General Discussion

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)

34. Environment, talent and poverty constrains our choices.

Reply to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 09:20 PM

Jun 2013

Choosing to be a doctor was an impractical choice for me, for all of the above reasons. Am I less free than the valedictorian at Overlake high school in Mercer Island? Sure.

Am I enslaved? Am I helpless? Do the remaining choices all equal coercion? I don't think so. Within the realm of choices available to me, I believe that I have agency over my life. Good decisions as well as bad.

I think there's a sexist element in this discussion. A grown woman who makes questionable choices is "forced", a grown man who makes questionable choices is stupid. "Of course he is going to rob the 7-11! His drug addiction left him no other choice!"

It's infantilizing.

It seems unrealistic to expect that society is going to stop the business through laws, and there are a lot of good arguments that the effort itself is harmful. I think the best you can hope for is to bring the trade partly into the daylight where we can get rid of the pimps.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

216 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

The unspoken issue at the center of prostitution is causation [View all] Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 OP

The Problem Of Causation Goes A Little Deeper, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #1

So you believe coercion can't be proven? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #3

That Depends, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #6

By the same token, the regulatory state doesn't care for the "freedom of contract' geek tragedy Jun 2013 #11

But The Point At Issue, Sir, Is Coercion, Not Freedom Of Contract The Magistrate Jun 2013 #16

In normative debates, it is perfectly acceptable to acknowledge the geek tragedy Jun 2013 #18

The Standard Urged, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #24

"both sacred and profane." DirkGently Jun 2013 #128

Tis the drawback, sir, of relying upon the Ayn Rand doctrine of morality geek tragedy Jun 2013 #147

Argument By Mad-Libs, Sir, Will Not Work On Me The Magistrate Jun 2013 #154

Sir, that was the entire crux of the Lochner decision, the notion that geek tragedy Jun 2013 #156

You Swing, And Miss, Sir, Again The Magistrate Jun 2013 #162

Sir, the person is believed by the very fact that no rape charges are pressed. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #166

You Are Not Holding Up Your End Well Enough, Sir, To Hold My Interest The Magistrate Jun 2013 #168

Your surrender is accepted with humility, sir., nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #171

And there it is! opiate69 Jun 2013 #173

No, the ideas were exchanged, it just turns out that the claim that geek tragedy Jun 2013 #175

Now That, Sir, Is Funny The Magistrate Jun 2013 #177

Par for the course, Magistrate... opiate69 Jun 2013 #181

Exceptionally well said, thank you eom freeplessinseattle Jun 2013 #40

It can't be proven be simply assuming it. DirkGently Jun 2013 #12

I didn't say that. I said addiction, poverty and criminals are coercive. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #17

Then address addiction, poverty, and criminals. DirkGently Jun 2013 #26

Men who exploit those in such circumstances need to be punished Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #29

What punishment do you plan for the Walton family? jeff47 Jun 2013 #73

Public shaming of the women, you mean. DirkGently Jun 2013 #129

See coal miners in KY. Yavin4 Jun 2013 #92

I don't think I could ever go down in a coal mine. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #215

The Nevada brothels are not good duffyduff Jun 2013 #67

Absolutely right! nt Tumbulu Jun 2013 #127

What percentage do you feel is coercive? Scootaloo Jun 2013 #66

We never need to overlook coercion. Will making criminals out of prostitutes help? DirkGently Jun 2013 #121

Yep, "who decides" whether someone has been coerced or compelled? bemildred Jun 2013 #4

And Particularly So, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #7

Okay, but then you want to assume what the "causation" is? DirkGently Jun 2013 #2

There is practically no connection between the two Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #5

If they're not connected, why do you oppose legalization ? DirkGently Jun 2013 #8

Look at the mainstreaming of porn. It has lead to an exponential geek tragedy Jun 2013 #13

That, Sir, Is A Reinhart & Rogoff Style Analysis The Magistrate Jun 2013 #21

Pornographers disagree with you. redqueen Jun 2013 #25

And I Strongly Disagree, Ma'am The Magistrate Jun 2013 #33

Search for it. Compare and contrast. redqueen Jun 2013 #37

That, Ma'am, Is Hardly The Only Element Referenced The Magistrate Jun 2013 #39

Exactly, Sir. opiate69 Jun 2013 #125

I salute you, Sir, for stamina, skill, and other virtues I would not presume to enumerate. enough Jun 2013 #36

Vanilla porn is a dying industry, sir. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #145

Faulty memory, sir. opiate69 Jun 2013 #148

Was "A2M" a genre back in the day? nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #150

There were few specific "genres" such as that back on the day.. opiate69 Jun 2013 #155

You Are Simply Wrong, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #157

Sir, the example was illustrative. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #158

Not Just Mere Special Pleading On Your Part, Sir, But A Poor Job Even Of That The Magistrate Jun 2013 #163

Sir, I have no advocated banning said practices or their portrayal geek tragedy Jun 2013 #170

Many Do Suppose Their 'Ick...' To Be Moral Absolute, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #174

Sir, I believe your argument was incomplete, in that in addition to lumping geek tragedy Jun 2013 #178

You Are Indeed, Sir, Working In A Long Tradition.... The Magistrate Jun 2013 #180

Sir, we simply disagree as to whether criticizing degradation and misogyny geek tragedy Jun 2013 #182

No, Sir: You Make It Obvious You Use His Tactics The Magistrate Jun 2013 #183

Sir, I did not think you capable of this great of a fail. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #184

I Am Capable Of a Great Deal You Probably Do Not Suspect, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #185

Sir, tis true that I choose not to turn a blind eye geek tragedy Jun 2013 #186

Therefore banning porn would eliminate exploitation? DirkGently Jun 2013 #30

Banning porn is a nonstarter for any number of reasons, the Internet geek tragedy Jun 2013 #146

The utopian safe, clean, regulated, even unionized blah, blah, blah brothels Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #14

Too add on to your prediction MattBaggins Jun 2013 #32

Depends how you legalize it. jeff47 Jun 2013 #81

You can say THAT again, Walt. Honeycombe8 Jun 2013 #9

What little girl dreams of working at Wal-Mart or McDonalds? jeff47 Jun 2013 #83

That's ridiculous. nt Honeycombe8 Jun 2013 #195

Then explain how it's different. jeff47 Jun 2013 #197

Prohibition of consentual adult activity has never worked Major Nikon Jun 2013 #10

to ignore the circumstances that deliver individuals to the sex trade is abhorrent Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #19

Your argument is little more than an emotional one Major Nikon Jun 2013 #22

If something is exploitative, why the hell would you legalize it? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #31

If something is not exploitative, why the hell would you illegalize it? Major Nikon Jun 2013 #46

Are you willing to err on the side of it being universally unexploitive? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #49

I'm pretty sure the current approach is not working Major Nikon Jun 2013 #52

Is the current approach to armed robbery working? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #53

If the aim is to eliminate robbery, then emphatically, no, it's not working opiate69 Jun 2013 #78

so, given that robbery can't be eliminated, should it them be unpunished? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #89

Of course not. opiate69 Jun 2013 #93

Robbery is consensual? (nt) jeff47 Jun 2013 #85

Is "I need to do this for my next hit" actually consensual? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #87

Well, every day I say "I need to do this to feed my family". jeff47 Jun 2013 #97

Can you direct me to the pig farm with a mass grave of Java developers? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #126

If you think the potential danger is the reason to ban it jeff47 Jun 2013 #141

and you think the archetypical street walker is going to find work in a brothel? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #153

Why not? jeff47 Jun 2013 #161

"where do you think "legal" brothels in Europe get their women? Accountemps?" redqueen Jun 2013 #27

They only acknowledge what is convenient to either they personal ends or permissive ideology. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #35

You raise a good point Major Nikon Jun 2013 #42

Given the whole Tyrell Replicant business didn't really work out... Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #44

The sex industry actually emcompasses millions of workers Major Nikon Jun 2013 #50

So why go to the trouble of trafficking? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #55

Surely It is Not All Foreigners Involved In The Evil, Sir? The Magistrate Jun 2013 #59

Absolutely there are, but why go to the trouble? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #61

Yet You Went Directly To The Swarthy And the Yellow, Sir.... The Magistrate Jun 2013 #65

I think you have missed the point, Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #69

You Seem To Have Missed A Thing Or Three As Well, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #70

Dark outsiders? Purity? I think I have missed more than that. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #75

Again, Sir: The Subject 'Makes You Lose Your Shit' As You Said Above The Magistrate Jun 2013 #79

Why not answer the question instead, Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #82

Your Thought Processes Here Interest Me, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #84

My Thought Processes? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #88

The Reference To Toes Escapes Me, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #91

You are just hilarious when you are stumped, Sir. bettyellen Jun 2013 #211

It's a distraction. redqueen Jun 2013 #77

Is that maybe because we make it a criminal offense joeglow3 Jun 2013 #167

The "abortion 'industry'"?!?!?!?! redqueen Jun 2013 #189

Yes. I used that term on purpose. joeglow3 Jun 2013 #193

For the same reasons non sex workers are trafficked I reckon Major Nikon Jun 2013 #68

Ofcourse most of them are American, but still - why bother? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #71

So far your line seems to be status quo Major Nikon Jun 2013 #98

If "victimizing by force of law" means arrested men who patronize prostitutes... Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #122

Evidently you don't think it's possible for the transaction to be consensual Major Nikon Jun 2013 #131

If you want to try hanging that around my certified Dudebro™ neck, go for it. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #133

I understood you to say that prostitution = rape Major Nikon Jun 2013 #135

I don't think that statement is obtuse, Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #136

It's either consensual or it isn't Major Nikon Jun 2013 #137

and I believe a sex act performed out of addiction, poverty or criminality isn't. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #152

Then you believe it is rape Major Nikon Jun 2013 #176

And this is different from statutory rape how exactly? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #198

Thanks for hanging that on my dudeneck Major Nikon Jun 2013 #199

I said no such thing, I think this is mostly ideological Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #200

Evidently your definition of consent takes on different meanings depending on context Major Nikon Jun 2013 #201

Many things take on different meanings depending on context Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #202

In this case, only to the subliterate Major Nikon Jun 2013 #203

Suggest that defense to whats-her-face in Florida Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #204

... Major Nikon Jun 2013 #205

Where is the logical fallacy? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #206

I'm not going to debate nonsense Major Nikon Jun 2013 #207

So the idea that consent is subject to context is nonsense to you? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #208

The word "consent" has one meaning to those who are fully literate Major Nikon Jun 2013 #209

If you want to feign ignorance, more power to you. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #210

You failed to mention exactly the alleged ignorance I was alleged to have feigned Major Nikon Jun 2013 #212

You seem ignorant of the fact the dictionary is not the penal code of any land Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #213

Now you're just being disingenuous Major Nikon Jun 2013 #216

It's not an "industry." treestar Jun 2013 #105

If my job stopped paying me tomorrow, I wouldn't show up for work Major Nikon Jun 2013 #114

Then there should be no problem with people choosing to go down into treestar Jun 2013 #116

If one ignores the false dichotomy you just presented... Major Nikon Jun 2013 #118

Where do you think Wal-Mart and McDonalds get their employees? jeff47 Jun 2013 #86

Do you believe the construction industry should be shut down? brooklynite Jun 2013 #15

Reductio ad absurdum Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #20

But It Is Not Absurd, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #38

It is completely absurd, Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #43

Unfortunately, Sir, You Are Wrong The Magistrate Jun 2013 #47

The only fallacies here are yours and others false equivalencies Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #51

The Subject 'Makes You Lose Your Shit', Sir, As You Said Above The Magistrate Jun 2013 #54

Forgive me, I react strongly to enablers of sexual exploitation. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #56

Sounds Like Answering One Of Those 'What Is Your Biggest Flaw?' Questions At A Job Interview, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #58

It probably would come across better than "I talk like Rumpole of the Bailey" Sir... Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #60

I Doubt It, Sir.... The Magistrate Jun 2013 #62

How do you define "employment" joeglow3 Jun 2013 #165

They are making buildings useful to society treestar Jun 2013 #106

The massive number of prostitutes would imply the same jeff47 Jun 2013 #111

The constant refrain that it's always been around is a pathetic dodge. redqueen Jun 2013 #23

I live somewhere where it's legal and that's not true Violet_Crumble Jun 2013 #64

