General Discussion

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)

188. What I always think is how outraged we all would have

Reply to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 01:30 AM

Feb 2013

been if it had been the Soviet Union doing any of this stuff:

Drone attacks on civilians.
"Extraordinary Rendition"
Waterboarding
Detaining foreign nationals in an off shore prison for years on end, without any prospect of coming to trial.
Constant surveillance of the citizens. Refusing to allow certain citizens to board airplanes within the country, without ever giving a reason why.

There was a time when we prided ourselves in not behaving in this way. Justifying the Drones, means justifying anything and everything the government does just because they do it. The are the government. Laws no longer matter. Morality and ethics are just silly words with no meaning. It's a scary world, and I'm glad I'm getting older and I won't be around fifty years from now.

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I'm a loyal member of the Democratic Party and I don't have a problem with Drones [View all] politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 OP

remember what you said when they start spying on you. hobbit709 Feb 2013 #1

You are loyal to a word, Democrat liberalmike27 Feb 2013 #29

If an "American" is in another country.... George II Feb 2013 #90

Ronald Reagan called the African National Congress a 'terrorist organization'. Should coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #110

The African National Congress wasn't planning terrorist attacks against the United States George II Feb 2013 #166

Way to miss the point. The ANC weren't 'terrorists' at all. But that coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #171

Didn't mess the point at all - your comment was illogical in this discussion. George II Feb 2013 #176

Was not illogical in the slightest. Get this: when Obama orders a drone strike on coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #183

So, I assume you think targeting Al Qaeda is wrong?? kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #208

Targeting it with the military is using a bazooka to go after a flea (with coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #213

They're a terrorist because the government says so? Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2013 #129

Fine - get Iran, Somalia, Syria, etc. to extradite one of them to the US...think that will happen? George II Feb 2013 #167

That's a non sequitur and red herring. Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2013 #169

How? And how? George II Feb 2013 #175

Rights can't be forfeited that's why they are called rights. white_wolf Feb 2013 #189

One would think that if someone was in another country working to take down our government.......... George II Feb 2013 #196

One would be wrong. white_wolf Feb 2013 #197

Google "treason" George II Feb 2013 #200

Treason is determined by a trial. white_wolf Feb 2013 #202

Jimmy Lee Dykes was killed this week without a trial, or, as people here now like to say... George II Feb 2013 #204

Yes it was. white_wolf Feb 2013 #209

All I can say to that is WOW! I'm flabbergasted. George II Feb 2013 #211

I find it sad that you are shocked. white_wolf Feb 2013 #212

Police forces have been rescuing kidnappees for decades, maybe more than a century........ George II Feb 2013 #229

So where do you draw the line? How much freedom will you give up in order to feel safe? white_wolf Feb 2013 #230

Why don't you ask the parents of that kid that was held captive in the bunker for almost a week? George II Feb 2013 #238

Appeal to emotion is classic logical fallacy. white_wolf Feb 2013 #239

Appealing to sanity and reality isn't a fallacy. George II Feb 2013 #253

If we didn't care about killing innocent people we'd just kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #206

They already are, and the courts have upheld the Patriot Act which allows them to do so. I don't politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #31

Agreed, they already are, electronically for certain. Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #43

Welcome to DU Octafish Feb 2013 #2

I don't follow the Remember Paul Wellstone comment - is that just to el_bryanto Feb 2013 #5

See this post... SidDithers Feb 2013 #14

Ah - the problem with those sorts of stories is el_bryanto Feb 2013 #17

Tip of the Liberal Spear liberalmike27 Feb 2013 #32

No they can't be completely rejected el_bryanto Feb 2013 #36

At one point drone strikes were just a conspiracy. Arctic Dave Feb 2013 #58

Yes because proof is discovered el_bryanto Feb 2013 #59

Yes. We wouldn't want to spread conspiracy theories that hurt perceptions of government legitimacy. Octafish Feb 2013 #61

At least you now admit they're conspiracy theories...nt SidDithers Feb 2013 #63

I haven't admitted anything, siddithers. Octafish Feb 2013 #73

Everything is a conspiracy theory, even the official versions ... Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2013 #131

Did Wellstone become an 'Enemy of the State' for opposing Bush? Octafish Feb 2013 #15

No. the Wellstone CT is one of the stupidist out there. cali Feb 2013 #20

Other than the fact the cause of the crash was never established. Octafish Feb 2013 #27

You do realize that not all plane crashes can be explained? Floyd_Gondolli Feb 2013 #160

You do realize Bush and Cheney outted a CIA super-spy and her network to warn political opponents? Octafish Feb 2013 #223

I'm quite familiar with Plame Floyd_Gondolli Feb 2013 #226

They are experts. Remember John J. Kokal? Gus Weiss? Paul Sanford? Octafish Feb 2013 #252

"When Liberals Ignore Injustice:" Why The Blinkered Bias... Hissyspit Feb 2013 #102

"some" of the things done by the Bush administration? sadalien Feb 2013 #3

Yes it explains a lot. That some of us have more time on their hands to dissect every word and try politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #25

a Party Martyr xchrom Feb 2013 #4

Interesting el_bryanto Feb 2013 #6

According to National Security Presidential Directive 51, OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #42

Why does "Occupy Yadda Yadda" have to repeatedly get dragged into discusisons around here???? George II Feb 2013 #205

I read an article the other day stating that drones were JaneyVee Feb 2013 #7

Here's how civilian casualties are kept down: OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #47

No there was an actual study done. JaneyVee Feb 2013 #49

Here's an "actual study" OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #52

It doesn't really call BS because even the high number of 881 JaneyVee Feb 2013 #55

Using that rationale, OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #101

Thank you for your honesty.... daleanime Feb 2013 #8

Whose word are you taking? DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #9

A little more background, politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #19

So what if the late Darryl Gates had somehow become President DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #24

Darryl Gates stood by his officers who beat Rodney King and thought that they used reasonable force. politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #28

And that's exactly why we can't let politicians assassinate people DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #35

+1000 Hissyspit Feb 2013 #97

"Due Process" means "in accordance with law"... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #172

Did you feel the same way about torture under Bush? Iggo Feb 2013 #222

due process is not illegal uponit7771 Feb 2013 #243

Torture is not, was not, and never has been allowed by law... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #255

So you must also believe that everyone in nazi concentration camps DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #237

Human rights constitute a higher law... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #256

I see. When your definition fails, you simply abandon it. DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #257

My definition of due process... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #258

You insist on changing the argument DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #262

Good! Then we won't be discussing Nazis anymore... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #264

You are seriously using Wikipedia? DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #265

Read all the way to the bottom... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #266

Keep reading DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #267

Akhil Reed Amar is Sterling Professor of Law and Political Science at Yale University.... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #274

***DING DING DING*** uponit7771 Feb 2013 #242

I hold Darryl Gates responsible for the destruction caused by the Los Angeles riots in '92. kwassa Feb 2013 #173

Those were dark days. zappaman Feb 2013 #225

The specific person about whom all this debate (and the memo) centers....... George II Feb 2013 #210

According to the people who killed him DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #236

Anwar al-Aulaqi was known to be an al Qaeda collaborator George II Feb 2013 #240

The perpetrators of the "Wounded Knee Massacre" did nothing wrong DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #241

You're citing a 123 year old incident as justification for NOT going after known terrorists? George II Feb 2013 #248

thank you... janlyn Feb 2013 #227

When I was in Iraq, there were always rumors of Americans fighting on the other side Recursion Feb 2013 #10

Right on. Ed Suspicious Feb 2013 #108

Excellent post. TY /nt think Feb 2013 #116

So in your opinion, Had LBJ had this capability, SQUEE Feb 2013 #11

Jane Fonda was never a terrorist appacom Feb 2013 #44

It's up to someone else to decide if someone like her is a terrorist. Dawgs Feb 2013 #53

Well according to many vets, SQUEE Feb 2013 #87

They are evil because am worried other countries will bring them here. However, southernyankeebelle Feb 2013 #12

I respect your opinion but some of what you say is disturbing libtodeath Feb 2013 #13

It's a real moral dilemma for many Democrats OKNancy Feb 2013 #16

I'm with you OKNancy justiceischeap Feb 2013 #18

Do you think Curtis Lemay DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #21

No, hence the statement that it's a moral dilemma. justiceischeap Feb 2013 #26

There are two different issues DefenseLawyer Feb 2013 #37

I agree it is difficult redstatebluegirl Feb 2013 #22

I don't disagree with anything you've said. Our troops are certainly at risk when we put boots on politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #38

Thanks OKNancy for your well stated dilemma.. Cha Feb 2013 #235

Aside from disagreeing with you about secretly targeting Americans with NO oversight from cali Feb 2013 #23

LOL, yes, and you felt the same way about Bush? Logical Feb 2013 #30

Did you/do you have problem with torture? R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #33

Yes I had a problem with torture, having served in the military, I had a problem with it. politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #40

rec'd for a well-thought-out pov bigtree Feb 2013 #34

I disagree with you. Iggo Feb 2013 #39

Politicaljunkie is my hero appacom Feb 2013 #41

Thanks. I appreciate knowing that I am not alone. politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #45

You're not alone. Unfortunately, we have to wade through rivers of bullshit and hyperbole... EastKYLiberal Feb 2013 #56

Dead kids and political assassinations aren't hyperbole think Feb 2013 #57

Hey, you're my homie appacom Feb 2013 #100

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY nt HomerRamone Feb 2013 #46

Not in wartime. And we are at war against the terrorists. kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #106

Blowback, blowback, blowback. Efilroft Sul Feb 2013 #133

Not in every situation when it comes to war, someone works for the other side then all bets are off uponit7771 Feb 2013 #244

Your ignorance of our/your most fundamental rights is sublime. Vinnie From Indy Feb 2013 #48

How's the weather up there on that high horse in that black and white world in which you live? politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #51

Your OP Is The Epitome Of High Horse Black And White Thinking HangOnKids Feb 2013 #134

I live on a mountain Livluvgrow Feb 2013 #50

Be careful! think Feb 2013 #54

I don't know much about the drone program and upaloopa Feb 2013 #60

Amazing what people will rationalize if it is not them. Arctic Dave Feb 2013 #62

Seriously? What you are essentially saying is that Obama has every right to execute anyone he Zorra Feb 2013 #64

That is exactly what he/she is saying, and plethoro Feb 2013 #124

Ask the soldiers on the ground how they feel about sending in an unmanned drone cutroot Feb 2013 #65

There's good and bad to that... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #69

Not true. The person piloting a Drone can see things very clearly from halfway around the world. politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #79

Can the drone operator peek inside a window? Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #144

yes drones can peek inside a window cutroot Feb 2013 #147

I stand corrected.... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #149

My take on this... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #66

And without a trial and instant execution where's the proof? think Feb 2013 #80

The civil war was not a "real war" in the constititionally-defined sense. Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #88

" I have no idea why the "poor blokes in Yemen" were targeted" think Feb 2013 #113

Ahem... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #141

He's a dictator. NOT a president. And the "suspected militants" are STILL DEAD think Feb 2013 #146

So it's not just a reading comprehension problem... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #148

If you don't understand what a dictator is that's your problem think Feb 2013 #158

Seriously, the word you're looking for is "oversight" Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #163

The UN calls Fidel Castro president too. think Feb 2013 #165

Both Saddam Hussein and Fidel Castro were legally recognized heads of state Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #168

You're pretty good at slinging personal insults think Feb 2013 #162

Exactly. People seem to have conveniently forgotten that we are at war with the terrorists, kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #107

+1 mwrguy Feb 2013 #136

Part of the issue... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #142

Who the fuck is "they"? Me, because I went to an Occupy site a few times? Bone up on your history HomerRamone Feb 2013 #161

"if you've renounced your country and are actively seeking its destruction by aligning" Hissyspit Feb 2013 #224

That's a fair point.... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #233

Same way it was determined in WW2? uponit7771 Feb 2013 #246

false choice bobduca Feb 2013 #67

What about this scenario: Jerry442 Feb 2013 #68

Uh...no Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #70

Why not? Jerry442 Feb 2013 #75

Read the memo... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #82

But "imminent" means what the decision maker wants it to mean. Jerry442 Feb 2013 #99

You're grasping at rhetorical straws....and missing. Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #139

Thank you for speaking out MirrorAshes Feb 2013 #71

What are they supposed to do think_critically Feb 2013 #72

You are part of the problem. Hell Hath No Fury Feb 2013 #74

The powers that be count on that too Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #77

I say keep up the good work! COORACPRO Feb 2013 #76

Gee Thanks For Chiming In HangOnKids Feb 2013 #84

Kill em all! Let Obama sort it out. Trials are for pussies /nt think Feb 2013 #86

Drone strikes are fine... until a repuke gets elected president. hughee99 Feb 2013 #78

Bring back unRec! n/t leftstreet Feb 2013 #81

an employee of the military industrial complex, well, not a shock that you take this position quinnox Feb 2013 #83

Good catch. I missed this tidbit in the OP response /nt think Feb 2013 #120

Agreed. freshwest Feb 2013 #85

I am as loyal to the Democratic Party MynameisBlarney Feb 2013 #89

I'm glad you're torn. These are not easy decisions. It's those who see everything politicaljunkie41910 Feb 2013 #95

It's like somedays... MynameisBlarney Feb 2013 #123

The U.S. is a brutal country Politicub Feb 2013 #91

I agree entirely! George II Feb 2013 #92

I have a problem with handing over authority felix_numinous Feb 2013 #93

I agree, sad indeed!nt Sadiedog Feb 2013 #263

Hmmm...I swear I have read such a rant before nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #94

The Drone Ranger along and his loyal sidekick ride again! pocoloco Feb 2013 #96

Thank you for saying skydive forever Feb 2013 #98

Yeah, eventually Americans figured out the Iraq War was a pile of illegal crap.... Hissyspit Feb 2013 #105

I was just thinking about it like this: patrice Feb 2013 #103

Interesting take on a controversial and touchy subject AnnieK401 Feb 2013 #104

I have mixed feelings about the situation with the drones Proud Liberal Dem Feb 2013 #109

And not all of them are plotting terrorism against us, either. randome Feb 2013 #119

I'm sure Yemen's dictator welcomes our support............. think Feb 2013 #126

But...how can we determine who is a dictator without review of some kind? randome Feb 2013 #140

The Saudi Royal family: Dictatorship or freely elected government? think Feb 2013 #145

You're a persistent little cuss, I'll give you that... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #186

All it takes to end a 33 year dictatorship is for the "vice president" think Feb 2013 #187

You're really got to learn something about the subject Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #194

The "cut and paste" you speak of are FACTS from YOUR OWN SOURCE think Feb 2013 #217

Here's a suggestion... Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #220

"in other words everything from remote-controlled drones to weapons with complete autonomy." think Feb 2013 #221

"And NOW you want them to do it without the military assistance of the United States. " think Feb 2013 #218

"I promise to be VERY, VERY outraged." Hissyspit Feb 2013 #111

Me too! think Feb 2013 #118

Love me some Tom Tomorrow! Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #215

thank you...I posted that on facebook Douglas Carpenter Feb 2013 #271

I have a couple of different opinions on this. Blanks Feb 2013 #112

"you don't know what the threats are until you get those secure briefings that the President gets" Hissyspit Feb 2013 #114

Man oh man, ain't THAT the truth! Hell Hath No Fury Feb 2013 #138

I'm loyal to my own convictions Marrah_G Feb 2013 #115

Welcome politicaljunkie41910 & thank you! This IS about life death & your assistance is appreciated. patrice Feb 2013 #117

...says someone who makes a living as part of the war machine. Comrade Grumpy Feb 2013 #121

ALL of us make our "compromises", including you & to assume that no one can do that patrice Feb 2013 #135

Are you calling me bigoted and privileged? You don't know shit, do you? Comrade Grumpy Feb 2013 #151

Remember your words well when they are at your door with plethoro Feb 2013 #122

I'm against war in general, but if it happens, I prefer a more targeted, ecstatic Feb 2013 #125

One problem with all you said. Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2013 #127

ooh, the "he kept us safe" argument Capt. Obvious Feb 2013 #128

I am going to give you a K&R..... NCTraveler Feb 2013 #130

we have not been involved in any morally justifyable military action since WWII bowens43 Feb 2013 #132

For many people, party affiliation follows, and is predicated on principle. LanternWaste Feb 2013 #137

I support drones too to kill treasonous Americans albear Feb 2013 #143

Thanks PJ.. I haven't seen Michael Isikoff on Cha Feb 2013 #150

I'm with you nt Progressive dog Feb 2013 #152

Jean Quan, "Progressive Democrat" mayor of Oakland repeatedly attacked Occupy Oakland Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #153

Excellent post. Should be an OP. woo me with science Feb 2013 #159

What does that have to do with the use of drones to kill traitors in enemy camps? George II Feb 2013 #203

You missed the part about Prog Democrat Jean Quan very nearly killing two US Veterans on US soil? Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #214

Since this discussion was about using drones in the Middle East to destroy terrorists, yes....... George II Feb 2013 #228

Here it is then. Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #249

And what does this have to do with drones in the Middle East? George II Feb 2013 #250

I can't believe some of the shit I'm reading on a supposedly progressive website. Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2013 #154

What is your definition of a terrorist? JDPriestly Feb 2013 #155

I am a Democrat, and I have no problem with the Drones dembat Feb 2013 #156

Who are "these high class morals"? Marrah_G Feb 2013 #170

and as long as secret panels can make these decisions behind closed doors - we are safe Douglas Carpenter Feb 2013 #272

The 100-or-more bystanders we have killed is a problem in the "tribal areas" Kolesar Feb 2013 #157

Personal Risk and Honorable War bobduca Feb 2013 #198

You're sad ... eom Kolesar Feb 2013 #216

You are rude and ignorant. bobduca Feb 2013 #219

I'm not American tama Feb 2013 #164

Drones are a rational and reasonable way of conducting warfare. nt reACTIONary Feb 2013 #174

Don't forget Ethical Legal and Wise! bobduca Feb 2013 #177

Ethical, Legal and Wise is encompassed by Reasonable. nt reACTIONary Feb 2013 #179

No, but if you are going to be a rubber stamp for extra-judicial killings... bobduca Feb 2013 #181

I agree with the principle of national self-defense... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #182

I hate this country (and Democrats like you) more and more every day. alarimer Feb 2013 #178

What principle is being compromised? Self defense... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #180

Unlawful aggression within the borders of sovereign nations is not self defense. Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #193

Yes, its an act of war... reACTIONary Feb 2013 #254

"I'm pretty fucking sick of Democrats like you and Obama. Evil scum." Cha Feb 2013 #231

Well I'm persuaded by such a cogent position, I've change my mind...not uponit7771 Feb 2013 #247

Whatever, it's wrong and you know it. lonestarnot Feb 2013 #184

As a member of the military, you take an oath to support and defend the Constitution, MadHound Feb 2013 #185

Have you served in the military or served in combat? George II Feb 2013 #199

What I always think is how outraged we all would have SheilaT Feb 2013 #188

Drones are just lethal force, same as applegrove Feb 2013 #190

Every Corner Cop should have a personal drone fleet! It's just the same as any other weapon! bobduca Feb 2013 #195

I agree, bobduca. No doubt the NRA dgibby Feb 2013 #245

Dreams in Infrared: The Woes of an American Drone Operator - Der Spiegel farminator3000 Feb 2013 #191

Your such a Good American. You make the Fatherland proud. n/t Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #192

Having won the Nobel Peace Prize, it proves that the drone war is a good thing. AngryAmish Feb 2013 #201

I'm a Democrat and I'm against drone strikes. Apophis Feb 2013 #207

As a gun owner.... I think it's my god given right to have a small drone base in my backyard. Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #232

I can't say I disagree with a single thing you said. This was the "shiny object" Repukes were..... Tarheel_Dem Feb 2013 #234

If the dems continue to support this they ARE going to lose in 2014!! PFunk Feb 2013 #251

American here against drones and for the constitution and rule of law xiamiam Feb 2013 #259

The "Bring it on", "Smoke 'em out", version of "Loyal Democrat". Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #260

The key phrase is "loyal". nt Bonobo Feb 2013 #268

This thread proves that there are Democrats that believe doing something is bad... AZ Progressive Feb 2013 #261

I a member of the Democratic Party rbrnmw Feb 2013 #269

as long as there is a secret panel to determine who is targeted - what could possibly go wrong? Douglas Carpenter Feb 2013 #270

I'm an American and I have an enormous problem with the whittling away at our Bill of Rights Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #273