So, Bernie's not my first, or even second choice

[TDale313]

That said, I love his message and think we can thank him for pressing the party to address a lot of important issues. I also think the Bernie Bashing is way counterproductive. Attacks on him and the “conventional wisdom” that he’s too far left to get elected? Sorry, not only don’t buy it... if anything it makes me personally more open to him as the potential nominee. Not rational... but I don’t think I’m alone in these arguments making me a) feel a bit defensive on his behalf and b) tired of being told we can’t accomplish things literally every other industrialized nation had figured out.

[progressoid]

1. His support for MFA has pushed a lot of Dems to openly support some version of a single payer system

Something that many were afraid to do just a couple years ago.

[TDale313]

2. Yep.

[cynatnite]

3. He is my very last choice, but if he's the nominee, my vote goes to him. n/t

[tiredtoo]

5. Your last choice?

You are preferring the two DINOs in this race?

[cynatnite]

6. I've never been that big of a fan...

I disagree with him on some things.

What should matter is that we support the nominee no matter who it is.

[tiredtoo]

15. You may not know it but,

I have always been a vote blue no matter who supporter.

[cynatnite]

19. It was pretty bad here during the Hillary vs. Bernie wars of 2016...

but in the end, everyone supported the nominee. I have no worries about that this year.

[empedocles]

26. In 2016 most sort of supported the nominee - that was a problem

[tiredtoo]

54. Don't remember it being as bad as it is now.

But that's just me. I have been trying to dispel the animosity here to the best of my ability. trump is the evil one.
Also the stuff going on last election was possibly the first time the Russians became so active in social media. They very well could have been a major instigator of the fighting here, probably still are.

[TDale313]

55. It was bad.

A lot of Bernie supporters either left or were banned at the time. The site was very divided and heated.

[totodeinhere]

16. That's the attitude we should all have.

Bernie happens to be my first choice because ideologically he is closest to where I am. But that said of course I will vote for whoever our nominee turns out to be. And I am worried that in the heat of the primary campaign some supporters of each candidate may be turned off by the heated rhetoric that can happen in the campaign. So we all need to keep our eyes on the big picture which is winning in November no matter who our nominee is.

[cynatnite]

17. *THIS* n/t

[Codeine]

23. Oddly, while he's my ideological match

the only reason he isn’t my very last choice is because Bloomberg and Gabbard are in the race.

[totodeinhere]

33. I'm not a big fan of Bloomberg's. And Gabbard of course

will not be the nominee. I just hope she doesn't go third party.

[PETRUS]

49. This piques my curiosity.

Are you willing to elaborate?

[Codeine]

50. I don't vote ideology

as much as competency. The presidency is an executive role, and as such requires a dab hand at the tiller. Obama and Clinton knew how to advance agendas and achieve goals, though neither were nearly as liberal as I’d have preferred.

Bernie has lofty goals but absolutely zero demonstrated competency. He won’t get anything done because he’ll be lashing out at everyone and harboring grudges.

[PETRUS]

52. Thanks. nt

[OliverQ]

4. This sub despises Bernie.

I didn't realize this forum was so centrist/center-right.

[question everything]

7. Most Americans are

Most Americans are

[OliverQ]

13. No they aren't.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-moderate-middle-is-a-myth/

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/majority-of-americans-support-progressive-policies-such-as-paid-maternity-leave-free-college.html

Majority of Americans support progressive policies such as higher minimum wage, free college

[Demsrule86]

22. Who has the Senate...governorships, legislatures...who gave us the house...moderates...I don't care

about a poll, and I can look around me and see the truth...this is at best a center left country and maybe after Trump we are now center right.

[OliverQ]

31. The biggest voting block in 2018 were young people.

[Act_of_Reparation]

9. I don't know that they're centrist or right-wing.

They just have such an irrational, intense hatred of Bernie Sanders that their contempt for him extends to his policy positions as well... even those they would have vocally supported eight to ten years ago.

[Happyhippychick]

11. I wonder why?

[Act_of_Reparation]

24. A heady blend of tribalism and sour grapes.

Those who have chosen a side have definitively chosen their side, and each blames the other for 2016.

[BlueWI]

57. THIS.

Pointless rehashing of 2016 is a toxic habit. Plus, conditions have changed.

[empedocles]

27. Pragmatism. BS is Dem progressive primary bait, not good for November

[BlueWI]

56. Actually, we don't know how he'd do in the GE.

Sanders' electibility polls about as well as Biden's does.

His ability to sustain a ground game and fundraise is close to the best in the field.

The level of energy and enthusiasm among supporters is quite astounding, and while it's well short of a majority of Democrats, it has sustained well over time.

His use of social media and clarity of message are strengths that other Democratic candidates should strive to attain.

November will be close for any candidate, but Sanders has some fundamentals that would be helpful, should he win the nom. What other candidates have the assets I mentioned? I wish others did, especially Warren.

[empedocles]

64. The points you raise are quite good, - for blue Dem primaries.

'Socialism', despite all the spinning here, does not fly in the GE world. BS is the great dream Dem candidate for the 'cons.

That has been well established in many threads here - and yes the Bernie bros stubbornly refuse to face the realities, as did BS n 2016.

[BlueWI]

66. Sanders has risks, and strengths, like other candidates.

It will take an all out effort to win in the GE, like we didn't do in 2016 even though we had a candidate that had every conventional qualification.

Negative campaigning is a given - it has to be prepared for. Ever since the original swiftboating, we are underprepared.

I actually think a much bigger problem than the socialist label is too much conventional political thinking among Democrats. We tend to ignore data unless it fits our preconceptions. We don't notice shifts in the electorate - sometimes we don't seem curious in looking for those shifts. And we also let our factionalism as a party overrule our reasoning, as in the case of "Bernie Bros" being the whipping boys for a Clinton campaign that had numerous miscalls, from under-investment in yard signs to flawed turnout models, not only in Florida but in key states where Clinton lost in primaries (WI/MI).

People like to call out Greens, but a larger margin of likely Republican voters dumped Trump/Republicans for Libertarians in WI in 2016. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened in MI too, though I haven't seen the numbers. This kind of significant trend doesn't get noticed, to the detriment of our strategy.

If Warren drops out it will probably be Klobuchar or Sanders as my preference, because they both excel at campaigning. That's the other highly underrated x-factor.

In any case, I think we rely too long on questionable assumptions. It led to doom in 2016. We shouldn't let it happen again.

[OliverQ]

14. It reminds me of the irrational hatred so many people have for Hillary

[Act_of_Reparation]

21. And the inverse: irrational love.

I don't know how or why people get so emotionally invested in politicians. It's sure-fire way to make a tool of yourself.

[ibegurpard]

18. this is why I was hoping that Bernie would not run again

[Codeine]

25. I'm not centrist at all,

I just can’t see him as electable, and his fan club is doing him no favors with their hyper-aggressive attitude and threats to take their toys and go home.

[empedocles]

28. Agreed.

[OliverQ]

34. He's polling nationally +8

against Trump in the newest Quinnipiac poll. He has the largest Latino support. He has the largest youth vote support. He's 2nd highest with African Americans. He polls by far the best with independents and he's the most popular Senator in the country. How is he not electable?

[Codeine]

39. National polls are meaningless.

Most state polls are meaningless because they’re done deals, red or blue with very little variant. The election will cone down to a handful of swing states like it always does, and I don’t think he can pull those states back into our column.

Am I right? Who the fuck knows — I’m just some guy making internet noises like everybody else here. I certainly have no particular wisdom to bring to the table, I just have my vote, always pragmatic in the primary and BlueNoMatterWho in the general.

I won’t come around to Bernie ever, too many bridges not just burnt but blown up and fed into woodchippers last cycle. That said, if he gets the nod he gets my vote, no question.

[OliverQ]

41. Bernie is beating Trump in Wisconsin, Michigan, and PA.

Wisconsin has a long history of supporting Socialists.

[Indepatriot]

8. Thanks for this. I think media-fed fear is a big obstacle.

We've been sold an agenda of diminished expectations and possibilities for 30+ years, and many no longer believe that a people first agenda can win.

[question everything]

10. It is not his plans - that most voters reject - it is also his style, as summerized by the LV Weekly

Sanders is the only clear non-starter. It’s impossible not to regard the Vermont senator in a Trumplike mold—he seldom has shown an ability to build consensus and threatens to use executive orders extensively, just like Trump. It’s also doubtful he could assemble a highly qualified Cabinet, meaning he’d essentially be the left wing version of Trump: isolated, angry, unable to work with others and showing too little respect for dissenting opinions. A Sanders candidacy simply guarantees a Trump second term.

https://lasvegasweekly.com/news/2020/feb/13/our-2020-nevada-caucus-endorsement-amy-klobuchar-a/

[Garrett78]

12. What's so sad is that many here seem just fine with this asshole:

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2020/02/a-republican-plutocrat-tries-to-buy-the-democratic-nomination

[TDale313]

20. Yeah, candidate aside, I find it deeply troubling

that our nomination is being bought (or at least that’s the intention) And if we’re honest... it’s about stopping Bernie.

[Garrett78]

30. Buying people off is what Bloomberg always does.

If he buys his way to the nomination, it will do long-term damage to our party, and he'll lose badly in November. Much of our base will revolt.

[NurseJackie]

42. NO the "base" will not revolt. I don't know exactly who you're thinking of, but it's NOT the "base".

The "base" will turn out to vote for a ham sandwich if it was running as a Democrat. The "base" is not synonymous with fickle youth vote and it's not a synonym for "far left almost to the fringe" vote either. The "base" are the loyal Democrats who always vote for Democrats... we donate, we phone-bank, we canvass, we stuff envelopes, we give our time and our heart and our soul... AND WE VOTE.

[Garrett78]

44. Youth, POC and white suburban women constitute the bulk of the base.

Once more people learn about Bloomberg and he has to actually compete/debate/campaign, many people are going to be deeply offended by what they learn.

[NurseJackie]

46. No, that's not the base. The "base" are not defined by age or gender or ethnicity.

The base are defined by what they do. They are recognized by their loyalty and their passion and their action. The base will always strive to strengthen the party and grow the party. The base don't "quit" because their feelings were hurt. The base don't "protest and vote third party" because their first-choice didn't win. The base don't "trash-talk" the party.

You're using the word "base" but in reality, you're misusing it and in a way that obviously lacks comprehension as to what (and who) the base actually are and what we do. It's insulting. Stop it.

[Garrett78]

47. Actually, yes, those groups have long made up the bulk of the base. That's quite well-known.

[NurseJackie]

48. If anyone refuses to vote for our party's nominee... they're not the base. The base doesn't do that.

If anyone refuses to vote for our party's nominee... they're not the base. The base doesn't do that. The base also doesn't make threats to sit-out or to vote third-party.

What's "quite well known" is that nobody is "automatically" part of the base due to their age or gender or ethnic background... those things are irrelevant. They BECOME the base because of their actions and participation and support and their loyalty through thick and thin.

The people you're describing... the one's who'll you think will "walk" or abandon the party... those aren't the base (they're selfish). The base doesn't pout. The base doesn't try to "punish". The base doesn't need constant validation, strokes or ego-boosters and compliments. All of your arguments are sheer fallacy and nothing more.

[empedocles]

29. If the BS leftists manage to bring JB down further, MB has the cash to beat trump

[Garrett78]

32. JB has proven himself time and again to be a bad presidential candidate.

But Bloomberg is flat-out deplorable.

[empedocles]

35. If BS had 23 Dem candidates attacking him like JB did, BS would no longer be

[NurseJackie]

36. I cannot vote for someone who hates the Democratic party...

I cannot vote for someone who hates the Democratic party to become the leader of the Democratic party.

I also think the Bernie Bashing is way counterproductive.

In contrast, do you think it IS productive for someone to call the Democratic party "corrupt" and "feeble"? What is productive about calling the Democratic party "the party of the one percent" and "the party of the elite"? Where does "conventional wisdom" stand on the usefulness of proclaiming that "there's no difference between the Democrats and the GOP"?

What is it about the lies and smears and demeaning accusations that makes one "more open" to accepting that type of behavior? How is it helpful to openly accuse the Democratic party of "focusing too much on diversity"?

Why would anyone be so concerned about "Bernie bashing" that they are completely incapable of addressing the gleeful denigration and lies that are being told about Democrats and the Democratic party?

Why would any rational person "feel defensive" or defend such things at all? What good purpose does that serve? How does it bring more voters to our party when someone says "both parties are equally corrupt". It only serves to weaken and diminish the party. It creates distrust and disinterest. It wounds the party and divides and creates a toxic resentment.

Negativity generates apathy. Apathy discourages voter turnout. Low voter turnout gives Republicans a chance to steal the elections.

The person that I vote for will be someone who is a loyal and stalwart Democrat who sticks with the party through thick and thin... in good times and bad. Not a here-today/gone-tomorrow candidate who's "sometimes-a-Democrat" maybe/maybe-not peek-a-boo when it suits him. We can do better.

[krissey]

37. I think it is horrible to condition inexperienced youth something is possible, when in actuality

the very people touting it knows it is not possible.

[NurseJackie]

38. What you're describing is exactly what causes (or exacerbates) cynicism.

[krissey]

40. Absolutely. Horribly irresponsible. That is what has bothered me most over the last five years.

And that will stay with the young when they look at the Democratic party for the rest of their life. Unnecessary damage to us.

[TDale313]

43. You push for more than you think you can get right away

It sets up expectations that we will, eventually, get there. It also gives you room to negotiate. If you start from the compromise position more often than not you get nothing.

There is nothing wrong with setting high goals and expectations. It won’t happen over night, but we should and can eventually get to single payer.

[krissey]

45. Young people actually think FREE hc, FREE college, debt FREE of loan is their right.

There was no conversation that it could not happen. They were told repeatedly the big bad Democrats were denying their free.

At least Warren was grounded and made clear the process and ability so people are more reasoned in it. More to what you are saying. Ask for the most and work your way to compromise. That is not what Sanders has been running on and promising.

[NurseJackie]

60. They're in for a very rude awakening.

This is the "well why don't we just print more money" philosophy from people who believe that everything can be cured and solved with a promise and the wave of a magic finger.

[krissey]

61. Yes. Or cry victim and cheating hence that is the reason they do not get free.

[NurseJackie]

63. I've seen that type of behavior before.

[krissey]

67. Yes. Right. Exactly.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

51. Respect.

[bunny planet]

53. Totally agree

thanks for posting....

[W_HAMILTON]

58. I don't think he has "pressed" the party to address shit...

...but he has made it harder for them to actually address issues that were already at the forefront for most Democrats because he has turned a sizable portion of the potential electorate against all things Democratic, which has resulted in disasters like Trump getting elected.

Were Democrats not already fighting for universal healthcare? Were Democrats not already fighting to increase the minimum wage? Were Democrats not already the only ones pushing to address climate change? You can go on and on.

[krissey]

59. Exactly. And conditioning the youngest generation to have a warped view of the

Democratic Party.

[mvd]

62. I appreciate your thread

Attacking and attacking isn’t going to bring the party together. Blaming Bernie for everything is counterproductive and wrong.

[pattyloutwo]

65. Wow, great post

I feel like you put words to the thoughts I’ve been having!