Bernie Sanders and Some of His Supporters Want a Revolution

[MineralMan]

in the United States. That word comes up all the time in the campaign's rhetoric.

Here's the thing: Revolutions Suck! At least real revolutions do. For example:

There were an estimated 7,000,000–12,000,000 casualties during the war, mostly civilians. Many pro-independence movements emerged after the break-up of the Russian Empire and fought in the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War

Revolutions are not peaceful changes of systems of government. Even our own American Revolutions had a death toll that reflects our small population at the time:

The total loss of life throughout the conflict is largely unknown. As was typical in wars of the era, diseases such as smallpox claimed more lives than battle. Between 1775 and 1782, a smallpox epidemic broke out throughout North America, killing 40 people in Boston alone. Historian Joseph Ellis suggests that Washington's decision to have his troops inoculated against the disease was one of his most important decisions.[448]

Between 25,000 and 70,000 American Patriots died during active military service.[33] Of these, approximately 6,800 were killed in battle, while at least 17,000 died from disease. The majority of the latter died while prisoners of war of the British, mostly in the prison ships in New York Harbor.[34] If the upper limit of 70,000 is accepted as the total net loss for the Patriots, it would make the conflict proportionally deadlier than the American Civil War.[12] Uncertainty arises from the difficulties in accurately calculating the number of those who succumbed to disease, as it is estimated at least 10,000 died in 1776 alone.[12] The number of Patriots seriously wounded or disabled by the war has been estimated from 8,500 to 25,000.[449]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War#Casualties_and_losses

We don't want an actual Revolution here. Revolutions Suck!

[LakeArenal]

1. So tired of revolt. Bernie's revolting

Trump says he’s revolutionary.

I’m tired of all the wars. Trump’s against Democracy, Sanders against our party.

It’s revolting and many of us are tired of the rhetoric as well as the attempts to destroy.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. Don't worry, this one will be different!

The People will suddenly become enlightened and will turn against the revanchist capitalist traitors to the proletariat at the ballot box, and thus will usher in an era of peace, equality, freedom, rainbows and unicorns. With sprinkles.

[MineralMan]

3. Oh, OK. My mistake.

[dalton99a]

6. The Sanders Administration will be the most PERFECT Administration EVER

Americans will receive the BEST news and information EVER. Personally approved by Vice President Nina Turner and Minister of Truth David Sirota.

[empedocles]

32. Oooh, Minister of Truth Sirota

[NYMinute]

4. The only successful revolution in history is the American revolution

which is a misnomer because it was actually a war for independence and not an actual revolution where a populace throws out its own government.

Every revolution since then has been a failure in changing people's lives.

French revolution got rid of the Bourbons but ended up with Napoleon.
Russian revolution got rid of the Tzars but ended up with Lenin and then Stalin.
Cuban revolution got rid of Bautista but ended up with Fidel Castro.
Iranian revolution got rid of the Shah but ended up with Ayatollahs.

People's lives didn't change - in fact, they got worse.

[PatSeg]

19. Well, they got change

but not the change they hoped for.

Wanting change is normal and healthy, but you don't burn down the house, you remodel and upgrade.

[NYMinute]

24. +++++

Sanders' plans are similar ... "We have leaking faucets, creaking floorboards and stained carpet. So let's bulldoze the whole house and build it from scratch."

[PatSeg]

34. Yes

That is the sort of analogy I was visualizing. Sometimes changes are small, like painting a room, and sometimes it is more drastic, like taking out a wall or installing a new bathroom, but when you already have a solid foundation and structure, you don't just destroy it all for the sake of change.

[Dopers_Greed]

5. They're using it in a metaphorical way

I don't think any of his supporters actually want violence.

The right-wing misrepresents progressive views enough, let's not do it ourselves as well.

[MineralMan]

7. Perhaps. Words have meanings, though.

Indeed they do.

[Dopers_Greed]

8. So then when Biden called that girl "dog-faced"

He wasn't actually jokingly quoting a movie?

Words have meanings.

[MineralMan]

9. The use of the word "revolution" is not a joke.

Nope. Poor example.

[Mme. Defarge]

14. Things have a way of getting out of control.

Groups are comprised of individuals with their own agendas. Groups develop factions, as we know.

[PatSeg]

20. Bernie's supporters probably don't want violence,

but their limited knowledge of history is affecting their priorities. Lasting change takes time, work, persistence, and patience. There will be disappointments and failures, but if people persevere, they will see change. However, it will not happen overnight with the waving of a magic wand or the election of a messiah candidate.

[empedocles]

33. ''don't think any of his supporters want violence' - 'any'?

[KayF]

10. posting a link about the Russian Civil War is absurd

the term "Reagan Revolution" is commonplace, no one links it to the Russian Revolution or the French Revolution. That would be just as dumb.

[Butterflylady]

11. Been around a long time

Never heard that before!

[PatSeg]

21. I don't remember that either

[lastlib]

12. Well, ya know, we all want to change the world....

"But if you want money for people with minds that hate,
All I can tell you is, Buster, you'll have to wait."

[PatSeg]

22. That was playing in my head as well

Very timely right now.

[aikoaiko]

13. Revolutions can happen through the established political process.

[MineralMan]

15. No, they cannot. That kind of change is built into the process.

Revolution has a specific meaning, and it is not that.

[PatSeg]

23. Revolution:

"A forcible overthrow of a government or social order, in favor of a new system."

We can fix and/or change the government or social order, without overthrowing the existing one. That is progress, not revolution.

[gulliver]

16. The Beatles take on revolution still applies

[MineralMan]

17. I agree.

[Kashkakat v.2.0]

18. Well heres another thing - another 4 yrs of republican rule and we WILL need an armed revolution

to undo it.

Many writers/ observers (esp outside US) have noted that what looks like chaos and ineptitude in the current regime are actually trial runs for facism

That being the case we alll need to start finding common ground and FAST !

FYI- revolution is one of those words with several different meanings. It does not necessarily mean violence, so why latch on to the worst possible definition? Making a straw man argument is not a good way to build a coalition. I would say, and have said, the same things to Sanders supporters who have their own set of straw man arguments they use against Biden.

[grantcart]

25. And they need your money to do it!!

[MineralMan]

27. Yeah, well, I'm not investing in that, I think.

[Under The Radar]

26. He has been calling for it for 5 years now

And it may happen, but he will not be the legitimate leader by sowing division in the Democratic Party

[beachbumbob]

28. heard the same in 1972, and look what we got

enough is enough

[MineralMan]

29. Well, if Sanders doesn't succeed in 2020, I suspect

we won't hear from him in 2024.

[beachbumbob]

30. we should be hearing from him now, the narcissistic guy he is can't stop himself

[MineralMan]

31. Well, he has his ideas and positions, and has held them

for a very long time. They just aren't compatible with the majority of the Democratic Party. So, he hits his ceiling at about 30% on a national basis. When there were lots of candidates, that was enough to keep him in the lead. Now that there are just two still standing, the majority of the party has a binary choice.

Unfortunately for Bernie, 30% won't cut it in a binary race. The majority will speak with its votes. It always does. That's how we got Obama and how Hillary Clinton beat Bernie by 4 million votes in that primary race.

Bernie and his supporters just can't accept that, unfortunately.

[Gothmog]

35. From day 1, Bernie built a campaign to appeal to 30%.

Link to tweet

So if, from day one, they didn’t think they needed more than 30%, why would they actually run a campaign and build a culture designed to win more than his 30% ceiling? As that article notes, even way back in early 2019, Sanders was picking fights and creating enemies out of potential allies.

We saw that in Sanders’ refusal to broaden his message to bring in more people. When I said exactly that on Meet the Press, that “the problem with Bernie Sanders is that he has the exact same message he had four years ago” when he lost to Hillary Clinton 60-40, the response from the Sanders campaign was, well, this:

Link to tweet

If your message wasn’t a majority message four years ago, and you want to win, wouldn’t you tweak it? They didn’t. Proudly and explicitly did not tweak it. They had zero intention of growing new support by broadening and expanding their message. (Sanders famously refused to even inject more biography into his stump speech to humanize him more.)

Sanders and his campaign saw that their ceiling was 30%, and they built an entire strategy around winning with 30%. That means that instead of seeing the other 70% of voters as allies, they saw them as THE ENEMY. Even when there was ideological alignment.