Your claims sound very much like those made before the UK prostitution sweep in 2002-ish. jeff47 Jun 2013 #94

K&R MotherPetrie Jun 2013 #28

Environment, talent and poverty constrains our choices. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2013 #34

Now that is a big leap, Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #41

Many people's circumstances and conditions constrain their choices to an even greater degree than me lumberjack_jeff Jun 2013 #48

So, if one of your students or patients ends up on the street and in that position Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #57

My participants make their own choices. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2013 #74

You lost me at "libertine". backscatter712 Jun 2013 #45

+1 Le Taz Hot Jun 2013 #139

I can only quote Justice Potter Stewart - I know it when I see it riderinthestorm Jun 2013 #63

According to your argument, I am coerced to go to work every day. jeff47 Jun 2013 #72

People on welfare are required to search for work gollygee Jun 2013 #76

They are required to search, they don't have to accept any offer. jeff47 Jun 2013 #96

omg treestar Jun 2013 #101

And not everyone would rank those above "making enough money to eat". jeff47 Jun 2013 #103

Allowed? treestar Jun 2013 #104

Even with a safety net, people will select that profession jeff47 Jun 2013 #108

Because it's dangerous treestar Jun 2013 #115

So are a ton of other jobs. jeff47 Jun 2013 #142

And we try to make coal mining illegal, don't we? treestar Jun 2013 #143

All of the problems you cite would be reduced by legalization. jeff47 Jun 2013 #144

Why? Is sex itself inherently degrading? opiate69 Jun 2013 #109

Selling it to strangers is wonderful? treestar Jun 2013 #113

Oh, I'm sure there's a difference.. opiate69 Jun 2013 #117

It doesn't have to do with any prudery treestar Jun 2013 #119

OK, so it's the financial component that makes it exploitative... opiate69 Jun 2013 #120

It's so personal treestar Jun 2013 #138

Because we don't see a difference. LadyHawkAZ Jun 2013 #159

As usual, my dear LadyHawk, you say what I was trying to, exponentially better! opiate69 Jun 2013 #172

Because not everyone shares your values joeglow3 Jun 2013 #164

we currently have a military draft, it's just economic markiv Jun 2013 #80

"that some tragic series of events probably delivered a given individual to the sex trade." Yavin4 Jun 2013 #90

Very well said. And to all those equating prostitution and working at Walmart, Squinch Jun 2013 #95

Then explain it. jeff47 Jun 2013 #99

Are you still out there kidding yourself? Squinch Jun 2013 #188

So your goal is just to insult then? jeff47 Jun 2013 #196

Well ok then, LadyHawkAZ Jun 2013 #192

Having read through this, it seems some actual facts are in order Benton D Struckcheon Jun 2013 #100

Facts would be nice... opiate69 Jun 2013 #107

Hmm. Lemme see if I've got this straight. Benton D Struckcheon Jun 2013 #190

Oh, so my numbers are a "low end"... opiate69 Jun 2013 #194

Yeah, it'll never be convincing that it is actually a free choice of profession treestar Jun 2013 #102

Psst. Some prostitutes are men. (nt) jeff47 Jun 2013 #110

Them too. treestar Jun 2013 #112

"the absence of all coercion" = no such thing. to live in the wild is to live under coercion, & to HiPointDem Jun 2013 #123

You never took philosophy did you, Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #124

why don't you just address the post with your philosophy HiPointDem Jun 2013 #134

This is true. Legalization carries a LOT of potential problems Canuckistanian Jun 2013 #130

The whole point of legalization, be it of drugs, or of prostitution, is harm reduction. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #149

The only thing creepy here is the voyeuristic obsession with LittleBlue Jun 2013 #132

I saw something nasty in the woodshed! Safetykitten Jun 2013 #140

Good question. The authoritarianism is leaving a hell of a stench! backscatter712 Jun 2013 #151

Your body, your choice. Period. The Straight Story Jun 2013 #160

We live in a capitalist society where everything is for sale except sex Taverner Jun 2013 #169

I do hear you Skittles Jun 2013 #179

People keep analogizing the sex trade to the drug trade. redqueen Jun 2013 #187

Demand is ALREADY criminalized. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #214

Texas delivers justice Benton D Struckcheon Jun 2013 #191