General Discussion

Jeff In Milwaukee

(13,992 posts)

142. Part of the issue...

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 03:32 PM

Feb 2013

Is that we're trying to apply the Magna Carta to a 21st century international security issue. As has been pointed out many times before, you can't have a "war on terrorism" because you can't have a war on a noun. But as the United States and other nations try to confront the threat posed by multi-national, non-governmental belligerant powers, our traditional notions of both warfare and legal rights have to be re-examinted to determine how best meet this new danger.

I'm not saying that we should throw out the 6th Amendment, but the fact is that a strict adherence to traditional constitutional law amounts to a "twelfth man" on the field on behalf of the terrorists. They are, I am certain, counting on our inability to deal with the threat based on existing law and using that to their advantage.

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I'm a loyal member of the Democratic Party and I don't have a problem with Drones [View all] politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 OP

remember what you said when they start spying on you. hobbit709 Feb 2013 #1

You are loyal to a word, Democrat liberalmike27 Feb 2013 #29

If an "American" is in another country.... George II Feb 2013 #90

Ronald Reagan called the African National Congress a 'terrorist organization'. Should coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #110

The African National Congress wasn't planning terrorist attacks against the United States George II Feb 2013 #166

Way to miss the point. The ANC weren't 'terrorists' at all. But that coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #171

Didn't mess the point at all - your comment was illogical in this discussion. George II Feb 2013 #176

Was not illogical in the slightest. Get this: when Obama orders a drone strike on coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #183

So, I assume you think targeting Al Qaeda is wrong?? kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #208

Targeting it with the military is using a bazooka to go after a flea (with coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #213

They're a terrorist because the government says so? Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2013 #129

Fine - get Iran, Somalia, Syria, etc. to extradite one of them to the US...think that will happen? George II Feb 2013 #167

That's a non sequitur and red herring. Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2013 #169

How? And how? George II Feb 2013 #175

Rights can't be forfeited that's why they are called rights. white_wolf Feb 2013 #189

One would think that if someone was in another country working to take down our government.......... George II Feb 2013 #196

One would be wrong. white_wolf Feb 2013 #197

Google "treason" George II Feb 2013 #200

Treason is determined by a trial. white_wolf Feb 2013 #202

Jimmy Lee Dykes was killed this week without a trial, or, as people here now like to say... George II Feb 2013 #204

Yes it was. white_wolf Feb 2013 #209

All I can say to that is WOW! I'm flabbergasted. George II Feb 2013 #211

I find it sad that you are shocked. white_wolf Feb 2013 #212

Police forces have been rescuing kidnappees for decades, maybe more than a century........ George II Feb 2013 #229

So where do you draw the line? How much freedom will you give up in order to feel safe? white_wolf Feb 2013 #230

Why don't you ask the parents of that kid that was held captive in the bunker for almost a week? George II Feb 2013 #238

Appeal to emotion is classic logical fallacy. white_wolf Feb 2013 #239

Appealing to sanity and reality isn't a fallacy. George II Feb 2013 #253

If we didn't care about killing innocent people we'd just kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #206

They already are, and the courts have upheld the Patriot Act which allows them to do so. I don't politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #31

Agreed, they already are, electronically for certain. Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #43

Welcome to DU Octafish Feb 2013 #2

I don't follow the Remember Paul Wellstone comment - is that just to el_bryanto Feb 2013 #5

See this post... SidDithers Feb 2013 #14

Ah - the problem with those sorts of stories is el_bryanto Feb 2013 #17

Tip of the Liberal Spear liberalmike27 Feb 2013 #32

No they can't be completely rejected el_bryanto Feb 2013 #36

At one point drone strikes were just a conspiracy. Arctic Dave Feb 2013 #58

Yes because proof is discovered el_bryanto Feb 2013 #59

Yes. We wouldn't want to spread conspiracy theories that hurt perceptions of government legitimacy. Octafish Feb 2013 #61

At least you now admit they're conspiracy theories...nt SidDithers Feb 2013 #63

I haven't admitted anything, siddithers. Octafish Feb 2013 #73

Everything is a conspiracy theory, even the official versions ... Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2013 #131

Did Wellstone become an 'Enemy of the State' for opposing Bush? Octafish Feb 2013 #15

No. the Wellstone CT is one of the stupidist out there. cali Feb 2013 #20

Other than the fact the cause of the crash was never established. Octafish Feb 2013 #27

You do realize that not all plane crashes can be explained? Floyd_Gondolli Feb 2013 #160

You do realize Bush and Cheney outted a CIA super-spy and her network to warn political opponents? Octafish Feb 2013 #223

I'm quite familiar with Plame Floyd_Gondolli Feb 2013 #226

They are experts. Remember John J. Kokal? Gus Weiss? Paul Sanford? Octafish Feb 2013 #252

"When Liberals Ignore Injustice:" Why The Blinkered Bias... Hissyspit Feb 2013 #102

"some" of the things done by the Bush administration? sadalien Feb 2013 #3

Yes it explains a lot. That some of us have more time on their hands to dissect every word and try politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #25

a Party Martyr xchrom Feb 2013 #4

Interesting el_bryanto Feb 2013 #6

According to National Security Presidential Directive 51, OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #42

Why does "Occupy Yadda Yadda" have to repeatedly get dragged into discusisons around here???? George II Feb 2013 #205

I read an article the other day stating that drones were JaneyVee Feb 2013 #7

Here's how civilian casualties are kept down: OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #47

No there was an actual study done. JaneyVee Feb 2013 #49

Here's an "actual study" OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #52

It doesn't really call BS because even the high number of 881 JaneyVee Feb 2013 #55

Using that rationale, OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #101

Thank you for your honesty.... daleanime Feb 2013 #8

Whose word are you taking? DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #9

A little more background, politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #19

So what if the late Darryl Gates had somehow become President DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #24

Darryl Gates stood by his officers who beat Rodney King and thought that they used reasonable force. politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #28

And that's exactly why we can't let politicians assassinate people DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #35

+1000 Hissyspit Feb 2013 #97

"Due Process" means "in accordance with law"... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #172

Did you feel the same way about torture under Bush? Iggo Feb 2013 #222

due process is not illegal uponit7771 Feb 2013 #243

Torture is not, was not, and never has been allowed by law... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #255

So you must also believe that everyone in nazi concentration camps DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #237

Human rights constitute a higher law... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #256

I see. When your definition fails, you simply abandon it. DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #257

My definition of due process... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #258

You insist on changing the argument DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #262

Good! Then we won't be discussing Nazis anymore... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #264

You are seriously using Wikipedia? DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #265

Read all the way to the bottom... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #266

Keep reading DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #267

Akhil Reed Amar is Sterling Professor of Law and Political Science at Yale University.... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #274

***DING DING DING*** uponit7771 Feb 2013 #242

I hold Darryl Gates responsible for the destruction caused by the Los Angeles riots in '92. kwassa Feb 2013 #173

Those were dark days. zappaman Feb 2013 #225

The specific person about whom all this debate (and the memo) centers....... George II Feb 2013 #210

According to the people who killed him DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #236

Anwar al-Aulaqi was known to be an al Qaeda collaborator George II Feb 2013 #240

The perpetrators of the "Wounded Knee Massacre" did nothing wrong DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #241

You're citing a 123 year old incident as justification for NOT going after known terrorists? George II Feb 2013 #248

thank you... janlyn Feb 2013 #227

When I was in Iraq, there were always rumors of Americans fighting on the other side Recursion Feb 2013 #10

Right on. Ed Suspicious Feb 2013 #108

Excellent post. TY /nt think Feb 2013 #116

So in your opinion, Had LBJ had this capability, SQUEE Feb 2013 #11

Jane Fonda was never a terrorist appacom Feb 2013 #44

It's up to someone else to decide if someone like her is a terrorist. Dawgs Feb 2013 #53

Well according to many vets, SQUEE Feb 2013 #87

They are evil because am worried other countries will bring them here. However, southernyankeebelle Feb 2013 #12

I respect your opinion but some of what you say is disturbing libtodeath Feb 2013 #13

It's a real moral dilemma for many Democrats OKNancy Feb 2013 #16

I'm with you OKNancy justiceischeap Feb 2013 #18

Do you think Curtis Lemay DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #21

