General Discussion

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)

68. Then your experience and my experience is different, and we see the situation differently.

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 05:53 PM

Mar 2013

I have not attended Mass in decades, and I'm grateful that I never held the position of being an altar boy.

Pedophilia is inherently wrong. It cannot be excused on any level.

Excuse me for noticing but when you say, "People here do speak up about the scandal," I noticed that you didn't say "DU Catholics here do speak up about the scandal." And you didn't say "A great many DU Catholics here do speak up about the scandal."

When anyone says that non-Catholics are telling Catholics "they should or must leave their church," based on my experience, I see that as a diversion. Let's assume that one or two, or even more, have said that. My answer is "So what?" If there had been a diligent effort to clean out the problem, no one would be saying that at all. And if there had been a diligent effort, all Catholics would be able to point to the diligent effort.

In addition, while many people are revulsed by the pedophilia, I have not seen a wide-spread effort on DU to demand that Catholics leave the Church. A few isolated comments by a few DUers does not mean that there has been wide-spread DU criticism.

I left the Church long before this pedophilia was known. If I hadn't, I would have been relentless. I certainly wouldn't have cared as to whether the feelings of a few DUers were hurt.

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What people here who demand Catholics leave their church don't understand. [View all] Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 OP

Thank you for sharing your view point. I feel the same way. But I do have so say I have become southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #1

people wrongfully blame the entire religion instead of the bad people within it leftyohiolib Mar 2013 #2

"Bad people within it" =/= "Bad people RUNNING it" gcomeau Mar 2013 #26

"most Catholics identify with their church on a very local level." hedgehog Mar 2013 #3

I am very much anti-Catholic but more along the line of anti-religion LiberalFighter Mar 2013 #21

Is leaving the Church the only option? Can't you speak up and demand accountability? AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #4

May I suggest you re-read the OP nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #6

At what point can we expect folks to see the church isn't changing.... Lionessa Mar 2013 #9

The ones who won't actively speak up and demand accountability are satisfied with the path AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #12

And hence why I judge the continued catholic pride so harshly. Lionessa Mar 2013 #14

Why would "we" expect anyone to find another path? pintobean Mar 2013 #18

Because the path they've chosen to support is harming others. Lionessa Mar 2013 #23

If people whant to stay with their denomiation they should. hrmjustin Mar 2013 #31

Is it too much to note that their change from the inside tactic is not working well? Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #131

It will take time. hrmjustin Mar 2013 #133

also church is not a democracy La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #48

You don't have the right to expect anything. It. Is. Not. Your. Business. nt DevonRex Mar 2013 #90

Amen. kwassa Mar 2013 #94

The fuck it isn't. LAGC Mar 2013 #105

The poster's comment was about people here who are Catholics, not "The Church." DevonRex Mar 2013 #112

People here do speak up about the scandal. hrmjustin Mar 2013 #30

Then your experience and my experience is different, and we see the situation differently. AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #68

Let me say this I have not seen any member of DU of any faith say they were happy with the hrmjustin Mar 2013 #76

exactly. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #151

If one disagrees with the church too loudly or openly one might be excommunicated. smokey nj Mar 2013 #70

A principled person will speak up even if there is an open or implied threat of excommunication. AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #71

I agree. smokey nj Mar 2013 #73

Talk about holier than thou. Bobbie Jo Mar 2013 #104

Show us a single link where this has happened to a lay person over something s/he said. /t pnwmom Mar 2013 #116

The doctors and mother of a 9-year-old rape victim in Brazil were excommunicated after smokey nj Mar 2013 #118

That excommunication was overturned by the Archbishop. pnwmom Mar 2013 #153

Were they or were they not excommunicated for going against doctrine? I also gave another example. smokey nj Mar 2013 #154

They were not. Someone decreed it had been an automatic excommunication, but then the Archbishop pnwmom Mar 2013 #156

You're picking at nits now and you haven't addressed the other example I provided. You asked for one smokey nj Mar 2013 #157

How do you know how much individual Catholics are speaking up? pnwmom Mar 2013 #114

The OP clearly indicates that the author knows that Catholics are not sufficiently speaking up. AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #126

Well stated nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #5

Yes, I know. Deep13 Mar 2013 #7

Just because parishoners are ignorant of how their support of the local parishes Lionessa Mar 2013 #8

You will likely dismiss this comment Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #22

Uhm are being obtuse or really just this blind.... Lionessa Mar 2013 #25

The NRA is a single issue organization. Religions, for believers, are much more than a special... Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #29

Religion is a single issue organization as well. Lionessa Mar 2013 #32

I would happily boycott a red state that banned abortion. AtheistCrusader Mar 2013 #43

The nuances usually get lost in these type discussions Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #45

I did see some AtheistCrusader Mar 2013 #46

I appreciated our exchange. Thanks n/t Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #69

A concept from the rule golden: Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #134

I do not think they should get to do so with impunity. And it's not my Church n/t Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #152

Yup. Also no one said that this process should be easy La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #28

Here, here! Brainstormy Mar 2013 #33

What is "support"? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #124

yes, it is all support. when you follow and institution and add to its active numbers La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #125

Well, that's a wonderfully fucked-up way of thinking. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #127

No one said any of that crap about brain washed sheep, you just made that up to fight with it. Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #132

You're really not quick on the uptake with the whole internet discussion board thingie, are you? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #137

no, its not. what's fucked up is not only do you want to support La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #138

Because I've never advocated misogyny or homophobia. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #139

this is like saying you vote republican, but you are not personally against gay marriage or abortion La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #140

Oh, cut the bullshit. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #141

yes, i am not demanding anything for you, merely pointing out that you La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #142

Of course you aren't. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #143

There is another possibility: you can be inconsistent. JVS Mar 2013 #146

Why do you fail to recognize the fact that by supporting an organization, you indirectly support... JVS Mar 2013 #145

Support how? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #147

It seems that when 1,000,000,000 do that a lot of homophobia and sexism result. JVS Mar 2013 #148

I'll remember that when I say the Our Father this Sunday. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #149

Good argument. ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #10

In Facebook lingo, most Catholics' relationship status with Church is - It's Complicated. reformist2 Mar 2013 #11

I keep seeing this false disconnect... backscatter712 Mar 2013 #13

Not arguing any of your points mrs_p Mar 2013 #120

If good people leave the church in protest what will be left? Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #15

I perfectly understand... MellowDem Mar 2013 #16

If you're an atheist you can go to a UU church for your community. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #34

For people who are concerned... MellowDem Mar 2013 #38

I discovered the UU church in 1978 when I was in college in San Antonio. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #40

Very well said. JVS Mar 2013 #121

Focusing on the pretty little flower while ignoring the huge cesspool in which it grows Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #17

Fabulous analogy amuse bouche Mar 2013 #42

I can't admire a beautiful flower while still wanting to clean up the surrounding cesspool? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #50

Of course you think that. You think that because you don't really think about it at all. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #60

Did you actually read my post, or are you just claiming to have read it? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #61

"Most ordinary Catholics view it as necessary structure to keep the Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #65

All I said was that having a heirarchical structure was necessary for the Catholic Church. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #66

Time for 0 Tolerance for enabling groups whose leaders have done bad things, Dragonfli Mar 2013 #72

Too late, Robin. n/t Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #74

So you nave Denounced Obama and the whole of the land of Democrats! Bold choice sir! Dragonfli Mar 2013 #78

You obviously haven't read many of my posts. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #82

I agree with much of what you have said, I differ in that I believe myth Dragonfli Mar 2013 #88

Coincidentally, you raise a subject I'm reexamining right now. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #95

I believe I read that, but it was a couple or more decades ago and Dragonfli Mar 2013 #106

He wrote it in 1991 and it is a follow-up to his other work, I think you are going to enjoy it. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #111

This Discussion brings to mind something I studied related to Leary and Robert Anton Wilson Dragonfli Mar 2013 #109

You know that's funny, and thank you BTW, I know of Drs. Leary & Wilson, but never Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #161

Which is why I won't condemn anyone just for being Catholic, any more than for being a Democrat. nomorenomore08 Mar 2013 #83

DUers who are anti-Catholic are entitled to their opinion BUT Bake Mar 2013 #19

Precisely. I think that's an important distinction to make. nomorenomore08 Mar 2013 #85

I don't think it's the demanding so much that is upsetting to some Whisp Mar 2013 #144

my experience, such as it is, as a Catholic hfojvt Mar 2013 #20

An alert church or synagogue will have someone greet you at the door. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #37

a mere greeting at the door though hfojvt Mar 2013 #39

That is true. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #67

This message was self-deleted by its author Puzzledtraveller Mar 2013 #24

I hope people read each word you wrote and understand it. Kick and Rec. Hekate Mar 2013 #27

I'm not Catholic, but have had experience with a denomination that JDPriestly Mar 2013 #35

Does shelters.... Bohemianwriter Mar 2013 #36

Reminds me a lot of Bush amuse bouche Mar 2013 #41

a logical answer and a voice of reason right here on DU? I'm shocked. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #44

I may not have a say in this, being Atheist and all, but... Taverner Mar 2013 #47

Will do. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #49

Who was it who said, "Silence implies consent."? SheilaT Mar 2013 #51

There is a lot of call for change and reform amongst rank and file Catholics. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #52

Yeah Spider Jerusalem Mar 2013 #53

Replace "Catholic" with "Presbyterian" and I did exactly that. backscatter712 Mar 2013 #63

If that's what works for you, great. nomorenomore08 Mar 2013 #86

If you've been indoctrinated since a child... MellowDem Mar 2013 #84

That actually kind of puts things into perspective as being different from my situation ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #98

Who on DU has actully "demanded" or "asked" You to leave Your church?? hue Mar 2013 #54

Without calling out individual posters, it's been said more than once over the past week. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #57

you don't link to an example because you know you are unfairly characterizing your own inferences. Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #130

Not to go full Meta (may it Rest in Peace) but.... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #135

i am not catholic d_r Mar 2013 #55

I applaud you in explaining your view. timdog44 Mar 2013 #56

So well written and true Tumbulu Mar 2013 #58

God I hope this is the last CC post. xtraxritical Mar 2013 #59

This may come as a surprise, but nobody's forcing you to read them. (nt) Posteritatis Mar 2013 #89

Sounds like a cult to me. Zoeisright Mar 2013 #62

Excuse me? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #64

I support your decision to stay. pintobean Mar 2013 #77

I'm puzzled by a lot of these threads about why Catholics want to stay or don't want to leave. eallen Mar 2013 #75

Well speaking solely in my case.... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #79

Cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty... MellowDem Mar 2013 #87

Who is admitting it? Or are you just passing judgment? kwassa Mar 2013 #96

I don't understand your post... MellowDem Mar 2013 #100

No, it isn't. kwassa Mar 2013 #103

Why CAN'T you leave the Catholic Church? HockeyMom Mar 2013 #80

+ a million Apophis Mar 2013 #92

I never said YOU COULDN'T leave the Catholic Church. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #93

well said. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #150

One can still *be* Catholic without actually showing-up and putting money in the plate. Ian David Mar 2013 #81

A concept from the rule golden: Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #91

Thanks for the info. It's funny stuff you can miss despite being raised Catholic ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #97

whoa, WTF? jazzimov Mar 2013 #99

The liberal movement is about tolerance of certain sorts... MellowDem Mar 2013 #101

As a former Catholic customerserviceguy Mar 2013 #102

Just an addendum.... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #107

I remember when I briefly joined the Catholic church I had just had my second child liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #108

I'll admit what you say is true, but there's still one large thorn in the whole thing for me: ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #110

No woman will ever speak? Not true. We've heard nuns at two different Churches give homilies. pnwmom Mar 2013 #115

I'm happy to be wrong. Like I said I haven't gone to been to a Mass in a decade now ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #136

It depends on the church. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #122

Thanks for a great piece. You really describe the situation for progressive Catholics very well. n/t pnwmom Mar 2013 #113

I don't think anyone here xfundy Mar 2013 #117

Are you blind? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #123

An insinuation? OP says it is a demand made to you by many. Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #128

I left the Catholic Church some thirty years ago. bklyncowgirl Mar 2013 #119

Just like demanding someone you know leave the republican party..They have to come to it.. Tikki Mar 2013 #129

I really don't think you want to bring the Jesuits into this discussion.... OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #155

What? ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #158

LOL. "What" yourself. Keep looking. nt. OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #159

Uh, I also posted my link in that post ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #162

Yes, that's why I laughed. Here's my source.... OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #165

Interestingly enough, the book was published by Jack Chick. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #167

So what? What's your point? Is that all you have to attempt to discredit the author? nt. OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #168

Well, the author IS a kook. zappaman Mar 2013 #169

I prefer this one: Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #172

Based on the reviews, it seems as though it is heavily rooted in conspiracy theory and hearsay. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #170

LOL. Perhaps you should start with the author's sources in his footnotes.... OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #171

I'm going to be completely honest with you here.... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #173

Are you just going to be cryptic about it, or actually elaborate? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #160

Read my post #165. nt. OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #166

I have stayed out of this argument because I am not a Catholic and it is not my business. But when jwirr Mar 2013 #163

what you propose does not work in the real world. Take a look at ChairmanAgnostic Mar 2013 #164