathematical simplicity. Health coverage minus the insurance industry obscene profits and minus the paperwork will cost less. It's just a matter of whether you believe everyone deserves health care in our country.
Do you?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)Everything you say is null and void
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)Do you believe in universal health care?
Do you work for the insurance industry?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)You have a list of what you do not like. That is naive as hell.
I was a controller of a medical clinic in Ridgecrest CA. We had a surgery center, an urgent care unit, OBGYN, family practice, X-ray, pediatrics, lab and a few more depts. We had 21 doctors, twice that number in nurses and other medical staff. We had administration, billing, coding, inventory, purchasing.
You know nothing about what it takes to provide medical care. You want your "free medical care for all." It will never be.
You think you will vote for M4A and everyone I mentioned above will just fall in line. It doesn't work that way.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)What list? Now you are doing the trump think of accusing me of what you are guilty of. I'm not naive. I am very informed on this subject. You have no idea what my background is. While you worked at making money from the insurance industry, I worked at helping people avoid the lies and cruelty of that industry.
If you worked in the industry, you should be aware of the amount of administration it took to provide insurance CEOs with their lavish lifestyle. You listed administration, billing, coding. That's just the start. Its is the rebelling, collection, recoding, claims refusals, and most important - justifying why someone should lose their insurance - that would be eliminated under Medicare for all.
I obviously know more about what is involved in medial care and how it gets paid for than you do. No one said Medicare would be free. If you work in the field, you should be honest and say that people on Medicare pay for that insurance. Stop using right wing tactics. It is not "free medical care for all". It is Medicare insurance for all.
But you know that. It is easy to see why this topic touches your hot button, since you make you living supporting the insurance industry.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,696 posts)and there would be way to many jobs lost...it will never happen...a public option with the ACA will lead to universal coverage I hope...if we don't screw it up by trying to reinvent the wheel...we have the ACA build on it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)It will cost a lot more, and it won't cover everyone. The lucky and privileged will benefit from the higher cost.
Does your employer pay !00% of your insurance? Mine never did. I worked for many years with employer assisted insurance. I paid premiums and my employer paid premiums. A never got as good an insurance program as I have now under Medicare. I know several people who delayed medical needs until they turned 65 because their employer insurance would not cover their expenses.
As I said, if you are part of the lucky and privileged, you may not understand that most people pay for their insurance by premium, lower wages, and poor coverage.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,696 posts)coverage and tweak the subsidies, it will cover everyone...why wouldn't it? I am a realist and know what is possible and what is not.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)Show me how to add corporate profit, mounds of administrative record keeping, billing, court costs, and lobbying expenses to what is already spent on medical care and come up with less than what is already spent on medical care.
What form of reality adds 2 and 2 and gets 2?
The public option was gutted when the court said you can't require people to have coverage. That adds another level of expense to the 2 plus 2 -- covering only the sickest and running emergency room care at county hospitals for those not covered.
I'lll be glad to run a option or choice system. Just be honest about he fact that it will cost millions more. You can't ignore facts and reality. We pay several times what other industrialized countries with single payer do for our health care. Just why do you think that is so?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,696 posts)pass single payer...and if we try to run on it we lose 2020. The ACA with a public option is doable...and won't cause us to lose the election.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)in the United States.
If that is not a goal for you, then your premise is perfectly valid.
The ACA has not limited corporate profits. And even if that had been successful, do you have any idea how much 10% of America's medical spending is?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Thekaspervote
(32,796 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)You should try it.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)of the options by which all Americans could be covered. Universal healthcare need not disallow private insurance. In England, for instance, many carry employer-provided insurance,
If, a big if, M4All were to be implemented, its roll out is going to take some years. What do we do in the meantime?
Single-payer administrated by the federal government is also not the only way to provide healthcare for all.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Thekaspervote
(32,796 posts)No wonder she wont answer
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)How much did the CBO say it would cost for universal coverage under any plan other than Medicare for All.
Will Biden be honest and tell us how much it will cost to use his plan? Will he admit that his plan leaves hundreds of thousands without coverage?
Will any of those who want Medicare by choice put forward the cost of their plans?
Are you going to fall for numbers that do not include the employer costs because you think they do that out of their own pocket? It is your money they spend to pay their share of the premiums for your "work" insurance.
This isn't hard. All it takes is an honest look at things without just falling in with the plan your favorite candidate espouses. I was one of those who doubted Warren's plan too. I listened to the media pundits who gasped at how much it would cost. (They want to continue to have you subsidize their golden insurance plans.) Then I began reading and adding the costs myself. It wasn't hard. You should try.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)wants to do that. He said so over and over. And that workers would get the money back as salary
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
PhoenixDem
(581 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)What will be "taken away" from you? Do you have one of those corporate CEO golden insurance plans? Just what do you think you will lose when you begin to qualify for Medicare insurance?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)Just how will providing Medicare for all take away insurance? What do you think Medicare is? I pay much less for my Medicare insurance than my employer and I did before I turned 65. When I did, my retirement plan actually had the option to remain on the "employer" plan. I couldn't wait to leap into the less expensive and better coverage of Medicare.
Why do you want to support an insurance industry that has gouged and cheated millions of American workers for decades? Do you work for the industry?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,696 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cha
(297,715 posts)a meme to Shut Down Discussion and it pisses me OFF.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)It is a frequent right wing lie.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,696 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)If your employer changed providers, would you be outraged because they took away your insurance? How would Medicare as your provider be different?
Is money deducted from your salary to pay your premiums? Would you like to have the amount your employer pays for your premiums added to your paycheck instead?
In order for you to keep your "work" insurance, hundreds of thousands of people must do without insurance. Is that a concept that you can easily accept? Do you have CEO insurance with no premiums or deductibles or copays? All the talking heads on the cable channels receive golden insurance plans even though they are millionaires who could afford to foot their insurance. Millionaires and elected congress members don't mind if others suffer as long as they get theirs. I like to think that you aren't like that and just were unaware of that fact.
If you are an ordinary working stiff - like I was for years before my retirement - Medicare will be a vast improvement over the crap insurance that you receive now. My Medicare premiums are lower and give me more choice and coverage and security (it won't be yanked away any year without notice) than I ever had on my previous plans.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
dsc
(52,166 posts)I am a school teacher in NC, and have employer provided insurance (my employer claims a cost of about 5300 per employee they are self insured). I can absolutely guarantee you that I wouldn't see a single, solitary cent of that money if M4A passed tomorrow.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)I taught for 31 years. I self insured for half of those. My insurance from the district was crap. High premiums, high deductibles, and high copays. When I retired I kept paying my district "supplied" insurance premiums until I was 65. The minute I went on Medicare, my premiums dropped and my coverage was better. I don't have to worry that the district or state will make a deal with some other cheating insurance corporation. They take board members to fancy golf tournaments and on trips, then we get screwed.
I would bet that even if your union couldn't get the money you have coming, you would be better off with Medicare than your current plan. You gotta be crazy to think that the employer who would make sure that you "wouldn't see a single, solitary cent of that money" has your best interests at heart.
Aside from that is the fact that isn't just about you or me. There are hundreds of thousands who are desperately without health care. I could give up just a little of my privilege to achieve universal coverage.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
dsc
(52,166 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)It is a better plan than you will ever get from your district or state.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
cannabis_flower
(3,768 posts)Health insurance is not healthcare. Healthcare is your doctor, your hospital, your physical therapist, your pharmacy and your medications. You pay for health insurance and health insurance pays for your healthcare, if they feel like it.
With M4A, you might lose your current health insurance but you won't lose your healthcare. You just won't pay so much for it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)I think though that we have some insurance industry people posting.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
cannabis_flower
(3,768 posts)some of the candidates are doing it also. I'm not sure all of the ones that have done it but I know I heard Amy Klobuchar say it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)for the right wing and insurance company propaganda. That is understandable since both groups have paid enormously to have those lies put into the mainstream.
But the candidates are smarter than that. I'm very disappointed that they will willingly mislead and take cheap shots to curry votes and extend what they know to be lies.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Thekaspervote
(32,796 posts)Oh please!!
She doesnt want to answer because she knows what the costs are. Its truly unkind to tell voters, especially those that need more help, that you will pass this big health care bill when the senate is gop, and we all know it wont pass. It called false hope.... and its very hurtful
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)I mean, add up the cost of universal coverage under Biden's plan.
First you have the cost of medical care. Then add the administrative cost of Medicare (one of the lowest anywhere). That is the cost of Medicare for All.
Now. Take those same medical care costs.
Add the administrative costs for the insurance industry (about quadruple that of Medicare).
Add the costs for profit of the insurance companies.
Add the costs for the salaries of the employees of the insurance companies.
Add the costs for Corporate CEO salaries.
Add the cost for the giant lobbying firms working for the insurance companies.
That is the cost for Biden's plan.
Now who is being dishonest to curry votes?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mountain grammy
(26,655 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,123 posts)Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
dflprincess
(28,082 posts)at least in the form it takes in Minnesota. Especially the program for seniors - it covers way more than Medicare does (hearing aids, glasses, etc) though it does need to expand to (at least) basic dental services.
That's really what Bernie has been talking about.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Celerity
(43,545 posts)if they are made universal.
It is 78% of current costs.
That is unsustainable in the current paradigm.
If you are suggesting an adjustment to that, then I am all ears.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)...unites Medicare/Medicaid and the public option into one system. I think thats the way we get to this in a way thats realistic.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Celerity
(43,545 posts)agreed
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
dflprincess
(28,082 posts)is that the public option is more apt to attract people who need more healthcare & that will doom it to failure as costs outrun the premiums.
The only way a public plan works is if everyone, from the healthiest newborn to the sickest senior citizen is in the same pool.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)...we would need to put employers in a situation where moving employees to the public option makes them richer and we let them get away with it. That would grow the public option pool really fast.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
hedda_foil
(16,375 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)It would cost way more than M4A and still leave thousands without affordable health care.
But if you can get the people to pay for it, go ahead.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
dflprincess
(28,082 posts)I would expect the pool to be solvent enough that payments could be made at 100%. -- If anyone can figure out what the acutal cost is.
I recently saw my primary for the annual visit. The gross amount billed was $172. given the time I spent with the doctor & the blood tests run I didn't think this seemed unreasonable to me. Yet, my insurance company only paid $67.90. I paid nothing as it was a preventive visit. My insurer is one of the larger ones in the area so who knows what kind of deal it was able to broker & if the clinic I go to may losing money on a visit like this while making it up else where or from people whose insurers don't have as much pull?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)crammed down their throats."
I'm fine with it, and think some others might be once they see what it is going to cost me and others directly; what subsidies are available for the less well off; can you really get a plan enacted with no copays, deductibles, dental insurance; etc.; what about people who still don't want it as only choice available, but might give it a try as a choice from several once all details are laid out; etc.
But, "it'll cost less than we pay now in total," ain't cutting it. And, MFA is a loser in General Election and puts us farther away from much needed significant improvements in our health care system.
In 1982, I was for Medicaid-for-All in Georgia. So, I believe it might just work, although not was well as some folks think. Problem is, lots of people won't believe it will be better.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
JCMach1
(27,574 posts)Honorable mention to Klobuchar and Steyer
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)Your keyboard took the words right out of my keyboard.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided