The logic of Bernie Sanders's continuing war against Clintonworld

[Shrek]

https://www.vox.com/2019/4/19/18311253/bernie-sanders-clinton-center-american-progress-tanden

That there’s animosity between Clinton’s orbit and Sanders’s is old news. But these latest punches show how the dynamics in the party have shifted. CAP, Brock, and the Clinton world have held power over the establishment for a generation; they’ve filled key staffing roles, crafted agendas, and chosen leaders. Sanders has largely been on the outside. Now he’s the Democratic frontrunner for president in a primary that has largely adopted his ideas.

“This is the first race since 1992 that there has not been a Clinton, a Clinton message, or a Clinton presence,” said Anita Dunn, a Democratic strategist with SKDKnickerbocker who served in the Obama White House. “That is a sea change.”

Sanders isn’t fighting with the Democratic Party anymore. Instead, in his bid to lead it, he’s defining his foil: what he sees as a corporatist wing that’s held an outsize grip on the policies and people who run the show in Washington.

[WeekiWater]

1. He is going scorched earth.

There is no deeper logic. His press secretary has made that abundantly clear. It’s a tactic that can work in a twenty person field. It’s his only option and it’s clear he knows it.

[MH1]

59. Well, it's not his ONLY option.

He COULD be a decent person and try to help defeat Trump. But he seems to care more about getting back at the "Dem establishment".

[Gothmog]

115. Bernie is hoping for a brokered convention.

Link to tweet

[MaryMagdaline]

2. Without Clinton as a foil, his rage falls a little flat

He needs to build his own coalition now with policymakers. The Clintons did this for years before Bill ran for President. They had a readymade cabinet of talent by the time he won.

[Blue_Tires]

37. +1

And the next person spewing that bullshit myth that St. Bern is singularly responsible for the party's present platform needs to be slapped with a dead trout

[NurseJackie]

43. Yes, please. May I?

I volunteer!

[Thekaspervote]

91. Yeah..like that!

[spooky3]

66. My biggest difficulty with Sanders

Is that he has very few accomplishments in his long career. I want a candidate who gets good things done alone or in building a coalition or team to accomplish good things. I do not care about lofty rhetoric or being inspired.

[susanna]

104. This is an excellent point.

The Clintons, like them or not, made allies easily - they were team players in many ways. Because of that, they had the best of talent to fill Bill's cabinet when the time came.

From all that's said about Bernie, he is not that sort of person. He seems very lone-wolfish. I honestly feel like it would be hard for him to form a functional government.

It is easily the biggest downside of Bernie for me, and let's be honest - it's not just big, it's huge.

[MaryMagdaline]

110. I've worried about this. I like his ideas but would love to see allies

Also would love to see a cohesive foreign policy

[comradebillyboy]

111. He doesn't have any allies of that stature and he has no foreign policy at all.

Consider how few of his Senate colleagues support his candidacy. He's better at making enemies than making friends.

[susanna]

113. Again, the 'lone wolf' concept I mentioned.

It often works in literature.

It often works in pop culture.

I do NOT think it works in politics.

Politics is a cohort of allies working together to bring about lasting change.

Which is why his (only occasional) acceptance of the Democratic Party is so troublesome. It seems, to me, that he is only a part of the cohort when he calls the shots, or they agree with him. This is not a slam on him personally; I do believe he truly thinks he is right.

It is simply my own personal observation after watching politics some 40+ years, and all of those who inhabit the political realm.

He is different. It plays with some, but will not play with others.

[susanna]

112. This is quite honestly my hesitation about him.

He seems to have made a career of being an outsider.

That is not at all how (dirty word here) politics works.

He could get in, and may, through the adoration of his supporters. But they'll find a lonely road making his ideas into reality when he has no allied forces to assist him.

[Demsrule86]

3. Trump does this too...such a waste of time.

[question everything]

35. One more example of the similarity between them

starting with attracting the same crowd in 2016. The "forgotten" people "shunned by the elite."

[Demsrule86]

55. I can't argue.

[nolabear]

87. Neither can I. Jesus, it's as though she has some kind of magic.

[Thekaspervote]

92. Agree completely!

[zentrum]

4. His letter to CAP

...etc., as I understood was a defense of Warren and several others as well. It wasn't all about him. He made some good points that deserve consideration. Hardly scorched earth. More like a necessary evolution.

[seaglass]

15. The article about Warren was written by a Native American woman who was not a TP employee.

So he either missed the mark or meant to dismiss the opinion of a NA woman.

[qazplm135]

5. Clinton is gone

she's a political corpse.

This is an attempt to raise her from the dead to rail against her by claiming someone she is the puppeteer behind the entire Democratic Party.

Your guy is a fucking frontrunner Bernie fans. The "we are the rebels" thing is kind of done.

[Cha]

41. How charming to refer to Hillary

that way.

She's Not running for anymore offices.. She's a stateswoman now.

The rest of your post I agree with.. BS' strategy of divisiveness is right on track.

[qazplm135]

44. it's reality

sorry if not charming enough for you. Politically, she's done, dead, finished, kaput.

Thus, bringing her up again in this way is gratuitous and designed to stoke up hatred of her and transfer it to others.

[Cha]

48. "Thus, bringing her up again in this way is gratuitous and designed to stoke up hatred of her and

and transfer it to others."

Exactly.. and it didn't have to be "charming".

[LakeArenal]

51. Love "reality".

How come every time someone speculates about reality, it’s some debbiedowner speculation.

Why is it never;
The reality is we have a great group of candidates and the future looks bright.

[spooky3]

67. Well said. Nt

[qazplm135]

70. how is it

"debbie downer speculation" to say that Hillary Clinton is never ever ever ever ever running for political office again and that she has no influence left over any party apparatus and thus trying to turn her into some sort of evil political octopus with tentacles controlling everything is ridiculous?

[qazplm135]

69. yes exactly

that's my point.

That you got offended by referring to a candidate that is politically dead as such notwithstanding.

[LakeArenal]

71. Do Not characterize me as offended.

Save your labels on yourself

[qazplm135]

72. lol

That wasn't even a reply to you.

[LakeArenal]

73. Then don't post it to my comments.

[qazplm135]

74. the heck is your problem?

It wasn't posted to YOUR comment.

It was a DIRECT response to someone who responded to me.

[LakeArenal]

75. Ummm No. it came to me by yellow "My Post"

Are you aware of how it works. Yellow means I have a post to a comment I made.
I click on the yellow My Posts icon

Sure enough my previous post has a number by it. You click on that post and sure enough I have a comment from...whom?

Why it’s you. All self righteous about your own posts.

[qazplm135]

77. go to the post again

look at the little number in the top right
see what it says
get back to me.

[LakeArenal]

78. It says again you posted me.

I hit reply.

[qazplm135]

80. no it doesn't

In the discussion thread: The logic of Bernie Sanders's continuing war against Clintonworld [View all]

Response to Cha (Reply #48)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 02:17 PM

qazplm135 (1,684 posts)
69. yes exactly


that's my point.

That you got offended by referring to a candidate that is politically dead as such notwithstanding.

[qazplm135]

79. you have a response from me

except it's not the one you responded to.
So yes you got a yellow my post response from me.
It was post 70 in response to post 51,

NOT post 69 in response to post 48.

Jesus, learn how this board works.

[LakeArenal]

81. I know where found your post. On my comment.

I don’t need to go to the post because it was on my posts.

Go bug someone else. I know where I got the comment from you.

Good day. If you didn’t post me then why do you even care.
I care because it came to me on my yellow post icon.
If you didn’t post me then continue with whomever you characterize as offended.

[qazplm135]

82. lame

You can't just say "I was wrong."

You can't just say, oh that was a response to CHA in reply 48 instead of to me.
I messed up and clicked on the wrong one instead of the actual reply to me you made that I've still not responded to.
My bad.

[LakeArenal]

83. I'll tell you what... I'll put you on ignore

You put me on ignore and that will solve it
Consider it done on my part.

[qazplm135]

84. still more lame

ignore is a weak tool for the weak minded but feel free.

[Celerity]

108. In the interest of us all being civil, the poster was talking about this post

that was a reply to this post

[Cha]

86. Yeah, I just told

him I wasn't "offended", either.

What's up with that? Because we have a different view.. we're suppose to be "offended"?

[LakeArenal]

93. I didn't want to speak for you, but I almost said Cha be offended? Ha...

But … Cha be offended... HA...

[Cha]

95. lol!

You got me.

I don't do "offended".. kinda weird.. trying to "label" .. and for WHAT?

[Cha]

85. Guess what? I'm not "offended".. I

have a different view.

[qazplm135]

89. lol

oh no, I used the horrible word offended!!

[lapucelle]

58. HRC and Howard Dean are still engaged in politics through Onward Together.

https://www.onwardtogether.org/

HRC has been asked to record robocalls for candidates, including Stacey Abrams, so she's hardly a corpse.

I think that was a horrible thing to say.

[Cha]

65. Let's build a fairer, more inclusive America together!

Mahalo for that link, lapucelle!

https://www.onwardtogether.org/

Yes, it wasn't accurate or cool. I can't really think of any Democratic Political "corpses" right now.

Certainly BS & this staffer doesn't seem to think so.. with his bringing up "his opponent".. and this..

Bernie Sanders Organizer Screams Expletives at Rally: 'F*ck Hillary! F*ck Hillary!'

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=69422

Bernie invoking Hillary

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128717213

[Sparkly]

97. omg!

[qazplm135]

68. oh ffs

I;m sure all sorts of former politically dead politicians record robocalls.

Doesn't make them any less politically dead.

[Demsrule86]

56. He is not a front runner,

[redstatebluegirl]

6. He is desperate and will do ANYTHING to win.

A person like that is not a candidate I would or could support unless forced to if he is the nominee.

[JudyM]

33. LOL.

He has held the same positions consistently for decades! It’s just that the times have now changed enough for people to see the vice grip that corporateers and oligarchal influences have on their health and well-being. And the dialogue he brought visibly into the public arena picked up well-deserved traction.

We should all be “desperate” to kick the bums out and start saving the world, because yes, it has come to that!

[Go Vols]

34. yep

[Cha]

42. Exactly, redstatebluegirl.. how they run

their campaign is how they would be in office.

I want a leader who is unifying.. not divisive.

[leftofcool]

7. I didn't think Hillary was running

[Tom Rinaldo]

8. The "war", for those who want to frame it as such, is two ways at the least

Hillary made disparaging comments about Bernie after the election. Some think fairly, others not, but she made them. Clinton "World" folks (ex-staffers and the like) made disparaging comments not long ago, about Sanders using a private plane to campaign for Clinton during the election. Think Progress, which has Clinton roots, made a pointedly negative online ad about Sanders very recently. This type of infighting is still ongoing. Sadly all the way around.

[comradebillyboy]

10. Maybe Bernie ought to give up his grudge against Hillary.

She's gone. It only further alienates a big hunk of the party. It's one of the reasons so many of us find Sanders to be unacceptable. His inability to forgive a slight is very Trump like. Bernie likes to dish it out but he sure can't take any kind of criticism without popping his cork.

[artislife]

16. Maybe Hillary can help this grudge, by recipicating

and campaigning for him!


LOL

Okay, that just made me laugh and I know that there is absolutely no universe or ring of Hell that this would ever take place.


But don't think this is one sided or that there are mouth frothers following just one candidate.

[David__77]

20. If he's the nominee, I think she would campaign for him.

And I think that would be great.

[BannonsLiver]

21. Zero chance that would ever happen

Why would she subject herself to being jeered by a crowd full of people who have been highly critical of her ideas and policies?

[David__77]

22. OK - we disagree.

I think she would campaign for the Democratic nominee, whoever that might be.

[BannonsLiver]

23. I do too

But not for Bernie. Too much bad blood and history there.

[Thekaspervote]

96. That's for sure!!

[namahage]

107. Because, quite simply, she has more class than that.

She was willing to do so for Obama in 2008, even as his supporters had their differences with her (and I say this as an Obama 2008 and Clinton 2016 supporter, as I assume you are as well).

And, while the degree and effectiveness might be questioned, there is no question that Sanders did advocate for Hillary during the general. It would be hypocrisy for Clinton not to do the same should the situation be reversed in 2020 (and would, indeed, provide yet more ammunition to the 2016 BoB coalition).

Not that this might matter in any case. We might see a specific request from the Bernie camp NOT to seek Clinton's endorsement and support, much like how Beto didn't seek Obama's support in his Senate bid.

[Power 2 the People]

17. +1

[SFnomad]

9. Some of the people on BS's payroll are still fighting Secretary Clinton and her supporters ....

And they're doing it with already disproven lies:

Link to tweet

[Demsrule86]

11. They should leave her alone. This sort of behavior is why I can't support Sanders in a primary

But only a general. I find it despicable. But when he hired Nina Turner that was it for me in regards to primaries. None of my kids will vote for him in a primary either.

[Amimnoch]

40. And others will never support period.

It would not surprise me if that fake news 25% is a premonition of how many Democrats his words and actions as well as those of his surrogates have completely soured on him. Even to the point of refusing to support him in the GE period.

Hell, in my social circles, for the first time I’m hearing some saying they would rather see Cheetolini remain in the oval office rather than play a part in rewarding him. These are ones who have never failed to vote straight ticket Democratic Party their entire lives.

[Demsrule86]

50. I hope not. No one is worse than Trump.

[Demsrule86]

13. Not true. What people forget is operation chaos where Republicans voted in our primaries

to prolong the primariesl.

[SFnomad]

14. There is that as well ... but the 25% figure comes from a poll take right after Clinton conceeded

That isn't the figure from polls taken during the General Election itself.

What Briahna is pushing is known to not be true.

[Demsrule86]

27. Operation chaos was not in the general...can't discuss it in great detail.

[Cha]

45. Oh Wow.. is brie getting Major Pushback

on that Tweet.. Thanks for that, SFnomad

[BlueFlorida]

12. Bernie's goal is clear and obvious here nt

[BannonsLiver]

18. +1

[aikoaiko]

19. Bernie is not warring against Clintons. Another minor media trying to stir up shit for the clicks.

This is a bullshit VOX piece.

He's not after the Clintons. He's challenging the way many Democrats do business which would include the Clintons depending on the issue.

[comradebillyboy]

24. So are you saying that BriBri's tweet isn't real?

Bernie's top staffers refused to support the Democratic nominee in 2016. It's an issue.

[aikoaiko]

25. The past is the past unless you choose to cling to it. I understand that some people will cling.

The VOX piece is supposed to be about now -- not 2016 battles, tweets, votes, or positions.

[lapucelle]

31. ...

Link to tweet

[Demsrule86]

28. What about the fuck Hillary supporter at a recent rally?

[aikoaiko]

29. So I thought we were talking about Bernie and his campaign and not random people.

[TwilightZone]

64. He wasn't a random person.

He is a Sanders organizer. He may not be directly affiliated with the campaign (I've seen no official confirmation either way), but he's not exactly some random dude who just walked in off the street.

[JudyM]

36. Exactly right.

But some continue grasping at any possible shred of disparagement. Regardless of his staffers, who have their own personal reasons and interests in voting, Bernie’s message and the vision he is communicating is clear, he is not looking backward. Just the opposite. He has been seeing the importance of repairing our democracy for decades as it has hurtled to the point we have now, which grows increasingly precarious by the day.

[Mike Nelson]

26. Running aganist Clinton...

… is not a winning strategy!

[Cha]

46. He can't get over it.

[Decoy of Fenris]

52. Worked for Trump. n/t

[Mike Nelson]

54. Also...

… the Russians worked for Trump.
… the Electoral College worked for Trump.
… the media worked for Trump.

… the Voters went for Hillary!

[Decoy of Fenris]

57. And she lost. That's a simple truth. We're not a Democracy, "The Voters" don't matter.

Running against her worked for the Russians. It worked for EC purposes. It worked for the media.

Yes, the voters went for Clinton, but in a football game, you don't judge a win by which team is popular or time of possession, you tally the score. In the end, she lost, and those that ran "against Clinton" won.

Is that the way it should be? No. Should the EC have decided the election? Nope. Should Russia have gotten involved? Of course not. But that's what happened, and it worked. So far, running against Clinton has an 80% win rate.

[TheFarseer]

30. Because people won't let it go

As in “if it wasn’t for Bernie, Hillary would be president”. Because we all know any candidate facing a primary challenge will definitely lose.

[lark]

32. So Bernie's copying drumpfs playbook?

Is he going to start "lock her up" chants too? This is just purely disgusting.

What a great recommendation for someone trying to get the nomination of a party he hates, SMH.

[Blue_Tires]

38. Tulsi Gabbard? You're still going with the hipster irony?

[MH1]

60. Didn't Gabbard just say that the Mueller report "exonerated Trump"? (or words to that effect)

I'm not sure why any Dem would support that nonsense.

[ehrnst]

39. Those who don't learn from history....

[Renew Deal]

47. 2004?

Kerry wasn’t exactly a Clintonite

[Honeycombe8]

49. Healthcare for all is not his idea. Just sayin'. But a neat trick for him to try to co-opt it. nt

[tymorial]

53. If he wants to lead the party then he should join the party. Nt

[peggysue2]

62. What a novel idea!!!

Yes, join the party, and then stay in the party as opposed to riding the party's coat tails for election purposes.

Agree 100x.

[BlueFlorida]

61. His time has come and gone

People are far more angry at Trump and the republicans and not at corporations and rich people so much. Reviving Clintons and calling them corporatist or establishment won't work this time.

Sanders will be seen for who he is ... an angry man with a big ego and ambition who swoons devotees with slogans and platitudes with not much of a detailed policy or thought behind what is proposed.

MfA and tariffs are already unpopular. His campaign now consists entirely of slogans and forced photo ops with some gullible people used as props.

[betsuni]

63. "The financial establishment of this country is gathering at 'canape-filled fund-raisers,' plotting

campaigns to stop us."

"Canape" sounds so swanky and elitist, so French -- like Dijon mustard and arugula. Fragrant smoked fishes and meats, caviars and soft cheeses, fancy whorls and swirls of flavored butters and pates and mayonnaises, sometimes on Pumpernickel (the devil's bread!). Capers! Stuffed olives! I'm sure they are sipping nice dry Chardonnays and various aperitifs while this canape-filled plotting is going on. Probably use napkins instead of their shirt sleeves like a normal person. ELITISTS.

[Cha]

100. How does BS know?

[betsuni]

105. In the movies there's always a waiter or someone at the hotel to spy on the enemy.

Maybe that's it.

[Cha]

106. It sounds very dramatic..

with a thick plot featuring "establishment" canapés.

[betsuni]

109. Catering is totally elitist establishment status quo.

After the Revolution there will NO CANAPES FOR YOU.

One of my favorite food writers, Laurie Colwin, reminisces:

"... in 1968, Students for a Democratic Society called a strike and occupied a number of buildings. I was a part-time student ... and when the strike was called I found myself ... in the kitchen of an occupied building trying to figure out how to feed a large number of ravenous post adolescents. ... Someone put a piece of adhesive on the sleeve of my sweatshirt that read: KITCHEN/COLWIN. This, I feel, marked me for life. As I began to make what felt like hundreds of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, my comrades streamed in -- Columbia College boys younger than I, and starving.
'Hey! Can I have something to eat?'
'No. We have to save food for mealtimes.'
'Hey, I'm starving. Puh-lease?'
'Okay. You can have tuna fish or peanut butter and jelly.'
'Tuna fish! Peanut butter and jelly! We had peanut butter and jelly for breakfast and I'm allergic to tuna fish.' I learned to say: 'Forget it! You're supposed to be eating paving stones like your comrades in Paris.' This sent them slinking away."

[Paladin]

76. "Don't keep fighting the last Democratic presidential primary."

That's a forum rule. I know, because one of my posts was removed for breaking it, earlier this week.

Just thought I'd mention it. Thanks for your attention.

[comradebillyboy]

88. The OP is about Bernie's activities right now in 2019. He is attacking people

and groups he associates with the Clintons. He seriously hates Hillary and just can't get over it.

[Paladin]

90. "just can't get over it" being the operative phrase.

Don't get me wrong---I am in no way, shape or form a Bernie fan.

[comradebillyboy]

99. You are right to criticize the focus on 2016. Unfortunately the Sanders

campaign won't or can't move on. All of us would be better off if the wounds of 2016 were allowed to heal.

[Cha]

101. I love that pic.. Mahalo, comradebillyboy..

[comradebillyboy]

102. Thanks Cha...

[robbedvoter]

94. He is going for his raging Bros. Wants to win this Mondale style

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

98. You can not be the nominee with 30% of the vote in the primaries

From the Political Wire https://politicalwire.com/2019/04/18/how-bernie-sanders-thinks-hell-win-nomination/

The Atlantic: “He’s counting on winning Iowa and New Hampshire, where he was already surprisingly strong in 2016, and hoping that Cory Booker and Kamala Harris will split the black electorate in South Carolina and give him a path to slip through there, too. And then, Sanders aides believe, he’ll easily win enough delegates to put him into contention at the convention. They say they don’t need him to get more than 30 percent to make that happen.”

Even Mondale got more support than sanders

Link to tweet

[fleabiscuit]

103. Well this one kind of lost its charm. nt

[Gothmog]

114. Nate Silver- Sanders Can Win, But He Isn't Polling Like A Favorite

Nate thinks that it is possible for sander to win the nomination but this is not likely. sanders is not going to be the nominee of the party. sanders thinks that getting 30% of the primary vote is sufficient which means taking the fight to the contested convention. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bernie-sanders-can-win-but-he-isnt-polling-like-a-favorite/

Historically, though, candidates who are polling at only about 20 percent nationally despite the near-universal name recognition that Sanders enjoys don’t have a great track record. From our research on the history of past primary polls, I found 15 candidates from past nomination processes who, like Sanders, (i) polled at an average of between 15 percent and 25 percent4 in national polls in the first six months of the year before the Iowa caucuses5 and (ii) who had high or very high name recognition.6.....

Achieving a delegate majority could be hard for Sanders
You could also argue that the three winning candidates from the list — Barack Obama and John McCain in 2008 and Mitt Romney in 2012 — aren’t good comparisons for Sanders, especially from a “The Party Decides” standpoint where preferences among party insiders and activists are leading indicators of voter preferences. Romney, for instance, had the backing of the GOP party establishment as a potential consensus choice, whereas Sanders largely lacks it from Democrats. Obama was a rising star, rather than someone left over from a previous cycle, and gained a lot of momentum among party elites as the 2008 cycle wore on, even if they also liked Clinton. McCain, who ran against the party establishment in 2000 but was someone the party could live with in 2008, is in some ways the most favorable comparison for Sanders.

In many respects, however, Sanders is more similar to Jesse Jackson in 1984 and 1988, George Wallace in 1972 and 1976 or Ron Paul in 2012, candidates who represented important constituencies within their respective parties but who didn’t have an obvious way to unite the rest of the party behind them or to win a delegate majority.

At times, Sanders’s strategists actually seem to be leaning into the strategy of being a factional candidate. The Sanders campaign may have all kinds of reasons to feel aggrieved by how the party establishment has treated it, especially when it reads articles like the one in The New York Times that suggest the establishment is out to get it again! Nonetheless, the campaign hasn’t sought to mend fences when conflicts have arisen this year. Instead, Sanders aides told The Atlantic’s Edward-Isaac Dovere that they think they can win the nomination with as little as a 30 percent plurality of delegates. That’s a risky strategy since it would necessarily entail a contested convention, where party insiders would play an outsized role. Nor would Sanders, a 77-year-old white man, reflect the various constituencies of the Democratic Party (and the demographics of the delegates themselves) as well as someone like Harris might.

sanders will not be the nominee if sanders only gets 30% of the primary vote. There are too many real democrats who have long memories and who will not forgive or forget. If this gets to a floor fight, the delegates for the other candidates will not support sanders and the super delegates will get to break any deadlocks after the first ballot.