The average cost of 4-year college in the United States: $23,091

[Uncle Joe]

Link to tweet

[pangaia]

1. Well, yes and no..

$212 might be how much a student 'pays' directly. The cost is HUGELY higher,, it AIN'T FREE...

[CurtEastPoint]

2. Really?

https://www.salon.com/2014/11/02/7_countries_where_college_is_free_partner/

[pangaia]

4. REALLY !

WHO pays the teachers?
Who pays the administration?
Who pays the utilities?
Who pays the campus security?
Who pays the people who clean at night?
Who pays infrastructure upgrades and repairs?
Who pays for faculty research?
Who pays interest on loans?
Who pays program supplies and equipme

Ya want me to go on?

[DetlefK]

10. It's "tuition-free", but in reality there are some administrative fees. Plus, the state subsidizes.

The administrative fees were IIRC €100 when I studied in Germany and nowadays it's about €200. That's $220 "tuition fee" per semester.

And the universities get subsidies from the state and on the federal level. The "tuition fee" is just a drop in the bucket for them. Universities get most of their funding from external sources anyways, mainly by applying for research-grants.

[pangaia]

48. "Tuition free," yes, BUT the money comes from somewhere...

I am entirely in favor of students' tuition and whatever else being covered by "society.

"And the universities get subsidies from the state and on the federal level. "

Yes, but-----
This is the entire point...SOMEBODY pays for it....
Where do 'states' and 'federal' governments get the money?


And it is an argument republicans will make..

[CurtEastPoint]

13. No, you needn't go on. Please...

[pangaia]

45. What do you mean by , 'go on."

Do you really understand what I am asking?

[CurtEastPoint]

55. You asked the question. See below:

REALLY !

WHO pays the teachers?
Who pays the administration?
Who pays the utilities?
Who pays the campus security?
Who pays the people who clean at night?
Who pays infrastructure upgrades and repairs?
Who pays for faculty research?
Who pays interest on loans?
Who pays program supplies and equipme

Ya want me to go on?

[LanternWaste]

20. Who is arguing it's absolutely free in those countries?

Tuition free is a separate concept than absolutely free. People know this. Do you?

[pangaia]

44. And where does the money come from to pay the expenses when there is no 'tuition"

People know this.
Do you?

[Joe941]

79. The rich would pay most.

[pangaia]

81. I can certainly support that..

[whopis01]

39. It isn't free. It is paid for by society.

Which is a good thing.

[Hav]

41. "Which is a good thing"

Exactly, it is a good thing and for the benefit of the country. Reading some responses here, it's ridiculous.
"Keeping college costs high to own the libs, wait, I meant to own Bernie."

[pangaia]

52. Yes. I agree. It is a good thing.

However, 'society' is not some imaginary being in the air.
It is people, like you and me.....and many not like you and me, I am sure...

[whopis01]

64. Question: Who said 'society' was some imaginary being up in the air?

Answer: No one.


It is people. It is all the people.

There really shouldn't be any difficulty understanding this concept. Its the same way roads and bridges and fire departments and public schools work. They are paid for by society, because they benefit society.

[pangaia]

66. Do you really think I don't understand that? really? Of course I do,,,

But I promise you.. many do not..and many don;t get the connection between 'government will pay' for something and it will come out of the pockets of people. And exactly HOW this may occur and what it means... And that it might actually be a good thing.....

So I think candidates, ANY and ALL, should be clear what is meant.. WE pay for it... and then explain the HUGE benefits that accrue,--like your roads, etc. example---and the $$ that will ultimately be saved.. I read an article that included a study that americans most depressed about their future are the most poorly educated.. Bot THAT says something...

And------
Especially concerning health insurance.. depending on what health insurance one is talking about, I don't seem to see enough info on how much will be saved by lower or no co-pays, no or lower 'premiums-- I think the benefits of a sane program need to be shouted from the roof tops because too many Americans are just dumb as a pile of old lamp shades...

[whopis01]

67. You wrote the bit about society isn't some " imaginary being in the air". I was responding to that

I felt it was a dig at what I said. That may have been an incorrect interpretation on my part. If it was, I apologize.

I don't think we disagree at all here.

I do believe that education of the voter is the right path. Which means explaining where the money is coming from and what it is going to do for you (and everyone else).

Though it is an immense challenge to explain this to someone who doesn't get the concept, when the other side can keep pushing a much simpler to understand (albeit false) narrative about higher taxes / government waste / etc / etc / etc.

In addition to people who are "just dumb as a pile of old lamp shades", you have ones that aren't really dumb - but just haven't ever learned the concept, and the ones that just aren't bothered enough to pay attention. I get depressed when I think about the effort required to get people to understand these concepts and the chance of success at doing so.

[pangaia]

69. I think we agree on just about all...

[George II]

3. Personal income tax rate for 27,000 to 73,000 Euros is 30%, it's about 12% in the US.

[pangaia]

5. BINGO!

[ritapria]

7. It is time for the Billionaire class to pay their fair share of taxes

They are sucking up all of the new wealth being created by the "riff-raff' …..The women who clean their toilets often pay more in Federal Tax than do the billionaires that employ them …..People don't want "free stuff" ..They want what they've earned

[TidalWave46]

15. Millionaire and billionaire. NT

[George II]

17. Shhh, for some reason we don't talk about millionaires anymore.

[bluewater]

25. inflation is the reason

being a millionaire ain't what it used to be

$100K in 1950 is equivalent to $1 million today.

In 1990 $500k is equivalent to $1 million today.

Fun calculator here:

https://www.saving.org/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1,000,000&year=1950

[George II]

32. As recently as two or three years ago it was the "millionaire and billionaire class".

[bluewater]

36. That was outdated rhetoric

there was a transitional period when it was "mult-millionaires" then "multi-millionaires with 100's of millions" then "the 1%" then "one tenth of 1 percent"


I blame the continuing concentration of wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people for the "inflation" in the descriptions.

[George II]

71. An exact quote from a few years ago:

"Millionaires and billionaires are pouring unbelievable sums of money into the political process in order to fund super PACs and to elect candidates who represent their interests, not the interests of working people."

[bluewater]

72. Sure, I believe there are quotes, but it was outdated rhetoric...

Inflation and especially inflation in real estate had moved many middle-middle and upper-middle class families into the millionaire category.

hence a new term for the people who were "too rich" had to be found.

This description of who the "too rich" that needed to be taxed more were had already been changing over time, way before 2 or 3 years ago.

It stated by people saying we need to tax "multi-millionaire" more... then "multi-millionaires with 100's of millions"... then "the 1%... then "billionaires"... and now "the one tenth of 1%" as wealth got concentrated into fewer and fewer hands

I don't think we are actually disagreeing about anything here, well, I am not.

Wasn't the discussion about " Shhh, for some reason we don't talk about millionaires anymore.", well, I proposed a reason.

Thanks for the discussion.

[CountAllVotes]

54. +1

Thanks for the useful link!

[Joe941]

80. This.

[progressoid]

16. That's a bit simplistic.

France makes a very clear distinction between Taxes and Social contributions. Basically, this is how much money you’ve got leftover after paying your taxes and contributing for social benefits, such as unemployment insurance, retirement plans, healthcare, etc. If we were to only take taxes into consideration, these rates would be much closer, and French people might actually pay a little less depending on the category.

So what does that mean?

In the US, the average American spends more than 10 000 $ on healthcare alone, and if you spend that much, you have less money leftover unless you gain more than about 100 000 € a year. Not to mention, the French is having one of the best health service in the world, while the US system receives criticism from basically every political party.

And keep in mind, that’s not even counting all the other social benefits the French have such as free tuition, unemployment coverage, retirement, etc.

Conclusion

Overall, it’s not that taxes are high in France; it’s that social contributions are added to them. In fact, unless you’re extremely rich, you’re likely to have more money left over to spend for yourself in France than in the US. The main difference is that in France, it’s mandatory to contribute to social benefits, while it’s up to your preference in the US. So really, one could say that you spend less in France than in the US.

https://www.companow.com/us-vs-france-where-do-you-pay-the-most-taxes/

[dawg day]

40. In the US, we pay for "social" directly too

FICA is 15% from worker and employer, also some 2% for Medicare... which the workers don't even get till 65/66.

Paying a bit more for YOUNG people getting a good start seems smart to me.

[progressoid]

47. Yep. n/t

[kcr]

51. Oh, we have it so good in the US with that low tax rate!

Wait... Our lifespans are shorter https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries/#item-le_the-u-s-has-the-lowest-life-expectancy-at-birth-among-comparable-countries_2019

Our education is shittier https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries/#item-le_the-u-s-has-the-lowest-life-expectancy-at-birth-among-comparable-countries_2019

Overall quality of life, Europe kicks our ass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/standard-of-living-by-country/

https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/2019/quality-of-life-index-39831

https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/2019/quality-of-life-index-39831

But too many Americans have swallowed the Taxes are Bad stupid pill, and continue to take the maintenance doses that Fox news and right ring radio dole out, so we don't get to have nice things.

[DetlefK]

6. In Germany, university is a few hundred bucks tops per semester. Including buying books.

It depends on the university and the state, but it's about €200 per semester.
Plus the costs for new books each semester. Let's make that a generous another €200.
A full warm meal at the in-house cafeteria costs about €3-€5. (Because student-meals are subsidized by the state.)

All universities in Germany have contracts with their cities that give the students some sort of rebate on public transport tickets. Mine had a rebate for day-time tickets and during night-time (when nobody was travelling anyways) students could ride streetcars for free.

[George II]

11. Income tax rate in Germany for 55,000 Euros is 42%.

[DetlefK]

19. Sounds about right. Why? How much is it in the US?

[inwiththenew]

33. 22%

[George II]

43. Perhaps lower depending upon deductions. I paid an effective rate of 12% last year on more than $60K

[still_one]

8. and those are most likely state endowed colleges and university, do not include room and board, and

probably not books etc.

[The Mouth]

9. Does the figure include room, board, expenses?

While I do agree that subsidizing education is a good thing for a democracy, some people choose to go to a local state college and life with parents or a bunch of roomates. others opt for a perhaps more prestigious place where they have to pay room and board. Likewise- doing a degree in 1.5 years?

I spent a lot less on my BA than several people I know; took 18 units, bicycled 11 miles each way, lived with the parents... one buddy went to Stanford, needless to say we had rather different expenditures.

[George II]

12. I lived at home while I attended college.

[George II]

24. Did you enjoy posting that?

[Act_of_Reparation]

26. About as much as I enjoy worthless anecdotes.

[George II]

27. You obviously didn't read the post to which I responded.

[Act_of_Reparation]

31. You mean the post where it was suggested we shouldn't subsidize "personal choices"

...like going to a school that requires room and board? The other worthless anecdote directly preceding your fascinating tale of times long past?

Yeah, I obviously didn't read it. Good call.

[George II]

53. The post that twice referenced living at home while attending college....

....so I pointed out that I did, too.

.....some people choose to go to a local state college and life with parents or a bunch of roomates....

...I spent a lot less on my BA than several people I know; took 18 units, bicycled 11 miles each way, lived with the parents...

[Cha]

60. Actually, Not "worthless" at all. Don't understand

why you would say something like that? These are our lives we're talking about.

[Uncle Joe]

65. The keyword was "anecdote"

an·ec·dote
/ˈanəkˌdōt/
Learn to pronounce
noun
plural noun: anecdotes
a short amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
"told anecdotes about his job"
Similar:
story
tale
narrative
sketch
urban myth
urban legend
reminiscence
yarn
shaggy-dog story
an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.
"his wife's death has long been the subject of rumor and anecdote"
the depiction of a minor narrative incident in a painting.

[George II]

83. That I lived at home with my parents while in college isn't "unreliable or hearsay"....

....it's FACT! Implying that it isn't true is insulting.

[Uncle Joe]

84. It may be true but even if it is, it makes no difference in the grand scheme of things,

not everyone is you or has lived in your circumstances.

[George II]

85. To be honest, I don't even know why that is relevant to this discussion. Can you explain? Thanks.

[exboyfil]

77. Many don't have that option

For example in my state we have two public universities that offer engineering degrees. Neither are within commute distance from my home (and the majority of the state).

In addition the courses are not offered either online or at the local community colleges that would allow completion of the degree in two years at the university. Three years is the minimum. My daughter did it in two, but those classes are no longer offered online (which I think is a tragedy).

My younger daughter was able to stay at home and go to a private nursing college affiliated with the local hospital. The tuition spread would have made cost about equivalent at the state university where you had to pay room and the extra board associated with not eating at home.

[TidalWave46]

14. Very dishonest words from Sanders.

Not a first for him. Should something like this be allowed on Facebook or should it be Zucks responsibility to ban such dishonesty? Sanders own words are not factually accurate.

[progressoid]

21. Which parts were dishonest?

[TidalWave46]

29. The French government subsidizes both students and the university.

The cost is much higher than Sanders states. Sanders own wording is completely dishonest.

[George II]

30. And the subsidies are paid for with taxes collected from everyone.

[TidalWave46]

34. Yep. NT

[Cuthbert Allgood]

58. Kind of like pre-college education in the US

I don't remember a lot of disclaimers at the beginning of "public education."

But, hey, keep bashing what most of the rest of the first world does. This is 'Merica.

[progressoid]

38. WHAT??? The government pays for it???

Holy cow. Does Bernie know this? That almost sounds socialistic!11!

Gee wiz, the next thing you know people will expect the government to pay for elementary, middle and high school.

[TidalWave46]

42. Sanders knowing makes his statement that much worse.

We needs to stop selling these things in such a deceptive manner.

[progressoid]

46. Deceptive?

Sweet baby jeebus, who is being deceived? Virtually every news outlet in the US has been ranting about Sanders and Warren wanting to turn the US into a SoshUliST!1! Sweden. Except for a handful of idiots, everyone knows how this works.

[bluewater]

56. There's a pattern emerging of people making sweeping statements while presenting no evidence.

Is it an attempt to manufacture consent?

What is the manufacturing of consent?

Manufacturing Consent. Their intentions are to manufacture the consent of the people and make sure that their choices and attitudes are altered in such a way that they will always do what is in the government's best interest, which often is the same interest of corporate companies in America. This is what Chomsky meant by propaganda.

I think we need to point this out each time unsubstantiated broad brush statements are made.

[mr_lebowski]

50. It's no more dishonest than my saying it costs $3.40/gal for premium gas round here ...

When in reality there's all kinds of government subsidies to the oil biz, all kinds of socialization of the real costs in terms of the treatment of diseases (asthma, etc) caused by burning these fuels, not mention costs of climate change, etc.

Point being, when you say 'such and such COSTS X amount of dollars', it's pretty understood this is the out of pocket cost to the end consumer.

You wouldn't sit and nitpick my claim that gas costs $3.40/gal where I live, would you?

SO why you doing it here?

[redqueen]

68. Right?

Really confused about how anything he said was dishonest.

One of his central campaign ideas is subsidizing college. Kind of obvious what he's saying.

[George II]

61. No, the people of France pay for it, the government is merely the collection agency...

....and the paymaster.

The money that the government uses to pay for it doesn't grow on trees.

[progressoid]

63. Whoa! My mind is blown!!

I had no idea it worked like that. You mean the people of France willingly pay higher taxes for these services rather than pay loans to banks for the rest of their lives? Crazy!

[bluewater]

73. It almosts sounds like someone is doing the "taxation is theft" argument... doesn't it?

[progressoid]

76. Yep. n/t

[spooky3]

18. Econ 101: There is no free lunch. The questions should be: WHO should pay the costs of

university educations, and how much should each party pay?

[Act_of_Reparation]

23. From each according to his ability.

Or something of the like.

[pangaia]

49. THANK YOU !! This is so freakin' obvious.... :

[redqueen]

28. Because no one is doing anything to rein in ballooning administrative costs.

Just MHO.

[Act_of_Reparation]

35. It isn't "administrative costs"

It's the commodification of higher education that creates huge student bodies that necessitate huge administrations.

If we're going to treat a four-year degree as a baseline requirement for entry-level work, then we need to treat college like we do high school.

[redqueen]

37. Agreed about the commodification,

but there is more going on than just more students.

Fortunately there are initiatives and tools for trustees to use to be able to get a clearer picture of what is going on at their institutions.

(snip)

Once you look up a school on the site, you’ll quickly see its cost for tuition and fees and the average amount of aid students receive, plus the administrative cost per student, instructional cost per student and even how tuition and fees measure up as a percentage of the median household income for the state where the school is located.

At the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, for example, after accounting for inflation, tuition nearly doubled between 2008 and 2016, but the instructional cost per student decreased. It was $12,353 in 2011 but $10,748 in 2016, according to How Colleges Spend Money.

...

https://hechingerreport.org/college-spending-comes-under-closer-scrutiny/

[bluewater]

57. +1000

[nitpicker]

59. The rot set in when universities began to chase ratings

Instead of using retirees to teach classes.

Once upon my time, college cost about $800 a year.

By the time I graduated, they had hired a Big Name

And it was $800 a semester.

Now:

They are forcing froshpeople to live in dorms.

Atop of 14K a year in tuition.

(get your children to become plumbers??)

[George II]

62. A year or two ago it was revealed that nineteen of the top twenty highest paid employees....

Last edited Thu Oct 24, 2019, 05:24 PM - Edit history (1)

....of the State of Connecticut worked for the University of Connecticut.

[bluewater]

74. Was the highest paid the football coach?

That's often true.

lol

[onetexan]

70. $23K?? Where did the Berniecamp get the stat from?

My kids' college education costed us nearly $100K each, and they all chose excellent state schools.

[progressoid]

75. $23,091 per year at a 4 year college.

Pretty close to your 100K.

[onetexan]

82. Gotcha, thanks. Post should have added per year. I believe average student debt at a public

institution is $27K.

[Blue_true]

78. Bernie is using rose-colored math.

He compared four year tuition costs in the USA to one year costs in France. France is definitely cheaper $585 per year per an international study versus $7,173 per year at public USA universities per the same study.

What Bernie glosses over is that student debt is run up by living costs (food, housing, transportation). Even if we made tuition at public universities 100% free, the living cost would still put most students deeply in debt.

The total annual costs in France is 5,160 Euros, per a study of costs in that country. While that is lower than the USA, French students that are not wealthy come away with lots of debt.

I believe the way to seriously impact student debt is to attack both the tuition costs and the living costs. The living costs can be lowers by requiring that students live in dorms and use campus-wide meal plans for food. By being on campus, they can bike or walk as transportation.