Reminder: the last Dem presidential candidate to win FL (twice) was also smeared as pro-Castro,

[DanTex]

for wanting to lift the Cuba embargo.

Just to illustrate how utterly idiotic this anti-Bernie outrage is, let's do a test. Which one of these quotes is from Bernie, and which one is from Obama? No cheating! Bonus points if anyone can explain why one is totally appropriate and the other one is totally "disqualifying."

(Castro has) made great progress in educating young people. Every child in Cuba gets a basic education, that's a huge improvement...Medical care, the life expectancy of Cubans is equivalent to the US, despite it being a very poor country, because they have access to health care. That's a huge achievement. They should be congratulated.

We’re very opposed to the authoritarian nature of Cuba, but, you know, it’s unfair to simply say everything is bad, you know? When Fidel Castro came into office, you know what he did? He had a massive literacy program. Is that a bad thing? Even though Fidel Castro did it?

[uponit7771]

1. Already debunked, Obama was talking about baby in bath water Sanders praised babies father Castro

[DanTex]

2. LOL. "Debunked"? Those are the actual quotes. Which one do you think is Obama, and which Bernie?

[uponit7771]

3. The false equivalency has already been debunked

[DanTex]

4. So which one do you think is Obama, and which one Bernie?

[uponit7771]

8. The system being praised was Obama, "Castro ... wasn't all that bad" was Sanders

[DanTex]

10. "That's a huge achievement. They should be congratulated." versus "wasn't all bad". Hmmm....

[uponit7771]

12. Yes, Obama OBVIOUSLY wasn't talking about Castro in his "you" were its obvious Sanders

... is talking about Castro cause that's who he defended by saying "Is that a bad thing" !!?!

You have great food America
Uponit7771 created great food in America

no doubt two different statements in regards to praise, Obama is the system Sanders is the person

[DanTex]

15. LOL. Obama was literally recounting what he said *to Raul Castro*.

Those education and healthcare programs, who do you think put those in place? Castro!

It's like if you cooked dinner for a bunch of guests and one person said "Uponit7771 cooked great food" and someone else said "the food was great". It's the same food, cooked by the same person!

[uponit7771]

16. Castro created the system not Raul !! That's why Obama wasn't praising the person cause the person

... he was talking to didn't create that system his brother did.

Obama said the words " You have ... " that has nothing to do with the person he was talking to

When Obama says "You ..." that is text book plural speaking, you have nice food in America vs DanTex created nice food in America

[DanTex]

17. Exactly, Fidel Castro created the system! That's the Castro that Bernie supposedly "praised" in the

exact same way that Obama "praised" him. It's beyond ludicrous to try to pretend that Obama wasn't actually praising (Fidel) Castro's education and healthcare systems. Obama's not an idiot, he knows exactly who set up all that. So does everyone else.

[uponit7771]

20. Then great, we agree Obama praised the system Sanders praised the person. Two different things

... in context of conversation.

[DanTex]

23. LOL. They both praised the education system.

It's the same education system, whether you call it "the system" or "your system" or "Castro's system".

[uponit7771]

25. Sanders ***DIRECTLY*** praised the person who created it by name Obama praised the

... system that was created while not lifting the person who did so cause he was a dictator.

We know the difference, lets see if there is praise for any more dictators going forward.

[rzemanfl]

13. It's really simple. Obama never interspersed his speech with

"you know." He is eloquent.

[LanternWaste]

14. Still relying on the ignoratio elenchi fallacies, eh?

Honestly, logic and critical thought aren't as difficult as you may think them.

[Laelth]

5. We can't win by being phony Republicans.

We have to stand for something, and the things we stand for have always been called “socialism” by the Republicans.

We are of no value to the nation if we refuse to fight for our own ideals.



-Laelth

[mr_lebowski]

28. Nearly everything, that's true ...

Conservative Southerners famously called race mixing 'communism' ...

[Laelth]

30. No doubt. n/t

Sigh.

-Laelth

[cherryinpa]

6. OK

DanTex I get what you're saying and we should not fall for the trap of letting the other side define us. But isn't there a broader picture around WHY Bernie had to come out as so pro-Castro? I mean he could just have said nothing or obfuscate. But he is very clearly pro-Castro. So now he can be defined by that by the GOP in an area we need to win.

And if we move away from that, what if he can't control himself in any other area too and makes similarily non-mainstream positions. It seems we'd just get hammered by this continuously. I'm not negative on Bernie overall, but he's got to know when to be a little less outside the mainstream.

