Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumMe Too Founder Tarana Burke Calls Biden's Response 'Disrespectful And Inexcusable'
In a Twitter thread, Burke argued that the seven women who say they received unwanted physical contact from Biden were right to speak up and that the likely 2020 contender appears be deeply missing the point they are trying to make.
Its about bodily autonomy, its about power and leadership, wrote Burke, who first started using the phrase Me Too to raise awareness about the pervasiveness of sexual misconduct in 2006.
...
Burke reiterated in her tweets that nobody is calling for [Biden] to be incarcerated or sent away. But just because his behavior isnt as extreme as that of disgraced film producer Harvey Weinstein ― who is facing rape charges ― that doesnt mean it should be ignored, Burke said. Doing so, she argued, will only help deepen a culture of silence around all sexual harassment and violence.
Full Story
I stand with Tarana Burke on this.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
secondwind
(16,903 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Chemisse
(30,813 posts)And because she started a movement, she speaks for all women everywhere who support MeToo.
Clearly she must be in line for canonization!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
helpisontheway
(5,008 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)You don't think attitudes toward things that make women uncomfortable is important?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
greymattermom
(5,754 posts)My boss used to put his hand on my shoulder. I hated it, not because it was sexual, but because it was a dominance gesture. Real hugs are totally different.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
bitterross
(4,066 posts)We've been here and done this. Reposting it is just bad for everyone.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=56182
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
helpisontheway
(5,008 posts)He might have invaded their personal space but he did not sexually assault them. He apologized and now they want to take everything he says and disect it. Beyond sick of all of it. Thiscaused us to lose someone like Al Franken too. We needed people like him to help us take down the orange asshole.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)because it wasn't sexual assault? How close to sexual assault does it need to be before it's OK for them to say something?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
lapfog_1
(29,205 posts)did they remove his hand from their shoulders and say "your physical expression of either support or sympathy is not needed or wanted"
did they say anything at the time at all?
Did they complain when others (especially those who they now support for POTUS) did the exact same thing as Joe?
If they didn't complain about Bernie Sanders putting HIS hands on their shoulders either then or now... why the dual standard?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)There is no reason why they might feel like they can't say anything at the time?
They can't feel uncomfortable with one person but comfortable with another for their own reasons?
Maybe Biden gave them a creepy feeling for a multitude of options and Sanders didn't? I don't know. That would be something that would be up to them to decide.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
lapfog_1
(29,205 posts)and if the standard is... "don't invade personal space because you don't know what the person wants" then why would there NOT be a complaint about other prominent politicians touching these women in the exact same way (just because they feel now that the physical expression is OK from some but not others).
Neither of these male politicians (and why would a woman who doesn't like to be touched need to restrict the complaints to only men who touched them?) knew before hand if the touching was unwanted... so they both acted inappropriately... but only one (who is potentially running against the other one) is called out as a #metoo criminal bad person.
#metoo will lose support if it is used as a tool to discredit good men who did "nothing different" that others that the "victims" now support in politics. This will let the real offenders (like our current "grab them by the pussy" president) off because "how is what Trump did different than Joe Biden?" in the minds of many...
Witness Al Franken and what it did to his career... and he was one of our best Democrats.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)I can still be next to her and not put my hands on her. Why is that so hard?
And if I feel like it is appropriate, why can't I just ask? Is that some burden to me?
All of these male politicians assumed that the touch was wanted and was OK. That's the problem. Maybe sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. The problem is that males often just assume that it is OK and don't make sure and are pretty crappy at reading the signs.
This can't just be about saying that "grab them by the pussy" is bad but anything less than that is fine. We need to have a discussion about males putting their hands on the small of the back of women as they pass them. We (males) need to learn that that is pretty shitty, too. Nobody is saying that an unwanted hand on the shoulder is the same as "grabbing their pussy." But it's still shitty and we should still talk about it.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
lapfog_1
(29,205 posts)but then when a woman I used to work with now tries to sell me and my new company computer equipment... she hugs me "hello" on every sales visit. Should I care? She does it without asking me if it is ok for her to do so. Should I call my previous employers HR and make a complaint? These sorts of "offenses" against one's personal space are innocent in nature... no one is offering me sex in exchange for me purchasing something for which she would be granted a commission (we are talking about millions of dollars on revenue for her company). No one is sexually harassing me. I am not going to wait for years and when she is up for promotion then I will register a complaint with her HR department, sue her for sexual harassment or complain on a twitter channel about her behavior.
Because it isn't a big deal.
I think these women who are complaining about Joe Biden right now are doing so purely for political purposes and to try to remove him from the field of candidates for President... because they have either been told to do so by another candidate they support or they thought of it themselves. And I believe that to be despicable.
It's not like this is new behavior for Joe... and why didn't the complaints come when the #metoo movement started and everyone was outing truly gross behavior including rape or attempted rape. Why wait until Joe is about to announce a run for President.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)And are there women that might make claims to hurt someone? I'm sure there might be. But I'm going to continue to live my life with the assumption that those are pretty far and few between. That when a woman tells me that something makes her uncomfortable, I'm going to listen, believe her, and not tell her that she is wrong about that and that it is OK that that guy touched her. I'm not going to dismiss it. I'm not going to make it OK for others to dismiss it either so that we get more of that "culture of silence" that the article in the OP talks about.
I also don't feel I need to hold all women to a timeline that makes me feel better about things. If a woman wants to talk about her reality right now, then that is a good time for her to talk about it. If she wants to do it X days from now, that's a good time, too.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
helpisontheway
(5,008 posts)What else do they want from him? For him not to run?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)And, I'm guessing they want a discussion and not to be dismissed.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
John Fante
(3,479 posts)They don't like physical contact of any kind. We get it. Move along.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Lazy Daisy
(928 posts)Here's a kewpie doll.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Chemisse
(30,813 posts)If they really wanted a discussion about being uncomfortable about a moment of having their space invaded, they would spend 10 minutes talking about it to their therapist, or their spouse.
Or they would forget about it in an hour like the rest of us do when uncomfortable things happen - like all the time!
These women don't 'want a discussion' about their tender little feelings. They just don't want Biden to be president. Or possibly they were paid to not want him to be president.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)with sexual harassment. Burke needs to stop relating the two in the same breath.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
WeekiWater
(3,259 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)I searched the last couple of pages and didn't see it.
My bad.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cha
(297,322 posts)search engine the next time.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)We still hear about Sanders having more than one house. And a million other things that he did 4 years ago.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
R B Garr
(16,954 posts)isnt about MeToo.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)But when people complain that we shouldn't talk about it because it's *GASP* a whole week old, that rings of some serious hypocrisy that should be pointed out.
I supported Sanders in 2016 but do not this time around. I don't think he's right for the time. Nor do I think Biden is.
But the level of dismissiveness toward the MeToo concerns on DU is troublesome at the least.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
R B Garr
(16,954 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
R B Garr
(16,954 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)It is important that we talk about this. YMMV, I guess.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
R B Garr
(16,954 posts)Its about Sanders.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)My response about Sanders was that someone complained about this being brought up AGAIN when it's *GASP* FIVE DAYS OLD. How many posts a day do we have to see about Sanders and his stupid tax returns? Those that take part in those kind of threads don't get to say that this shouldn't be posted after 5 days.
But, yeah, you go ahead and keep saying this is somehow magically about Sanders. When I've clearly shown support for a different candidate (it's not even like I'm "undecided" to hide something)
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
R B Garr
(16,954 posts)confession. This isnt about MeToo.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)What "change confession"? As to why I'm not supporting Sanders? It's actually pretty much the reason I'm not supporting Biden who I liked as VP (hint: it has nothing to do with the point of the OP).
But, again, if it makes you feel better to think something, then I guess you have at it.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
R B Garr
(16,954 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
True Blue American
(17,986 posts)A Clerk put his hand on my shoulder at the grocery yesterday. I have had a couple of conversations with him.
I took it as a gesture of friendship.
Good God, this is getting ridiculous and my fellow Dems and those wanting attention have gone off the rails!
The MeToo movement is supposed to be about sexual harassment! Not idiotic space years later!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,788 posts)millionaires and billionaires is one himself.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)you might want to be careful because I'm sure the double posting police that came after me here will go after you. As will the "old news" brigade.
Actually, I know they won't, but, you know....
But, yeah, I'm not pulling for Sanders to win this time around. I'll clearly vote for him if he does, though.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Indygram
(2,113 posts)I can't even begin to express how distressing and hurtful it is to see a genuinely GOOD person being pig piled on as if his well meaning gestures were even REMOTELY comparable to me being violently beaten and raped. People are not mind readers. If someone's well meaning gestures make you feel uncomfortable then SAY SOMETHING right then. Don't decide to use your discomfort with an innocent gesture to try to destroy and demonize another person.
This feels like being violated all over again at how MeToo is being minimized and now people trying to speak out about sexual assault won't be taken as seriously anymore.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)But I don't know how it is minimizing the movement when it is the founder of the movement talking about it. She puts it into perspective of her movement.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Indygram
(2,113 posts)I don't know how much more clear I can be. It's deeply insulting and hurtful.
When someone tries to hug me and I don't want a hug I just say, "I don't like hugs." Then they don't try to hug me. I don't wait a few years and then go to the press and try to intimidate them into not applying for a job they want and are qualified for.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
hlthe2b
(102,292 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)And I don't think anyone is saying that what these women are talking about is the same as what you experienced. One of the paragraphs I quoted says explicitly that it isn't the same.
There myriad reasons why one might not feel they are able to tell someone they don't want physical contact from someone else. I think that is the discussion that is trying to be had here.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Indygram
(2,113 posts)That is what the MeToo movement is SUPPOSED to be about. It doesn't say "Coddling for people unwilling to speak up and set boundaries."
https://metoomvmt.org/
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)I don't see a lot of empathy here sometimes.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Indygram
(2,113 posts)Have you been violently beaten and raped? I have.
Have you been groped against your will multiple times through your lifetime? I have.
Have you been sexually harassed dozens of times? I have.
All of the things I mentioned have one thing in common...the perpetrator sought or got sexual gratification from what they did. THAT was the CLEAR intent. Joe Biden's uninvited and sometimes unwelcome hugs were NEVER anything other than an attempt to provide comfort, support and encouragement. Trying to group it with something dirty and disgusting is beneath contempt and needs to stop.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)And, again, I am sorry that you are.
And neither I nor the article I quote are comparing what Biden did to what you experienced. I'm sorry if I gave that impression.
But do you not think that she is right that the attitudes we have toward these women help to perpetuate a culture of silence? Do you think that by having empathy toward what these women have gone through we can help with creating a better culture for the healing of people who have gone through what you have? That empathy is always better? That we can be better at empathy?
And I would also reiterate that if you want to continue this discussion elsewhere in the event that this overall thread is triggering, I am fine with that. I do want to know your viewpoint on it all.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
padah513
(2,503 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
flotsam
(3,268 posts)"We cant only get up in arms when its a Weinstein situation. These lesser talked about, often ignored violations and indignities are what help deepen a culture of silence around all sexual harassment and violence."
So she either conflates what Biden did with sexual harassment and violence or is just using #metoo to advance her politics. Either way she can Fuck off.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)She is not saying they are the same crime. She is saying that reacting to these women that have accused Biden like people on here are is just going to entrench this culture of silence. Women that have a truth to tell are going to see how these women are treated for just saying they were uncomfortable with what Biden did and they are not going to tell their truth for fear of being treated the same or worse.
And she's right. And you telling her to fuck off because she makes that point doesn't help, either. And isn't something I would expect on a liberal web site. But, yeah, the woman of color that started a social movement to empower women can fuck off because you support some old white guy for president. Jesus.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
flotsam
(3,268 posts)You don't expect a democrat on a democratic discussion board to defend the democratic front runner from a spurious attack against his character while she is supporting a different democrat. And yes-she can fuck off!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)Seems like a shitty position to take.
And neither I nor the article in the OP are saying Biden shouldn't run. Just that we need to have the discussion and make women feel like they can tell their truth when they want to.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
flotsam
(3,268 posts)I'm done with you.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cha
(297,322 posts)that you can't bring Joe Biden down?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Response to Cha (Reply #158)
BannonsLiver This message was self-deleted by its author.
Cha
(297,322 posts)desperate.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)and I like him, he won't win a general. Biden can and will hence all the attacks.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
quickesst
(6,280 posts).... that they are those who cannot grasp the wisdom in your words. A genuine voice of reason born out of a tragic event. Thank you
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Desert grandma
(804 posts)What many of us women are thinking.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Lazy Daisy
(928 posts)But know you are not alone. 1 in 4 women have been raped. In varying degrees from passed out and raped to full on violent beating and rape. Include sexually assaulted and that number goes up a great deal. Many women don't report their rapes. I didn't report mine.
Talking about the trauma of feeling uncomfortable when somebody you hardly know shows too familiar of affection, then feeling loss of control about what can be done about it because that person holds some sort of sway doesn't diminish your trauma in any way. We don't measure a woman's trauma by the severity. This isn't a contest. There are no medals given for having a gun held to your head while your drunken spouse does what he wants to your body, repeatedly. Nor do we tell a women who had her ass grabbed on the bus to just get over it, it wasn't that bad.
Joe Biden is an affectionate person. That's great for the people he calls friends and loved ones. But this isn't the first time his affectionate ways have been brought to his attention. In the past it's been called out and the person in question gave him cover, as women have been taught to do for generations. So Joe, being a man with power and prestige listened to all the people telling him it was OK and he's a great guy, because society told him it was OK and he's a great guy.
Now we have women speaking out. Speaking truth. It's not OK. This is my life, my personal space, my voice. You don't get to be overly familiar with me because YOU like to be affectionate. You don't get to be a great guy at my expense.
When the story came out, I gave Joe a pass because society has been telling him his whole life his actions were OK. When he apologized and said he's listening and learning I thought he was FKN awesome. Then he made fun..............................
So now we're back to Joe Biden getting to enjoy being an affectionate person to whomever he chooses cause he's a great guy and damn it, he's entitled to feel good about giving affection to people he barely knows.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Chemisse
(30,813 posts)When the MeToo Movement started, I was really emotionally moved to be able to say - out loud, in public - 'me too' about being raped.
The realization that most women had suffered some kind of significant sexual assault in their lives seemed to give us all strength, and forge it into a movement.
Suddenly every shoulder touch - even those that are admittedly nonsexual! - are condemned by MeToo? That is an insult to all the women who have been raped to be equated with those who have 'suffered' a kiss on the head.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
hlthe2b
(102,292 posts)The backlash you are seeing is from those who may well have given all the accusers every benefit of the doubt, (as did I) had sympathy for them (as did I), but after weeks of the rehash, Biden's repeated mea culpas, and most of all, their total lack of grace in accepting, has turned many of us off, totally. I no longer hold any neutrality towards those who keep rehashing over and over and over and over. To me (and many others), that just SCREAMS agenda. I'm not even supporting Biden (at least yet), but damn, this just pisses me off daily.
Maybe it is time for some of these individuals--who proclaim they are so "offended" and remain so weeks later-- to go scream at their elderly grandparents for deigning to HUG THEM! OMG! Get it out of your system!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)It resonated with me after his tone deaf joke about asking for consent less than 24 hours after his apology. Those jokes lead me to believe that he really doesn't get the point of the discussion.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
hlthe2b
(102,292 posts)and far less human than the rest of us... I don't think I or much of anyone I know could endure that level of "judgment".
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)But if someone asked me to stop, I didn't then turn to the next person and make a joke about it. I was sorry for my mistake and tried to do better.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
hlthe2b
(102,292 posts)Too bad more apparently do not.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)And that cut against the apology pretty hard.
And if I were on his campaign staff, I would have had him make the video apology earlier rather than issuing a statement through a spokesperson because I don't think that helped him as much.
But we still need to talk about it. Nobody--not I nor the article in the OP--are saying Biden shouldn't be "forgiven." But the article in the OP and I both agree that we need to continue this discussion.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Merlot
(9,696 posts)A lot of people don't seem to get the point.
I don't think this is about disqualifying Biden from running. Better for Biden that these stories come out now than closer to the election.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)Doesn't change anything about my response to the original.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
hlthe2b
(102,292 posts)What on earth? Geebus
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,357 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
karynnj
(59,504 posts)That said, I think that she is going too far here. This episode did the OPPOSITE of "deepening a culture of silence around all sexual harassment and violence"
First of all, Biden's actions, inappropriate as some of them were, were not violence or even sexual harassment. In the years he was in the Senate, there were some senators on each side whose actions DID rise to that level. That was never Biden's reputation. If there was anything that rose to that level, it would have discovered when the Obama team vetted him - and if they missed it it would have been an issue in 2008.
So, at this point, you had a man who most people who actually know him call decent, compassionate ... and too demonstrative. He has acknowledged that and says that he will change his behavior.
The magnitude in the change in the Democratic half of the population on this can be measured by the fact that Joe Biden is being called out on this by many of the same people who were huge fans of Bill Clinton, who had far bigger problems - though not the Republican exaggerations.
Some of this might be simply a desire to nominate a woman, but it is clear that - even with everything shown - the majority of Americans do not see this as disqualifying for Biden.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Polly Hennessey
(6,799 posts)men on the other side and no looking across the aisle. Now, the only space women can/will/may invade will be each others space.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)could actually start paying attention to what they are doing and not assume that everyone wants to be touched by them.
Shocking, I know.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Indygram
(2,113 posts)Who express that minimizing their trauma by lumping unwanted hugs under the same umbrella as violent rape is deeply distressing?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)I've said that before.
But I also read a lot from other survivors (like on the MeToo website) who say that this type of discussion is important, too. That a society which dismisses the "small" violations like Biden committed is part of creating a rape culture. So I have contradictory messages. I'm empathetic to what you are saying. I am. If you want to bow out of this conversation and trash this thread because it triggers you, I fully understand that. If you want to have this conversation through messages so that you don't need to read the rest of the thread, I'm happy to do that. I would love to listen to your thoughts on this whole mess.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Indygram
(2,113 posts)You minimized my trauma again with this post.
Intent matters and I think yours on this thread has become quite clear.
I support Biden 100% and the more this agenda is pushed the more I find his accusers motives to be highly suspect.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)So, I clearly had no intent to minimize your trauma.
I have offered to continue this discussion more privately (on several occasions) so that you wouldn't have to have the trauma of this thread. I'm not sure what more I can do.
I have friends who have experienced the trauma you have and they have indicated that this type of discussion is necessary. So, as I mentioned earlier, I have conflicting views on whether this should be discussed, now. So I don't know how you would tell me to proceed in that reality. I both should and shouldn't talk about this. Which is why I have offered to have a discussion about that without away from this thread that bothers you, and I have indicated you can trash this thread so it doesn't continue to trigger you. I'm sorry that it is.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
True Blue American
(17,986 posts)Real Trauma is being ridiculed by these silly accusations!
You have every right to be angry! I am too, for you!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Polly Hennessey
(6,799 posts)no eye contact. Whew, now everyone is safe.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)That's your response to MeToo concerns? Really? Maybe you are in the wrong place.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Polly Hennessey
(6,799 posts)Ive been here since the beginning of DU. The MeToo movement is becoming a caricature of itself and, to that end, diminishing the impact of a serious problem in this country.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cha
(297,322 posts)because they disagree with you?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
True Blue American
(17,986 posts)A male who thinks he speaks for women!
I stand for the real victims!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cha
(297,322 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
awesomerwb1
(4,268 posts)That sentence I quoted from....WTF?
Seriously? Biden's and Weinstein's behaviors are galaxies apart and there is no reason to use them together in a sentence unless....
I guarantee you more people are seriously considering Joe Biden the more these silly comments keep being made.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)You don't think that part is true? Even on this thread we have the "well they didn't say it at the time" responses. There are "they shouldn't say this about good people like Biden" on this thread. If you don't see that this attitude helps that culture of silence, I think you might want to consider it more.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
awesomerwb1
(4,268 posts)I refuse to be a part of this silly hugger vs rapist = similar...stuff in this case. C ya.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)I don't know why it makes you feel better to think that it is.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Polly Hennessey
(6,799 posts)to similar. I am saying it too. Diminish your cause and everyone loses.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)The article in the OP makes it clear they are different.
It's about not continuing a culture of silence.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)61. If you don't want a hug, then you can tell her.
And are there women that might make claims to hurt someone? I'm sure there might be. But I'm going to continue to live my life with the assumption that those are pretty far and few between. That when a woman tells me that something makes her uncomfortable, I'm going to listen, believe her, and not tell her that she is wrong about that and that it is OK that that guy touched her.
My bold.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)Perhaps I am wrong, but my assumption about the post I responded to was that the poster was talking about a woman giving hugs. Then, in the paragraph, I was talking about myself, a male, and how I would respond to what a female tells me--the point of the OP.
If you have any insight into what I'm missing, I can perhaps respond better.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Throughout this thread, and the myriad of others on the subject, posters have suggested that women should be encouraged to express their boundaries - in order to avoid those boundaries being violated. You've fought back against that, because, apparently, everyone should know in advance what those boundaries are.
Yet here you've recommended the same for both a woman (in the subject line) and a man (presumably) in the body of the response. That's because you've properly, albeit accidentally, defaulted to the appropriate manner in which this should be dealt.
It may not be human nature for you to touch other people without first obtaining permission, but it would appear that you're actually just posturing.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)So I don't know who I'm "hiding" the date. You can follow the link.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LexVegas
(6,067 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)Take some breaths. It'll be OK.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)and screaming about it, or just the ones you have a bias against?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LexVegas
(6,067 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)If you want to know that thing that bothers me most about him, it would be his comment about SJW when he was in college. Feel free to start a discussion about that if you want me to contribute.
And, again, for the record, I linked to the original article and hid nothing about it. I gave full access to it in the OP. Had I not done that, you MIGHT have a point.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)yeah your good faith is shown in your abusive smart-ass responses to me. lol.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)you're shit-stirring with an old article and trying to deny it
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)two-way street so you have fun with your little game.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)but "getting back" at some perceived slight you have that I actually had the audacity to post a 5-day-old article about an important topic.
I will say now that my response to you, if I even see your post and care enough to click on it, will be a link to this thread where you make your intent clear.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)wah.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)And I would never use four exclamation points (though you don't put that in quotation marks) because no self-respecting English teacher would.
It's good that you have found a way to turn off the all caps, though. Nice job.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)wow that black police chief story...
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)over an article that was written only 5 days ago. What's your actual beef here?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LexVegas
(6,067 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
added to ignore
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LexVegas
(6,067 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,107 posts)POLITICS 04/05/2019 06:52 pm ET. Right under the Zulily ad and above the Me Too Founder Tarana Burke Calls Bidens Response Disrespectful And Inexcusable header. Can't miss it.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
I have bread thats older than this article.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Autumn
(45,107 posts)or that they have a expiration date.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LexVegas
(6,067 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Drifter
(4,751 posts)You make a mockery of the me too movement by insinuating that the allegations against Biden are remotely similar to actual sexual assault. We have a president who openly bragged about his sexual predatory behavior. That's where your energy should be focused.
Cheers
Drifter
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)Interesting spin on that.
I'm sure she will take your direction on how to do a social movement with the seriousness it deserves.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
BannonsLiver
(16,396 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)the behavior took place.
And questioning the motives of the women who complained is, in my view, part of the problem.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)I would add questioning the timing, too. Which I get is part of the motive, but we don't have to have a specific timeline for people to speak their truth. I didn't see people on here asking why women waiting for a specific time to talk about Harvey W. Or Trump. Again, not comparing the actions as equitable, but people feel the strength to talk at different times. My job at that point is to listen and have empathy.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)MeToo explains the why of the silence.
When someone accuses a powerful figure, or many someones, the tendency of the public and the media is to assume bad intent on the part of the accuser(s).
If anyone was a victim in the past, and they find the courage to speak now, they should be encouraged.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
jalan48
(13,870 posts)Presidential race, if he declares himself a candidate. It will effectively neuter any talk about Trump and his sexual behavior or at best turn the race into a discussion of sexual behavior, pushing other issues about Trump's actions as President into the background.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)Others might. Having this discussion is never a bad thing.
And neither I nor the article in the OP are saying Biden should be disqualified for this. Just that the discussion needs to happen.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
jalan48
(13,870 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)The article in the OP is just admitting out front that they aren't saying they are the same. Which, apparently, was needed given all the hand wringing on a liberal website. Just imagine what the non-liberals are saying. The article in the OP wants everyone to know that they aren't the same. But that the reactions to the "lesser" of the offenses can help create/foster/continue a culture of silence, too.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
athena
(4,187 posts)I just wanted to let you know that someone out there agrees with you and appreciates your clarity on this issue.
Im not even young any more, but just last Friday, I was at a bar where a drunk older man my husband and I were talking to kept touching my back. It was behavior that is considered socially acceptable, but there was a definite sexual element to it, and I hated it. There was nothing I could do to stop it without making a scene, and Ive since been dreading seeing this person again. I look back on all the times when I was a young woman and drunk older men at parties would touch my back or arm or hug me. Im not a touchy-frely person, and I never liked what these men did, but I knew that if I didnt accept it with a smile, I would be seen as a trouble maker, as if the men were just being friendly and I was the one who had a sick mind for seeing something sexual in their behavior. When a man is all touchy-feely with young or attractive women but keeps a respectful distance from other men, he is committing low-level sexual harassment, and he knows it. Thats not to say that an unwelcome touch is equivalent to sexual assault or rape, but it is sexist and disrespectful and should not be excused and celebrated as is being done here. I look forward to a time when women are not treated like pieces of meat, people stop assuming that young women like being touched by older men, and women are accorded the same level of respect as men. I fear I wont be here to see it.
ETA: I fully expect to be flamed for not saying something to stop the mans behavior and coming here to complain about it instead. Because, of course, Im the problem. A man couldnt possibly be expected to imagine that the women whose skin and body he likes touching dont enjoy the attention.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)My wife and I are solidly in our 50s. She is an attorney. She tells me often of judges, other attorneys, etc that feel just fine putting their hands on here and there is very little she can say or do given the impact it would have potentially on her case. Like me, she doesn't think that this disqualifies Biden (though she also thinks his joke after the apology was seriously tone deaf and will hurt him), but she agrees we need to have this discussion so that men can realize what they are doing even when they don't have the intent of Trump to be "grabbing pussies."
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
athena
(4,187 posts)Even if men asked for permission, as you note, in many cases there is a power differential that doesnt allow the woman to give a free answer. We need to start expecting men to treat women with respect, not ask for permission to treat women like objects.
I agree with you and your wife. I dont think Biden is a sexual predator. Hes just from a different time. I really liked his earlier response, which indicated that he understands and respects changing attitudes. As for the joking, I have a husband who loves to tease and crack unexpected jokes, so I imagine that Biden just wanted to be funny. He has an unfortunate tendency to make inappropriate comments, which is why I dont think he will last long as a candidate. I do like and respect him, but I think we have much stronger candidates running.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)And, yeah, I get that Biden is the fun uncle. The main reason I don't think he will do well is that when faced with Trump's usual insult tactic, Biden is going to want to roll up his sleeves and get into it with him and that is just going to mean Trump wins. We need someone that can approach it like AOC does to those that come after her. Quick FU and then back to the policy discussion. Main reason right now that I like Pete, though there are others for sure.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
athena
(4,187 posts)After two terms of a given president, Americans tend to pick someone who has the opposite personality and demeanor. Thats how Obama won after two terms of GWB. Trump hasnt had two terms yet, but hes so extreme that a lot of people are fed up with him. I understand that many liberals want someone who will express their anger, but the wise choice would be a candidate who is Trumps opposite: civilized, deliberate, well-spoken, and thoughtful. Thats why I think someone like Warren, who would normally seem unelectable in this macho country, might have a chance this time around.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ProudMNDemocrat
(16,786 posts)Unlike the Orange Puke in the White House, who slammed the women who dared to stand up to him.
Ms. Burke can be upset with Biden's video, but he was contrite and will be more aware of his actions and surroundings. Put me in a room with a Joe and nothing will happen. I am a hugger too, and I will my consent to be hugged.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Through Steubenville, Isla Vista and the genesis of MeToo, so many people were either silent, or defending actions taken against women.
But now... now that the the time is politically convenient, now that expediency compels us to take notice for the sake of a sacred cow candidate, now that it is to our advantage to speak out against the gray areas (and implicitly speak out against a different candidate) does everyday sexism become an issue.
The allegation will fly fast... "I've always stood with women!!!"
Imagine that.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BannonsLiver
(16,396 posts)I stand with Joe Biden, not with people who are working their asses off to see Donnie gets another 4 years.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)I'll add that to the list of things I never thought I'd read on a liberal web site.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
BannonsLiver
(16,396 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
BannonsLiver
(16,396 posts)Shes basically like that hypocrite from Italy who slept with a 15 year old boy, and Rose McGowan who tried to make it all about Rose. Both did a lot more harm than good. .
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
bitterross
(4,066 posts)Your re-posting this was completely unnecessary and makes me wonder about your motives.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=56182
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)So if you have anything new to offer, let me know and I'll reply to that.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
bitterross
(4,066 posts)I started reading your posts. You've offered nothing new that was not covered in the earlier thread.
So, you've done nothing to advance the cause of electing a Democrat in the next election. In fact, you've harmed the cause by being divisive.
NOTICE: I DID NOT say you've done nothing to advance the cause of electing Biden. No, I said "Democrat." Because all you've done is cause more bullshit fighting about something that was properly dying out.
I hope you're happy all you've accomplished is being divisive again. You probably are. Probably are very happy you have a thread with so many responses. You probably feel you've contributed to the discourse.
You haven't.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)from the desperate defense of VP Biden is getting deep enough to drown in.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
BannonsLiver
(16,396 posts)I know its frustrating the plan didnt work.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
NoMoreRepugs
(9,435 posts)This Burke woman should be ashamed of herself.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)Seems like a reasonable sentence.
Do you have some insight into the claim that the reactions to the women who spoke their truth about Biden is helping to support a culture of silence? Because I think that claim is extremely valid.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
NoMoreRepugs
(9,435 posts)It's not in the same fucking universe. I say again, its total bullshit.
Whataboutism and both sides do it horseshit and crap like this where the bar is set at Weinstein and Biden isn't quite that bad is a smear.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
JI7
(89,252 posts)be said to be less bad versions of Harvey Weinstein ?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
katmondoo
(6,457 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Mme. Defarge
(8,034 posts)And damage the credibility of Me Too while youre at it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
katmondoo
(6,457 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Indykatie
(3,697 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)women such as herself. And I say as a sexual assault survivor...fuck off...Tarana-you don't speak for me.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
True Blue American
(17,986 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)to ignore.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Martin Eden
(12,870 posts)Really -- that's what Joe Biden was doing?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden