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ButterflyBlood

(12,644 posts)

136. I'm happy to be wrong. Like I said I haven't gone to been to a Mass in a decade now

Thu Mar 21, 2013, 10:59 AM

Mar 2013

So I'm not familiar with how things change. Fundamentally though the whole ordination policy, which also results in an all-male patriarchy and leadership, just strikes me as so fundamentally unfair. I'm pretty proud of the fact that of the two pastors who held me when I was baptized the second time, one was a woman (and not just that, but one from a family of Vietnamese immigrants who was raised Buddhist and became a Christian at 19), something that I know could never happen in a Catholic church and obviously didn't when I was a baby.

Like I said here, there are plenty of people on a completely different wavelength in regards to this, like myself. For me and so many others quitting the church really was just like switching from Coke to Pepsi or vice-versa, such a non-issue. Just how connected others can be can be easily missed. But for those of us without such a connection, any type of injustice becomes pretty irreconcilable.

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What people here who demand Catholics leave their church don't understand. [View all] Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 OP

Thank you for sharing your view point. I feel the same way. But I do have so say I have become southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #1

people wrongfully blame the entire religion instead of the bad people within it leftyohiolib Mar 2013 #2

"Bad people within it" =/= "Bad people RUNNING it" gcomeau Mar 2013 #26

"most Catholics identify with their church on a very local level." hedgehog Mar 2013 #3

I am very much anti-Catholic but more along the line of anti-religion LiberalFighter Mar 2013 #21

Is leaving the Church the only option? Can't you speak up and demand accountability? AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #4

May I suggest you re-read the OP nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #6

At what point can we expect folks to see the church isn't changing.... Lionessa Mar 2013 #9

The ones who won't actively speak up and demand accountability are satisfied with the path AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #12

And hence why I judge the continued catholic pride so harshly. Lionessa Mar 2013 #14

Why would "we" expect anyone to find another path? pintobean Mar 2013 #18

Because the path they've chosen to support is harming others. Lionessa Mar 2013 #23

If people whant to stay with their denomiation they should. hrmjustin Mar 2013 #31

Is it too much to note that their change from the inside tactic is not working well? Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #131

It will take time. hrmjustin Mar 2013 #133

also church is not a democracy La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #48

You don't have the right to expect anything. It. Is. Not. Your. Business. nt DevonRex Mar 2013 #90

Amen. kwassa Mar 2013 #94

The fuck it isn't. LAGC Mar 2013 #105

The poster's comment was about people here who are Catholics, not "The Church." DevonRex Mar 2013 #112

People here do speak up about the scandal. hrmjustin Mar 2013 #30

Then your experience and my experience is different, and we see the situation differently. AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #68

Let me say this I have not seen any member of DU of any faith say they were happy with the hrmjustin Mar 2013 #76

exactly. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #151

If one disagrees with the church too loudly or openly one might be excommunicated. smokey nj Mar 2013 #70

A principled person will speak up even if there is an open or implied threat of excommunication. AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #71

I agree. smokey nj Mar 2013 #73

Talk about holier than thou. Bobbie Jo Mar 2013 #104

Show us a single link where this has happened to a lay person over something s/he said. /t pnwmom Mar 2013 #116

The doctors and mother of a 9-year-old rape victim in Brazil were excommunicated after smokey nj Mar 2013 #118

That excommunication was overturned by the Archbishop. pnwmom Mar 2013 #153

Were they or were they not excommunicated for going against doctrine? I also gave another example. smokey nj Mar 2013 #154

They were not. Someone decreed it had been an automatic excommunication, but then the Archbishop pnwmom Mar 2013 #156

You're picking at nits now and you haven't addressed the other example I provided. You asked for one smokey nj Mar 2013 #157

How do you know how much individual Catholics are speaking up? pnwmom Mar 2013 #114

The OP clearly indicates that the author knows that Catholics are not sufficiently speaking up. AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #126

Well stated nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #5

Yes, I know. Deep13 Mar 2013 #7

Just because parishoners are ignorant of how their support of the local parishes Lionessa Mar 2013 #8

You will likely dismiss this comment Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #22

Uhm are being obtuse or really just this blind.... Lionessa Mar 2013 #25

The NRA is a single issue organization. Religions, for believers, are much more than a special... Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #29

Religion is a single issue organization as well. Lionessa Mar 2013 #32

I would happily boycott a red state that banned abortion. AtheistCrusader Mar 2013 #43

The nuances usually get lost in these type discussions Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #45

I did see some AtheistCrusader Mar 2013 #46

I appreciated our exchange. Thanks n/t Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #69

A concept from the rule golden: Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #134

I do not think they should get to do so with impunity. And it's not my Church n/t Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #152

Yup. Also no one said that this process should be easy La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #28

Here, here! Brainstormy Mar 2013 #33

What is "support"? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #124

yes, it is all support. when you follow and institution and add to its active numbers La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #125

Well, that's a wonderfully fucked-up way of thinking. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #127

No one said any of that crap about brain washed sheep, you just made that up to fight with it. Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #132

You're really not quick on the uptake with the whole internet discussion board thingie, are you? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #137

no, its not. what's fucked up is not only do you want to support La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #138

Because I've never advocated misogyny or homophobia. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #139

this is like saying you vote republican, but you are not personally against gay marriage or abortion La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #140

Oh, cut the bullshit. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #141

yes, i am not demanding anything for you, merely pointing out that you La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #142

Of course you aren't. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #143

There is another possibility: you can be inconsistent. JVS Mar 2013 #146

Why do you fail to recognize the fact that by supporting an organization, you indirectly support... JVS Mar 2013 #145

Support how? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #147

It seems that when 1,000,000,000 do that a lot of homophobia and sexism result. JVS Mar 2013 #148

I'll remember that when I say the Our Father this Sunday. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #149

Good argument. ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #10

In Facebook lingo, most Catholics' relationship status with Church is - It's Complicated. reformist2 Mar 2013 #11

I keep seeing this false disconnect... backscatter712 Mar 2013 #13

Not arguing any of your points mrs_p Mar 2013 #120

If good people leave the church in protest what will be left? Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #15

I perfectly understand... MellowDem Mar 2013 #16

If you're an atheist you can go to a UU church for your community. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #34

For people who are concerned... MellowDem Mar 2013 #38

I discovered the UU church in 1978 when I was in college in San Antonio. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #40

Very well said. JVS Mar 2013 #121

Focusing on the pretty little flower while ignoring the huge cesspool in which it grows Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #17

Fabulous analogy amuse bouche Mar 2013 #42

I can't admire a beautiful flower while still wanting to clean up the surrounding cesspool? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #50

Of course you think that. You think that because you don't really think about it at all. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #60

Did you actually read my post, or are you just claiming to have read it? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #61

"Most ordinary Catholics view it as necessary structure to keep the Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #65

All I said was that having a heirarchical structure was necessary for the Catholic Church. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #66

Time for 0 Tolerance for enabling groups whose leaders have done bad things, Dragonfli Mar 2013 #72

Too late, Robin. n/t Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #74

So you nave Denounced Obama and the whole of the land of Democrats! Bold choice sir! Dragonfli Mar 2013 #78

You obviously haven't read many of my posts. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #82

I agree with much of what you have said, I differ in that I believe myth Dragonfli Mar 2013 #88

Coincidentally, you raise a subject I'm reexamining right now. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #95

I believe I read that, but it was a couple or more decades ago and Dragonfli Mar 2013 #106

He wrote it in 1991 and it is a follow-up to his other work, I think you are going to enjoy it. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #111

This Discussion brings to mind something I studied related to Leary and Robert Anton Wilson Dragonfli Mar 2013 #109

You know that's funny, and thank you BTW, I know of Drs. Leary & Wilson, but never Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #161

Which is why I won't condemn anyone just for being Catholic, any more than for being a Democrat. nomorenomore08 Mar 2013 #83

DUers who are anti-Catholic are entitled to their opinion BUT Bake Mar 2013 #19

Precisely. I think that's an important distinction to make. nomorenomore08 Mar 2013 #85

I don't think it's the demanding so much that is upsetting to some Whisp Mar 2013 #144

my experience, such as it is, as a Catholic hfojvt Mar 2013 #20

An alert church or synagogue will have someone greet you at the door. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #37

a mere greeting at the door though hfojvt Mar 2013 #39

That is true. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #67

This message was self-deleted by its author Puzzledtraveller Mar 2013 #24

I hope people read each word you wrote and understand it. Kick and Rec. Hekate Mar 2013 #27

I'm not Catholic, but have had experience with a denomination that JDPriestly Mar 2013 #35

Does shelters.... Bohemianwriter Mar 2013 #36

Reminds me a lot of Bush amuse bouche Mar 2013 #41

a logical answer and a voice of reason right here on DU? I'm shocked. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #44

I may not have a say in this, being Atheist and all, but... Taverner Mar 2013 #47

Will do. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #49

Who was it who said, "Silence implies consent."? SheilaT Mar 2013 #51

There is a lot of call for change and reform amongst rank and file Catholics. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #52

Yeah Spider Jerusalem Mar 2013 #53

Replace "Catholic" with "Presbyterian" and I did exactly that. backscatter712 Mar 2013 #63

If that's what works for you, great. nomorenomore08 Mar 2013 #86

If you've been indoctrinated since a child... MellowDem Mar 2013 #84

That actually kind of puts things into perspective as being different from my situation ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #98

Who on DU has actully "demanded" or "asked" You to leave Your church?? hue Mar 2013 #54

Without calling out individual posters, it's been said more than once over the past week. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #57

you don't link to an example because you know you are unfairly characterizing your own inferences. Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #130

Not to go full Meta (may it Rest in Peace) but.... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #135

i am not catholic d_r Mar 2013 #55

I applaud you in explaining your view. timdog44 Mar 2013 #56

So well written and true Tumbulu Mar 2013 #58

God I hope this is the last CC post. xtraxritical Mar 2013 #59

This may come as a surprise, but nobody's forcing you to read them. (nt) Posteritatis Mar 2013 #89

Sounds like a cult to me. Zoeisright Mar 2013 #62

Excuse me? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #64

I support your decision to stay. pintobean Mar 2013 #77

I'm puzzled by a lot of these threads about why Catholics want to stay or don't want to leave. eallen Mar 2013 #75

Well speaking solely in my case.... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #79

Cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty... MellowDem Mar 2013 #87

Who is admitting it? Or are you just passing judgment? kwassa Mar 2013 #96

I don't understand your post... MellowDem Mar 2013 #100

No, it isn't. kwassa Mar 2013 #103

Why CAN'T you leave the Catholic Church? HockeyMom Mar 2013 #80

+ a million Apophis Mar 2013 #92

I never said YOU COULDN'T leave the Catholic Church. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #93

well said. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #150

One can still *be* Catholic without actually showing-up and putting money in the plate. Ian David Mar 2013 #81

A concept from the rule golden: Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #91

Thanks for the info. It's funny stuff you can miss despite being raised Catholic ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #97

whoa, WTF? jazzimov Mar 2013 #99

The liberal movement is about tolerance of certain sorts... MellowDem Mar 2013 #101

As a former Catholic customerserviceguy Mar 2013 #102

Just an addendum.... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #107

I remember when I briefly joined the Catholic church I had just had my second child liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #108

I'll admit what you say is true, but there's still one large thorn in the whole thing for me: ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #110

No woman will ever speak? Not true. We've heard nuns at two different Churches give homilies. pnwmom Mar 2013 #115

I'm happy to be wrong. Like I said I haven't gone to been to a Mass in a decade now ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #136

It depends on the church. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #122

Thanks for a great piece. You really describe the situation for progressive Catholics very well. n/t pnwmom Mar 2013 #113

I don't think anyone here xfundy Mar 2013 #117

Are you blind? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #123

An insinuation? OP says it is a demand made to you by many. Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #128

I left the Catholic Church some thirty years ago. bklyncowgirl Mar 2013 #119

Just like demanding someone you know leave the republican party..They have to come to it.. Tikki Mar 2013 #129

I really don't think you want to bring the Jesuits into this discussion.... OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #155

What? ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #158

LOL. "What" yourself. Keep looking. nt. OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #159

Uh, I also posted my link in that post ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #162

Yes, that's why I laughed. Here's my source.... OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #165

Interestingly enough, the book was published by Jack Chick. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #167

So what? What's your point? Is that all you have to attempt to discredit the author? nt. OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #168

Well, the author IS a kook. zappaman Mar 2013 #169

I prefer this one: Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #172

Based on the reviews, it seems as though it is heavily rooted in conspiracy theory and hearsay. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #170

LOL. Perhaps you should start with the author's sources in his footnotes.... OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #171

I'm going to be completely honest with you here.... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #173

Are you just going to be cryptic about it, or actually elaborate? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #160

Read my post #165. nt. OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #166

I have stayed out of this argument because I am not a Catholic and it is not my business. But when jwirr Mar 2013 #163

what you propose does not work in the real world. Take a look at ChairmanAgnostic Mar 2013 #164