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Bernardo de La Paz

(49,047 posts)
10. Math and all academic courses SHOULD be challenging
Sat Nov 25, 2023, 07:40 AM
Nov 2023

Children are naturally curious. Challenge them and you get them involved.

If you give unchallenging curriculum, children get bored and disengaged and start losing out.

Courses can't be "enlightening and helpful and consequential and integrated" unless they are challenging.

Your post has some meaningful perspectives but does not support your title. I do disagree that solving equations is a useless skill. You write better equations if you know how to solve them. You can program computers better if you know how to solve equations. You can use computers to solve equations better if you know how to solve them yourself.

Teaching kids how to punch numbers into a computer is not teaching them what it all means. Similarly it does not equip them to be able to double check the results. Further, it gives no education on how to generate equations in the first place. It is a bogus educational strategy.

Tools do not mean you can neglect fundamentals. Fundamentals are foundations and absolutely remain important. Your strategy would not work.

Your last paragraph is insightful, but is not an argument for abandoning learning how to solve equations. New Math, which I was given decades ago in Canada in the first wave of it, was very useful and did not abandon equations.

It makes no sense. Wouldn't you want it earlier so those with difficulties JI7 Nov 2023 #1
Their stupid theory is that if you held everyone back, then everyone would be even in 9th. pnwmom Nov 2023 #3
Math (and all other academic courses) shouldn't be "challenging" swong19104 Nov 2023 #5
Life is full of challenges, and school is one place where kids learn to take them on. Sports is another. pnwmom Nov 2023 #6
Bravo. Awesome and elaborate post. triron Nov 2023 #19
Thank you, triron. It touched a nerve. pnwmom Nov 2023 #22
You do realize that not everybody wants to be an engineer swong19104 Nov 2023 #63
You do realize that not every high school student knows what career they might eventually want, right? pnwmom Nov 2023 #82
Then they wouldn't take math classes MichMan Nov 2023 #85
Math and all academic courses SHOULD be challenging Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2023 #10
Could Not Disagree More ProfessorGAC Nov 2023 #14
I think you hit the nail on the head swong19104 Nov 2023 #60
A Bit Too Radical An Idea For Me ProfessorGAC Nov 2023 #64
Hey, I was just like you -- even more, when I was teaching swong19104 Nov 2023 #71
Reads Like ProfessorGAC Nov 2023 #72
Do you calibrate your tests? swong19104 Nov 2023 #74
Do you think drivers tests are of no value? pnwmom Nov 2023 #83
This is ridiculous. mathematic Nov 2023 #20
I think you misread what I was saying swong19104 Nov 2023 #59
1. Tests are imperfect, but they're not useless. We don't want lifeguards to guard a pool pnwmom Nov 2023 #87
Do you feel that way about sports and athletics? Should the kids with natural talent... Hekate Nov 2023 #25
First, I'm not suggesting anything about holding anyone back swong19104 Nov 2023 #52
Patty-cake Hekate Nov 2023 #55
I saw nothing in the OP about requiring students to take a progression of math courses until graduation. MichMan Nov 2023 #62
Let's use the sports analogy here swong19104 Nov 2023 #67
"What is the math analogy to cardio? To strengthening? To coordination? Then let's teach that instead." pnwmom Nov 2023 #75
Not challenging? So aim towards the lowest common denominator? tinrobot Nov 2023 #26
I take it that you don't know much about math, or academics or pedagogy swong19104 Nov 2023 #50
You sure make a lot of assumptions tinrobot Nov 2023 #66
Post removed Post removed Nov 2023 #68
"What topics should be most important, today? I can assure you that calculus isn't it." pnwmom Nov 2023 #70
I taught math at high school and college level swong19104 Nov 2023 #73
The leadership of U-Cal Berkeley College of Engineering strongly opposed the proposal pushed pnwmom Nov 2023 #86
Wow. Simple harmonic motion? Heat flow? Exponential decay? muriel_volestrangler Nov 2023 #105
The "old" math Mossfern Nov 2023 #27
The New Math teaches logical thinking and requires proofs for geometry and trigonometry. . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2023 #32
There has been more than one "new math" Mossfern Nov 2023 #35
Despite being somewhat math-centric, I don't know much about New New Math Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2023 #44
(mistakenly replied to myself) Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2023 #57
I have positive associations with the New Math, though I only had it in elementary school pnwmom Nov 2023 #37
That's new math. swong19104 Nov 2023 #48
You still have to do proofs in geometry and Trig. NT Happy Hoosier Nov 2023 #99
That was my favorite part! Mossfern Nov 2023 #110
As someone with two degrees in math, and 11 years experience as a math teacher - Ms. Toad Nov 2023 #76
Any data to back up your claim that all academic courses should pose no challenge to a student? ThreeNoSeep Nov 2023 #109
It's that "equity" word Sympthsical Nov 2023 #9
Equity does NOT mean dumbing down Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2023 #11
No, that is not how it is applied Sympthsical Nov 2023 #16
Just how is dropping 8th grade Algebra courses from the curriculum raising up those who are left behind? MichMan Nov 2023 #53
It's not. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2023 #54
The idea is that if they dropped Algebra from 8th grade, pnwmom Nov 2023 #88
But in both Texas and Wisconsin, algebra is freshman, eighth was honors class. 30 years apart LeftInTX Nov 2023 #29
Exactly.... that's how it worked for me. Happy Hoosier Nov 2023 #98
Similar expereince in the early 90's..... TheRealNorth Nov 2023 #107
Best engineering schools want calculus in high school lostnfound Nov 2023 #2
True, but they also want the non-calculus New Math concepts as foundations. . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2023 #15
I only had New Math in elementary school, but the parts that stuck with me pnwmom Nov 2023 #34
My recommendation swong19104 Nov 2023 #4
If everyone followed your advice, then out of state students would be needed to fill pnwmom Nov 2023 #7
Large numbers of foreign students would also be needed. We'd be training the best & brightest Hekate Nov 2023 #28
Right --- you don't want to handicap CA's own students by misleading them into thinking pnwmom Nov 2023 #33
Absolutely wrong swong19104 Nov 2023 #47
Engineering is a much larger field than computer engineering. Your experience pnwmom Nov 2023 #49
I have worked with many software engineers over the years. Happy Hoosier Nov 2023 #102
Completely backwards Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2023 #12
Tests are unnecessary swong19104 Nov 2023 #45
Careful. Binary thinking (yes/no all/nothing) is a dead end Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2023 #46
Despite what Jo Boaler and her reformer pals think, math tests aren't subjective. pnwmom Nov 2023 #56
Most adults would fail biology and chemistry tests as well NickB79 Nov 2023 #18
I would say that swong19104 Nov 2023 #42
Oh sweet Jesus NickB79 Nov 2023 #61
The Youtube mention reminds me about a career goal poll from a few years back... Lancero Nov 2023 #80
Are you kidding? Happy Hoosier Nov 2023 #100
Isn't it interesting how the well to do want to dumb down the "others"? Stargazer99 Nov 2023 #8
On a plate Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2023 #13
The social and economic realities are brilliantly laid out here... Hekate Nov 2023 #30
Choice is good. Igel Nov 2023 #17
Need to bring back core requirements -- with electives on the side Hekate Nov 2023 #31
I agree. Unfortunately, in San Francisco they removed the option of Algebra (and any more advanced class) pnwmom Nov 2023 #39
That is so depressing. nt redqueen Nov 2023 #97
Seriously, learning algebra should start in the third grade. hunter Nov 2023 #21
Don't remove opportunity Mountainguy Nov 2023 #23
I'll bet the private schools teach it. EllieBC Nov 2023 #24
Exactly. 30% of San Fran students are in private schools with the option of 8th grade Algebra. nt pnwmom Nov 2023 #40
Somewhere, Betsy DeVos is smiling.... JustABozoOnThisBus Nov 2023 #36
SF's math curriculum right now is really hurting people. BlueCheeseAgain Nov 2023 #38
I Had Algebra RobinA Nov 2023 #41
It was part of the college prep curriculum I took in high school Xavier Breath Nov 2023 #43
My husband, who is a math whiz Bettie Nov 2023 #106
Your husband may have something there. Xavier Breath Nov 2023 #108
It all depends on the kid whether they're ready then or not. pnwmom Nov 2023 #84
My oldest was in a pre-algebra class in 5th grade MissB Nov 2023 #51
For some reason, people who would never dream of holding kids back from reading at a high level pnwmom Nov 2023 #89
Ultimately, 8th grade algebra is not an appropriate issue to vote on Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2023 #58
"Let teachers teach" How, by not teaching Algebra? MichMan Nov 2023 #65
No. I never suggested "not teaching Algebra" Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2023 #69
While it isn't an issue that should be up to a vote, Ms. Toad Nov 2023 #77
We don't disagree. When I say Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2023 #78
After ten years with a math program so many are unhappy with, a vote seems like the only path now. nt pnwmom Nov 2023 #92
Yes. In this case it makes sense to have a vote. There are too many unhappy parents (and educators) pnwmom Nov 2023 #91
I'm not sure it is a good idea in 6th grade, unusual or not. Ms. Toad Nov 2023 #94
It wasn't my idea, it was the school's. And it did work out, since my math-loving child pnwmom Nov 2023 #95
My concern is that, rather than being a customized recommendation, it is being pushed as the norm Ms. Toad Nov 2023 #96
The problem with San Francisco's approach is that they've been trying to fit all kids into the same box. pnwmom Nov 2023 #112
My response was specific to the 6th grade Algebra. Ms. Toad Nov 2023 #113
In this case, it's better that they vote on it. The San Francisco educational system blew it. pnwmom Nov 2023 #90
The decision to withhold 8th grade Algebra was not a teachers' decision. Happy Hoosier Nov 2023 #104
The OP is a roadmap leading to mediocrity in US technology. tableturner Nov 2023 #79
I think the opposite is true. pnwmom Nov 2023 #93
Algebra helps students learn how to solve things differently kimbutgar Nov 2023 #81
Stupid. Whose brilliant idea is it to put our kids behind the rest of the world? JohnSJ Nov 2023 #101
Not coincidentally, San Francisco is the city with the highest percent of private school kids, pnwmom Nov 2023 #111
This is absurd. OLDMDDEM Nov 2023 #103
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