No, hence the statement that it's a moral dilemma. justiceischeap Feb 2013 #26

There are two different issues DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #37

I agree it is difficult redstatebluegirl Feb 2013 #22

I don't disagree with anything you've said. Our troops are certainly at risk when we put boots on politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #38

Thanks OKNancy for your well stated dilemma.. Cha Feb 2013 #235

Aside from disagreeing with you about secretly targeting Americans with NO oversight from cali Feb 2013 #23

LOL, yes, and you felt the same way about Bush? Logical Feb 2013 #30

Did you/do you have problem with torture? R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #33

Yes I had a problem with torture, having served in the military, I had a problem with it. politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #40

rec'd for a well-thought-out pov bigtree Feb 2013 #34

I disagree with you. Iggo Feb 2013 #39

Politicaljunkie is my hero appacom Feb 2013 #41

Thanks. I appreciate knowing that I am not alone. politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #45

You're not alone. Unfortunately, we have to wade through rivers of bullshit and hyperbole... EastKYLiberal Feb 2013 #56

Dead kids and political assassinations aren't hyperbole think Feb 2013 #57

Hey, you're my homie appacom Feb 2013 #100

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY nt HomerRamone Feb 2013 #46

Not in wartime. And we are at war against the terrorists. kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #106

Blowback, blowback, blowback. Efilroft Sul Feb 2013 #133

Not in every situation when it comes to war, someone works for the other side then all bets are off uponit7771 Feb 2013 #244

Your ignorance of our/your most fundamental rights is sublime. Vinnie From Indy Feb 2013 #48

How's the weather up there on that high horse in that black and white world in which you live? politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #51

Your OP Is The Epitome Of High Horse Black And White Thinking HangOnKids Feb 2013 #134

I live on a mountain Livluvgrow Feb 2013 #50

Be careful! think Feb 2013 #54

I don't know much about the drone program and upaloopa Feb 2013 #60

Amazing what people will rationalize if it is not them. Arctic Dave Feb 2013 #62

Seriously? What you are essentially saying is that Obama has every right to execute anyone he Zorra Feb 2013 #64

That is exactly what he/she is saying, and plethoro Feb 2013 #124

Ask the soldiers on the ground how they feel about sending in an unmanned drone cutroot Feb 2013 #65

There's good and bad to that... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #69

Not true. The person piloting a Drone can see things very clearly from halfway around the world. politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #79

Can the drone operator peek inside a window? Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #144

yes drones can peek inside a window cutroot Feb 2013 #147

I stand corrected.... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #149

My take on this... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #66

And without a trial and instant execution where's the proof? think Feb 2013 #80

The civil war was not a "real war" in the constititionally-defined sense. Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #88

" I have no idea why the "poor blokes in Yemen" were targeted" think Feb 2013 #113

Ahem... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #141

He's a dictator. NOT a president. And the "suspected militants" are STILL DEAD think Feb 2013 #146

So it's not just a reading comprehension problem... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #148

If you don't understand what a dictator is that's your problem think Feb 2013 #158

Seriously, the word you're looking for is "oversight" Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #163

The UN calls Fidel Castro president too. think Feb 2013 #165

Both Saddam Hussein and Fidel Castro were legally recognized heads of state Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #168

You're pretty good at slinging personal insults think Feb 2013 #162

Exactly. People seem to have conveniently forgotten that we are at war with the terrorists, kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #107

+1 mwrguy Feb 2013 #136

Part of the issue... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #142

Who the fuck is "they"? Me, because I went to an Occupy site a few times? Bone up on your history HomerRamone Feb 2013 #161

"if you've renounced your country and are actively seeking its destruction by aligning" Hissyspit Feb 2013 #224

That's a fair point.... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #233

Same way it was determined in WW2? uponit7771 Feb 2013 #246

false choice bobduca Feb 2013 #67

What about this scenario: Jerry442 Feb 2013 #68

Uh...no Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #70

Why not? Jerry442 Feb 2013 #75

Read the memo... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #82

But "imminent" means what the decision maker wants it to mean. Jerry442 Feb 2013 #99

You're grasping at rhetorical straws....and missing. Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #139

Thank you for speaking out MirrorAshes Feb 2013 #71

What are they supposed to do think_critically Feb 2013 #72

You are part of the problem. Hell Hath No Fury Feb 2013 #74

The powers that be count on that too Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #77

I say keep up the good work! COORACPRO Feb 2013 #76

Gee Thanks For Chiming In HangOnKids Feb 2013 #84

Kill em all! Let Obama sort it out. Trials are for pussies /nt think Feb 2013 #86

Drone strikes are fine... until a repuke gets elected president. hughee99 Feb 2013 #78

Bring back unRec! n/t leftstreet Feb 2013 #81

an employee of the military industrial complex, well, not a shock that you take this position quinnox Feb 2013 #83

Good catch. I missed this tidbit in the OP response /nt think Feb 2013 #120

Agreed. freshwest Feb 2013 #85

I am as loyal to the Democratic Party MynameisBlarney Feb 2013 #89

I'm glad you're torn. These are not easy decisions. It's those who see everything politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #95

It's like somedays... MynameisBlarney Feb 2013 #123

The U.S. is a brutal country Politicub Feb 2013 #91

I agree entirely! George II Feb 2013 #92

I have a problem with handing over authority felix_numinous Feb 2013 #93

I agree, sad indeed!nt Sadiedog Feb 2013 #263

Hmmm...I swear I have read such a rant before nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #94

The Drone Ranger along and his loyal sidekick ride again! pocoloco Feb 2013 #96

Thank you for saying skydive forever Feb 2013 #98

Yeah, eventually Americans figured out the Iraq War was a pile of illegal crap.... Hissyspit Feb 2013 #105

I was just thinking about it like this: patrice Feb 2013 #103

Interesting take on a controversial and touchy subject AnnieK401 Feb 2013 #104

I have mixed feelings about the situation with the drones Proud Liberal Dem Feb 2013 #109

And not all of them are plotting terrorism against us, either. randome Feb 2013 #119

I'm sure Yemen's dictator welcomes our support............. think Feb 2013 #126

But...how can we determine who is a dictator without review of some kind? randome Feb 2013 #140

The Saudi Royal family: Dictatorship or freely elected government? think Feb 2013 #145

You're a persistent little cuss, I'll give you that... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #186

All it takes to end a 33 year dictatorship is for the "vice president" think Feb 2013 #187

You're really got to learn something about the subject Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #194

The "cut and paste" you speak of are FACTS from YOUR OWN SOURCE think Feb 2013 #217

Here's a suggestion... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #220

"in other words everything from remote-controlled drones to weapons with complete autonomy." think Feb 2013 #221

"And NOW you want them to do it without the military assistance of the United States. " think Feb 2013 #218

"I promise to be VERY, VERY outraged." Hissyspit Feb 2013 #111

Me too! think Feb 2013 #118

Love me some Tom Tomorrow! Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #215

thank you...I posted that on facebook Douglas Carpenter Feb 2013 #271

I have a couple of different opinions on this. Blanks Feb 2013 #112

"you don't know what the threats are until you get those secure briefings that the President gets" Hissyspit Feb 2013 #114

Man oh man, ain't THAT the truth! Hell Hath No Fury Feb 2013 #138

I'm loyal to my own convictions Marrah_G Feb 2013 #115

Welcome politicaljunkie41910 & thank you! This IS about life death & your assistance is appreciated. patrice Feb 2013 #117

...says someone who makes a living as part of the war machine. Comrade Grumpy Feb 2013 #121

ALL of us make our "compromises", including you & to assume that no one can do that patrice Feb 2013 #135

Are you calling me bigoted and privileged? You don't know shit, do you? Comrade Grumpy Feb 2013 #151

Remember your words well when they are at your door with plethoro Feb 2013 #122

I'm against war in general, but if it happens, I prefer a more targeted, ecstatic Feb 2013 #125

One problem with all you said. Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2013 #127

ooh, the "he kept us safe" argument Capt. Obvious Feb 2013 #128

I am going to give you a K&R..... NCTraveler Feb 2013 #130

we have not been involved in any morally justifyable military action since WWII bowens43 Feb 2013 #132

For many people, party affiliation follows, and is predicated on principle. LanternWaste Feb 2013 #137

I support drones too to kill treasonous Americans albear Feb 2013 #143

Thanks PJ.. I haven't seen Michael Isikoff on Cha Feb 2013 #150

I'm with you nt Progressive dog Feb 2013 #152

Jean Quan, "Progressive Democrat" mayor of Oakland repeatedly attacked Occupy Oakland Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #153

Excellent post. Should be an OP. woo me with science Feb 2013 #159

What does that have to do with the use of drones to kill traitors in enemy camps? George II Feb 2013 #203

You missed the part about Prog Democrat Jean Quan very nearly killing two US Veterans on US soil? Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #214

Since this discussion was about using drones in the Middle East to destroy terrorists, yes....... George II Feb 2013 #228

Here it is then. Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #249

And what does this have to do with drones in the Middle East? George II Feb 2013 #250

I can't believe some of the shit I'm reading on a supposedly progressive website. Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2013 #154

What is your definition of a terrorist? JDPriestly Feb 2013 #155

I am a Democrat, and I have no problem with the Drones dembat Feb 2013 #156

Who are "these high class morals"? Marrah_G Feb 2013 #170

and as long as secret panels can make these decisions behind closed doors - we are safe Douglas Carpenter Feb 2013 #272

The 100-or-more bystanders we have killed is a problem in the "tribal areas" Kolesar Feb 2013 #157

Personal Risk and Honorable War bobduca Feb 2013 #198

You're sad ... eom Kolesar Feb 2013 #216

You are rude and ignorant. bobduca Feb 2013 #219

I'm not American tama Feb 2013 #164

Drones are a rational and reasonable way of conducting warfare. nt reACTIONary Feb 2013 #174

Don't forget Ethical Legal and Wise! bobduca Feb 2013 #177

Ethical, Legal and Wise is encompassed by Reasonable. nt reACTIONary Feb 2013 #179

No, but if you are going to be a rubber stamp for extra-judicial killings... bobduca Feb 2013 #181

I agree with the principle of national self-defense... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #182

I hate this country (and Democrats like you) more and more every day. alarimer Feb 2013 #178

What principle is being compromised? Self defense... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #180

Unlawful aggression within the borders of sovereign nations is not self defense. Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #193

Yes, its an act of war... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #254

"I'm pretty fucking sick of Democrats like you and Obama. Evil scum." Cha Feb 2013 #231

Well I'm persuaded by such a cogent position, I've change my mind...not uponit7771 Feb 2013 #247

Whatever, it's wrong and you know it. lonestarnot Feb 2013 #184

As a member of the military, you take an oath to support and defend the Constitution, MadHound Feb 2013 #185

Have you served in the military or served in combat? George II Feb 2013 #199

What I always think is how outraged we all would have SheilaT Feb 2013 #188

Drones are just lethal force, same as applegrove Feb 2013 #190

Every Corner Cop should have a personal drone fleet! It's just the same as any other weapon! bobduca Feb 2013 #195

I agree, bobduca. No doubt the NRA dgibby Feb 2013 #245

Dreams in Infrared: The Woes of an American Drone Operator - Der Spiegel farminator3000 Feb 2013 #191

Your such a Good American. You make the Fatherland proud. n/t Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #192

Having won the Nobel Peace Prize, it proves that the drone war is a good thing. AngryAmish Feb 2013 #201

I'm a Democrat and I'm against drone strikes. Apophis Feb 2013 #207

As a gun owner.... I think it's my god given right to have a small drone base in my backyard. Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #232

I can't say I disagree with a single thing you said. This was the "shiny object" Repukes were..... Tarheel_Dem Feb 2013 #234

If the dems continue to support this they ARE going to lose in 2014!! PFunk Feb 2013 #251

American here against drones and for the constitution and rule of law xiamiam Feb 2013 #259

The "Bring it on", "Smoke 'em out", version of "Loyal Democrat". Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #260

The key phrase is "loyal". nt Bonobo Feb 2013 #268

This thread proves that there are Democrats that believe doing something is bad... AZ Progressive Feb 2013 #261

I a member of the Democratic Party rbrnmw Feb 2013 #269

as long as there is a secret panel to determine who is targeted - what could possibly go wrong? Douglas Carpenter Feb 2013 #270

I'm an American and I have an enormous problem with the whittling away at our Bill of Rights Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #273