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WarGamer

(12,444 posts)
Sat Nov 18, 2023, 03:10 PM Nov 2023

Why the US didn't kill 12,000 civilians in 6 weeks of combat in Iraq [View all]

https://www.justsecurity.org/74619/avoiding-collateral-damage-on-the-battlefield/

I'm far from an apologist for US military adventurism but what we're seeing in Gaza is simply medieval.

Importantly, it is the expected collateral damage and the anticipated military advantage that drive proportionality analysis. Thus, proportionality determinations are made ex ante, not post factum. The determinative factors are what the attacker knew, or should have known, regarding collateral damage and what military advantage the attacker reasonably expected to achieve; proportionality is not assessed based on the collateral damage or military advantage that eventuated, except as they bear on the reasonableness of the attacker’s analysis at the time the attack was planned, approved or executed. In practice, this is a highly subjective determination because it compares dissimilar values – collateral damage and military advantage – that are themselves hard to measure. As a result, while still important, the more protective rule on the battlefield is that requiring precautions.

Compliance with these rules by those conducting attacks is operationalized through guidance imposed by higher echelons of command, processes designed to assess the likelihood of collateral damage and identify ways to avoid causing it, and technologies that offer the attacker precision, greater clarity in the battlespace, and redundant capabilities. We turn to these next.

U.S. and coalition forces use rules of engagement (ROE) to restrict the application of force during armed conflict, in part to limit civilian casualties to the extent feasible (Operational Law Handbook, ch. 5). ROE are more restrictive than LOAC, for they also incorporate policy and operational constraints and are usually tailored to the specific battlefield environment in which they apply. The rules can restrict such matters as acceptable targets, the geographic range of operations, time of operations, and the use of particular munitions. ROE also sometimes reinforce LOAC provisions that might be of particular significance in certain combat environments, such as the prohibitions on the destruction of religious and cultural property when being applied in situations of internecine conflict. In many circumstances, they tighten them, as in the case of restricting operations against religious facilities being illegitimately used by the adversary to self-defense scenarios only.
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That is because a hell of a lot more were killed JohnSJ Nov 2023 #1
You "missed" the in 6 weeks part WarGamer Nov 2023 #2
BS. Shock and awe killed a hell of a lot of people JohnSJ Nov 2023 #3
lol... You didn't even read my post. WarGamer Nov 2023 #4
Comparing Israel to "medieval" sounds bad. yardwork Nov 2023 #11
When people emphasize the nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I always want to remind Martin68 Nov 2023 #42
GD Hamas is "Medieval". Cha Nov 2023 #46
Of course... a few thousand killed AND wounded. Nothing like GAZA. WarGamer Nov 2023 #6
Hamas decided to concentrate all its murderers TexasDem69 Nov 2023 #57
Gaza is a small heavily populated area Old Crank Nov 2023 #76
Well Mountainguy Nov 2023 #81
True, but Old Crank Nov 2023 #90
Comparisons of Israel to "medieval" sounds bad. yardwork Nov 2023 #5
I was just using the vernacular... of course there are more modern examples. WarGamer Nov 2023 #8
That happened in the World Wars, too. yardwork Nov 2023 #12
Carthage was unique because Rome literally "erased" an entire civilization and culture. WarGamer Nov 2023 #16
The suggestion that Israel is trying to "erase" Palestinians is antisemitic. yardwork Nov 2023 #18
nonsense... WarGamer Nov 2023 #20
It's the specific words and phrases that make something antisemitic. yardwork Nov 2023 #32
Rec TY Cha Nov 2023 #51
How it anti-semitic when there are multiple quotes in the last two months Big Blue Marble Nov 2023 #28
Netanyahu and his cabinet say stupid things all the time. yardwork Nov 2023 #33
I am married to a Jew. Big Blue Marble Nov 2023 #45
"The suggestion that Israel is trying to "erase" Palestinians is antisemitic." How can it be antisemitic if Martin68 Nov 2023 #44
I agree with the OP. Big Blue Marble Nov 2023 #25
Hmmmm.... some of that hasn't been proven to be true. yardwork Nov 2023 #35
How naive can you be or just in denial. Big Blue Marble Nov 2023 #43
It's performative melodrama at this point BannonsLiver Nov 2023 #67
Iraqi forces generally did not sarisataka Nov 2023 #7
But at this point... I don't see the IDF making even the most basic threat assessments and BDA... WarGamer Nov 2023 #9
You have me at a disadvantage sarisataka Nov 2023 #22
Maybe Israel will let the UN into GAZA to make an accurate reporting of the numbers... WarGamer Nov 2023 #24
Anyone watching this horror knows that the deaths are being undercounted. Big Blue Marble Nov 2023 #31
The UN needs to be allowed in, under a cease fire. WarGamer Nov 2023 #34
It's wise to be skeptical of combatants during wartime. yardwork Nov 2023 #36
We also don't know how true that 12,000 number is, most likely highly inflated. EX500rider Nov 2023 #56
There were 650k excess deaths in Iraq. TwilightZone Nov 2023 #10
you also missed the "in 6 weeks part" WarGamer Nov 2023 #13
I put it to you, WarGamer, that your 6-week debate point is meaningless. So what? As a gamer you appear Martin68 Nov 2023 #48
I can see that we're not going to understand each other. Have a great day! WarGamer Nov 2023 #59
Taking the easy way out? See you in the funny papers! Martin68 Nov 2023 #92
The war against Iraq was tragic and bad for US security. David__77 Nov 2023 #14
thanks, I wish more would read and understand the post. WarGamer Nov 2023 #17
12,000 civilians? EX500rider Nov 2023 #15
And let's not forget we are going off of numbers of dead supplied by Hamas ! GuppyGal Nov 2023 #23
Ex500, if we assume the proportion of Hamas fighters to the civilian population is one percent, then a Martin68 Nov 2023 #50
Why would it be proportionate when Hamas is the actual target of the airstrikes? EX500rider Nov 2023 #55
I fear your math and your knowledge of real world urban warfare are sadly lacking. You quoted the 12,000 Martin68 Nov 2023 #91
You have your opinion, I have mine EX500rider Nov 2023 #93
So inthewind21 Nov 2023 #94
Hard to ignore that weeks of continuos bombings into civilian housing... brush Nov 2023 #19
thanks for commenting. WarGamer Nov 2023 #21
It is a Catch-22 sarisataka Nov 2023 #29
And, there's bizarre speculation that Israel is faking the evidence. yardwork Nov 2023 #37
But the bombings are not eliminating Hamas so, as undesirable as it is, ground troops... brush Nov 2023 #40
No, we killed over 100,000 Iraqis. bif Nov 2023 #26
agreed... 100% WarGamer Nov 2023 #27
It's one hell of a poor weak ass excuse do to a whatabout The_Casual_Observer Nov 2023 #39
I'm not an apologist for ANY of the above wars of aggression. None. WarGamer Nov 2023 #41
Informative military assessment. Basic LA Nov 2023 #30
Noticed that bebe never mentioned the hostages The_Casual_Observer Nov 2023 #38
Let me know when there's criminal proceedings concerning Hamas and they're recent activities. paleotn Nov 2023 #49
Let's just forget about the collective punishment The_Casual_Observer Nov 2023 #60
Hamas's leadership doesn't live in Gaza. paleotn Nov 2023 #61
So then what's this shit all about? The_Casual_Observer Nov 2023 #62
They're responsible for heinous crimes of late, but many here don't seem to be in much of a twist about it paleotn Nov 2023 #71
I didn't give them a pass. I don't give the IDF a pass either. The_Casual_Observer Nov 2023 #72
There's not anywhere NEAR the level of freak out if Hamas or Hezbollah do something particularly egregious. paleotn Nov 2023 #75
What the IDF and bebe is doing starts with an G. The_Casual_Observer Nov 2023 #80
That's not apples to oranges paleotn Nov 2023 #47
Didn't we ? DemocraticPatriot Nov 2023 #52
The Iraq Body Count counts 6000 Iraqi civilian deaths in the "invasion phase" WarGamer Nov 2023 #63
So how did it get up to 1 million ? DemocraticPatriot Nov 2023 #69
Many more years of war... sectarian violence and civil war... add in terrorism. WarGamer Nov 2023 #70
I think we probably did nt doc03 Nov 2023 #53
A different comparison may fit, the US bombardment of Mosul in the war against ISIS. Eugene Nov 2023 #54
More uninformed anti-Israeli propaganda TexasDem69 Nov 2023 #58
Too bad we ended up killing like 500,000 Iraqi civilians, though Oneironaut Nov 2023 #64
absolutely... hopefully Israel doesn't challenge that statistic. WarGamer Nov 2023 #65
Is that an excuse for this? The_Casual_Observer Nov 2023 #74
Why is there an assumption that the dead are Tomconroy Nov 2023 #66
Because Hamas said so. nt LexVegas Nov 2023 #68
Why is there an assumption that they are terrorists? The_Casual_Observer Nov 2023 #73
Because Hamas is a terrorist group? EX500rider Nov 2023 #82
Your guess is as good as mine. The_Casual_Observer Nov 2023 #83
Or since Hamas is reporting the numbers probably less IMO EX500rider Nov 2023 #85
Actually the UN reports the number, so there is that The_Casual_Observer Nov 2023 #86
Using numbers supplied by Hamas EX500rider Nov 2023 #87
And suppose it's 3000 or? Does that make you feel better? The_Casual_Observer Nov 2023 #88
Would less dead children make me feel better? EX500rider Nov 2023 #89
Iraq has 257 people/sq mile. Gaza has 117,650 people/sq mile elias7 Nov 2023 #77
2 million Gazans divided by 140 square miles 14,285 per square mile n/t Army Brat Nov 2023 #79
Ummmmmmm inthewind21 Nov 2023 #95
+10000000000000000000000000 GuppyGal Nov 2023 #96
Salon now estimates 2.4 million deaths in Iraq since the 2003 invasion. Swede Nov 2023 #78
40% of the deaths in Palestine have been children. I think the Palestinian people have more than paid for Autumn Nov 2023 #84
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