[DanTex]

9. He is not "very clearly pro-Castro." Again I'll ask you which quote you think is Obama's and

which quote is Bernie's, and why you think the two quotes are so drastically different from each other.

[mr_lebowski]

29. They're not that different in spirit, but Obama didn't name-drop Castro

(except via the author's interjection in parens at beginning).

That makes how they're perceived different, regardless of the spirit being very similar.

Also, Obama didn't honeymoon in the USSR. He didn't run as a Democratic Socialist. He's never said 'I'm a Socialist' into a camera. Et Cetera.

What matters in a POTUS race, for better or worse, is much more about 'perceptions' than it is about 'facts'.

Praising 'what Cuba has accomplished' is one thing, praising Castro directly is considered anathema by a great many people. Just like one could get away with praising aspects of China, but praising Chairman Mao won't go over well in the USA.

[DanTex]

31. Obama's quote starts with "I said this to President (Raul) Castro".

So, yes, Obama did name-drop Castro, just not Fidel Castro.

Let me ask you this, honestly. Do you think if Bernie had said verbatim what Obama said, the outrage against him right now would be any less?

To me, the answer is clearly no. The anti-Bernie pundits, and the media, and everyone else, would be just as outraged at Bernie praising Castro's communist system in Cuba. It's not the fact that Bernie said "Castro" in the middle of the sentence rather than before it that is causing the outrage.

The outrage is because people who are already anti-Bernie are panicking and taking every possible excuse to try to come up with some magic "gotcha" to take Bernie down.

[sandensea]

7. Good point. There's a tendency to view all Cuban-Americans as right-wing fanatics. It's just not so.

There are some, of course - but those are mostly the older voters. The ones with bitter memories of having to leave Cuba, and (the way they see it) "Kennedy's betrayal" in the Bay of Pigs.

Younger Cuban-Americans care much more about what's happening in the here and now - here in the U.S., and now with out-ofcontrol medical and educational costs as well as supercharged racism.

Plus, there are at least as many Latin Americans of other nationalities in Florida. They largely don't consider the Castros an issue - but instead often have terrible memories of right-wing dictatorships.

Murdered relatives, lost property, Bush-style economic collapse (but much more intense). They know what Trump and his ilk can bring about, if left to their own devices.

[honest.abe]

11. Its too late.. Bernie has already stepped in it with his Castro bromance comments.

He has lost the south Florida Cuban vote forever.

[DanTex]

19. Like Obama did? Uh, wait.

[honest.abe]

32. President Obama's Cuba policy was not entirely welcomed by Cubans in south Florida.

But he was acting as the President of the United States trying to improve relations with Cuba... not as a candidate for the Democratic nomination. Huge difference.

BTW.. Sanders is toast in Florida.

[ehrnst]

35. Uh, wait... Obama was talking about something completely different

BS was talking about what he thinks Castro's revolution brought to Cuba in 1959.

President Obama was talking about the post 2014 strides that Cuba had made as part of the negotiated pre-conditions for normalizing US-Cuba relations. Cuba had to meet benchmarks during the gradual process of moving towards normalization.

You're welcome.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

22. So I guess Obama, Castro, and Sanders can have a 3-way, then.

[totodeinhere]

18. We have reached the grasping at straws stage.

Bernie's political opponents are going to proceed to throw everything but the kitchen sink at him. But I think that Bernie and his advisers are aware of this and Bernie will not be deterred. And a lot of these attacks will most likely backfire.

[TwilightZone]

21. False equivalence is false.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=578640

[DanTex]

24. So which quote do you think was Bernie's, and which was Obama's? lol "false equivalence"

[rzemanfl]

27. Obama does not intersperse his speech with "you know."

He is eloquent.

[awesomerwb1]

26. Dear lord. Relentless

Besides losing FL in a landslide: It's the HOUSE. We will lose a few reps in FL with Bernie.

I can't wait to read the spin on that.

[Coleman]

33. Different goals

Obama's goal was to move toward open relations with Cuba. Increase US markets, permit families to actually visit one another, soften the Cuban government's aproach to governing. Sander's goal was to praise and defend Castro and the Revolution.

I will agree that the US foreign policy toward Cuba sucked. It should have been one of postive engagement. And stranding Batista.

[NurseJackie]

36. "Sander's goal was to praise and defend Castro and the Revolution."

Obama's goal was to move toward open relations with Cuba.

Sander's goal was to praise and defend Castro and the Revolution.

[David__77]

34. Obama was right to restore relations with Cuba!

A great accomplishment!