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treestar

(82,383 posts)

138. It's so personal

Reply to opiate69 (Reply #120)

Thu Jun 6, 2013, 09:15 AM

Jun 2013

Involves one's body in a really personal way.

How is it possible not to see the difference?

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The unspoken issue at the center of prostitution is causation [View all] Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 OP

The Problem Of Causation Goes A Little Deeper, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #1

So you believe coercion can't be proven? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #3

That Depends, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #6

By the same token, the regulatory state doesn't care for the "freedom of contract' geek tragedy Jun 2013 #11

But The Point At Issue, Sir, Is Coercion, Not Freedom Of Contract The Magistrate Jun 2013 #16

In normative debates, it is perfectly acceptable to acknowledge the geek tragedy Jun 2013 #18

The Standard Urged, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #24

"both sacred and profane." DirkGently Jun 2013 #128

Tis the drawback, sir, of relying upon the Ayn Rand doctrine of morality geek tragedy Jun 2013 #147

Argument By Mad-Libs, Sir, Will Not Work On Me The Magistrate Jun 2013 #154

Sir, that was the entire crux of the Lochner decision, the notion that geek tragedy Jun 2013 #156

You Swing, And Miss, Sir, Again The Magistrate Jun 2013 #162

Sir, the person is believed by the very fact that no rape charges are pressed. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #166

You Are Not Holding Up Your End Well Enough, Sir, To Hold My Interest The Magistrate Jun 2013 #168

Your surrender is accepted with humility, sir., nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #171

And there it is! opiate69 Jun 2013 #173

No, the ideas were exchanged, it just turns out that the claim that geek tragedy Jun 2013 #175

Now That, Sir, Is Funny The Magistrate Jun 2013 #177

Par for the course, Magistrate... opiate69 Jun 2013 #181

Exceptionally well said, thank you eom freeplessinseattle Jun 2013 #40

It can't be proven be simply assuming it. DirkGently Jun 2013 #12

I didn't say that. I said addiction, poverty and criminals are coercive. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #17

Then address addiction, poverty, and criminals. DirkGently Jun 2013 #26

Men who exploit those in such circumstances need to be punished Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #29

What punishment do you plan for the Walton family? jeff47 Jun 2013 #73

Public shaming of the women, you mean. DirkGently Jun 2013 #129

See coal miners in KY. Yavin4 Jun 2013 #92

I don't think I could ever go down in a coal mine. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #215

The Nevada brothels are not good duffyduff Jun 2013 #67

Absolutely right! nt Tumbulu Jun 2013 #127

What percentage do you feel is coercive? Scootaloo Jun 2013 #66

We never need to overlook coercion. Will making criminals out of prostitutes help? DirkGently Jun 2013 #121

Yep, "who decides" whether someone has been coerced or compelled? bemildred Jun 2013 #4

And Particularly So, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #7

Okay, but then you want to assume what the "causation" is? DirkGently Jun 2013 #2

There is practically no connection between the two Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #5

If they're not connected, why do you oppose legalization ? DirkGently Jun 2013 #8

Look at the mainstreaming of porn. It has lead to an exponential geek tragedy Jun 2013 #13

That, Sir, Is A Reinhart & Rogoff Style Analysis The Magistrate Jun 2013 #21

Pornographers disagree with you. redqueen Jun 2013 #25

And I Strongly Disagree, Ma'am The Magistrate Jun 2013 #33

Search for it. Compare and contrast. redqueen Jun 2013 #37

That, Ma'am, Is Hardly The Only Element Referenced The Magistrate Jun 2013 #39

Exactly, Sir. opiate69 Jun 2013 #125

I salute you, Sir, for stamina, skill, and other virtues I would not presume to enumerate. enough Jun 2013 #36

Vanilla porn is a dying industry, sir. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #145

Faulty memory, sir. opiate69 Jun 2013 #148

Was "A2M" a genre back in the day? nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #150

There were few specific "genres" such as that back on the day.. opiate69 Jun 2013 #155

You Are Simply Wrong, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #157

Sir, the example was illustrative. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #158

Not Just Mere Special Pleading On Your Part, Sir, But A Poor Job Even Of That The Magistrate Jun 2013 #163

Sir, I have no advocated banning said practices or their portrayal geek tragedy Jun 2013 #170

Many Do Suppose Their 'Ick...' To Be Moral Absolute, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #174

Sir, I believe your argument was incomplete, in that in addition to lumping geek tragedy Jun 2013 #178

You Are Indeed, Sir, Working In A Long Tradition.... The Magistrate Jun 2013 #180

Sir, we simply disagree as to whether criticizing degradation and misogyny geek tragedy Jun 2013 #182

No, Sir: You Make It Obvious You Use His Tactics The Magistrate Jun 2013 #183

Sir, I did not think you capable of this great of a fail. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #184

I Am Capable Of a Great Deal You Probably Do Not Suspect, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #185

Sir, tis true that I choose not to turn a blind eye geek tragedy Jun 2013 #186

Therefore banning porn would eliminate exploitation? DirkGently Jun 2013 #30

Banning porn is a nonstarter for any number of reasons, the Internet geek tragedy Jun 2013 #146

The utopian safe, clean, regulated, even unionized blah, blah, blah brothels Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #14

Too add on to your prediction MattBaggins Jun 2013 #32

Depends how you legalize it. jeff47 Jun 2013 #81

You can say THAT again, Walt. Honeycombe8 Jun 2013 #9

What little girl dreams of working at Wal-Mart or McDonalds? jeff47 Jun 2013 #83

That's ridiculous. nt Honeycombe8 Jun 2013 #195

Then explain how it's different. jeff47 Jun 2013 #197

Prohibition of consentual adult activity has never worked Major Nikon Jun 2013 #10

to ignore the circumstances that deliver individuals to the sex trade is abhorrent Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #19

Your argument is little more than an emotional one Major Nikon Jun 2013 #22

If something is exploitative, why the hell would you legalize it? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #31

If something is not exploitative, why the hell would you illegalize it? Major Nikon Jun 2013 #46

Are you willing to err on the side of it being universally unexploitive? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #49

I'm pretty sure the current approach is not working Major Nikon Jun 2013 #52

Is the current approach to armed robbery working? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #53

If the aim is to eliminate robbery, then emphatically, no, it's not working opiate69 Jun 2013 #78

so, given that robbery can't be eliminated, should it them be unpunished? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #89

Of course not. opiate69 Jun 2013 #93

Robbery is consensual? (nt) jeff47 Jun 2013 #85

Is "I need to do this for my next hit" actually consensual? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #87

Well, every day I say "I need to do this to feed my family". jeff47 Jun 2013 #97

Can you direct me to the pig farm with a mass grave of Java developers? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #126

If you think the potential danger is the reason to ban it jeff47 Jun 2013 #141

and you think the archetypical street walker is going to find work in a brothel? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #153

Why not? jeff47 Jun 2013 #161

"where do you think "legal" brothels in Europe get their women? Accountemps?" redqueen Jun 2013 #27

They only acknowledge what is convenient to either they personal ends or permissive ideology. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #35

You raise a good point Major Nikon Jun 2013 #42

Given the whole Tyrell Replicant business didn't really work out... Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #44

The sex industry actually emcompasses millions of workers Major Nikon Jun 2013 #50

So why go to the trouble of trafficking? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #55

Surely It is Not All Foreigners Involved In The Evil, Sir? The Magistrate Jun 2013 #59

Absolutely there are, but why go to the trouble? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #61

Yet You Went Directly To The Swarthy And the Yellow, Sir.... The Magistrate Jun 2013 #65

I think you have missed the point, Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #69

You Seem To Have Missed A Thing Or Three As Well, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #70

Dark outsiders? Purity? I think I have missed more than that. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #75

Again, Sir: The Subject 'Makes You Lose Your Shit' As You Said Above The Magistrate Jun 2013 #79

Why not answer the question instead, Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #82

Your Thought Processes Here Interest Me, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #84

My Thought Processes? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #88

The Reference To Toes Escapes Me, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #91

You are just hilarious when you are stumped, Sir. bettyellen Jun 2013 #211

It's a distraction. redqueen Jun 2013 #77

Is that maybe because we make it a criminal offense joeglow3 Jun 2013 #167

The "abortion 'industry'"?!?!?!?! redqueen Jun 2013 #189

Yes. I used that term on purpose. joeglow3 Jun 2013 #193

For the same reasons non sex workers are trafficked I reckon Major Nikon Jun 2013 #68

Ofcourse most of them are American, but still - why bother? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #71

So far your line seems to be status quo Major Nikon Jun 2013 #98

If "victimizing by force of law" means arrested men who patronize prostitutes... Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #122

Evidently you don't think it's possible for the transaction to be consensual Major Nikon Jun 2013 #131

If you want to try hanging that around my certified Dudebro™ neck, go for it. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #133

I understood you to say that prostitution = rape Major Nikon Jun 2013 #135

I don't think that statement is obtuse, Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #136

It's either consensual or it isn't Major Nikon Jun 2013 #137

and I believe a sex act performed out of addiction, poverty or criminality isn't. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #152

Then you believe it is rape Major Nikon Jun 2013 #176

And this is different from statutory rape how exactly? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #198

Thanks for hanging that on my dudeneck Major Nikon Jun 2013 #199

I said no such thing, I think this is mostly ideological Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #200

Evidently your definition of consent takes on different meanings depending on context Major Nikon Jun 2013 #201

Many things take on different meanings depending on context Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #202

In this case, only to the subliterate Major Nikon Jun 2013 #203

Suggest that defense to whats-her-face in Florida Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #204

... Major Nikon Jun 2013 #205

Where is the logical fallacy? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #206

I'm not going to debate nonsense Major Nikon Jun 2013 #207

So the idea that consent is subject to context is nonsense to you? Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #208

The word "consent" has one meaning to those who are fully literate Major Nikon Jun 2013 #209

If you want to feign ignorance, more power to you. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #210

You failed to mention exactly the alleged ignorance I was alleged to have feigned Major Nikon Jun 2013 #212

You seem ignorant of the fact the dictionary is not the penal code of any land Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #213

Now you're just being disingenuous Major Nikon Jun 2013 #216

It's not an "industry." treestar Jun 2013 #105

If my job stopped paying me tomorrow, I wouldn't show up for work Major Nikon Jun 2013 #114

Then there should be no problem with people choosing to go down into treestar Jun 2013 #116

If one ignores the false dichotomy you just presented... Major Nikon Jun 2013 #118

Where do you think Wal-Mart and McDonalds get their employees? jeff47 Jun 2013 #86

Do you believe the construction industry should be shut down? brooklynite Jun 2013 #15

Reductio ad absurdum Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #20

But It Is Not Absurd, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #38

It is completely absurd, Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #43

Unfortunately, Sir, You Are Wrong The Magistrate Jun 2013 #47

The only fallacies here are yours and others false equivalencies Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #51

The Subject 'Makes You Lose Your Shit', Sir, As You Said Above The Magistrate Jun 2013 #54

Forgive me, I react strongly to enablers of sexual exploitation. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #56

Sounds Like Answering One Of Those 'What Is Your Biggest Flaw?' Questions At A Job Interview, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2013 #58

It probably would come across better than "I talk like Rumpole of the Bailey" Sir... Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #60

I Doubt It, Sir.... The Magistrate Jun 2013 #62

How do you define "employment" joeglow3 Jun 2013 #165

They are making buildings useful to society treestar Jun 2013 #106

The massive number of prostitutes would imply the same jeff47 Jun 2013 #111

The constant refrain that it's always been around is a pathetic dodge. redqueen Jun 2013 #23

I live somewhere where it's legal and that's not true Violet_Crumble Jun 2013 #64

Your claims sound very much like those made before the UK prostitution sweep in 2002-ish. jeff47 Jun 2013 #94

K&R MotherPetrie Jun 2013 #28

Environment, talent and poverty constrains our choices. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2013 #34

Now that is a big leap, Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #41

Many people's circumstances and conditions constrain their choices to an even greater degree than me lumberjack_jeff Jun 2013 #48

So, if one of your students or patients ends up on the street and in that position Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #57

My participants make their own choices. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2013 #74

You lost me at "libertine". backscatter712 Jun 2013 #45

+1 Le Taz Hot Jun 2013 #139

I can only quote Justice Potter Stewart - I know it when I see it riderinthestorm Jun 2013 #63

According to your argument, I am coerced to go to work every day. jeff47 Jun 2013 #72

People on welfare are required to search for work gollygee Jun 2013 #76

They are required to search, they don't have to accept any offer. jeff47 Jun 2013 #96

omg treestar Jun 2013 #101

And not everyone would rank those above "making enough money to eat". jeff47 Jun 2013 #103

Allowed? treestar Jun 2013 #104

Even with a safety net, people will select that profession jeff47 Jun 2013 #108

Because it's dangerous treestar Jun 2013 #115

So are a ton of other jobs. jeff47 Jun 2013 #142

And we try to make coal mining illegal, don't we? treestar Jun 2013 #143

All of the problems you cite would be reduced by legalization. jeff47 Jun 2013 #144

Why? Is sex itself inherently degrading? opiate69 Jun 2013 #109

Selling it to strangers is wonderful? treestar Jun 2013 #113

Oh, I'm sure there's a difference.. opiate69 Jun 2013 #117

It doesn't have to do with any prudery treestar Jun 2013 #119

OK, so it's the financial component that makes it exploitative... opiate69 Jun 2013 #120

It's so personal treestar Jun 2013 #138

Because we don't see a difference. LadyHawkAZ Jun 2013 #159

As usual, my dear LadyHawk, you say what I was trying to, exponentially better! opiate69 Jun 2013 #172

Because not everyone shares your values joeglow3 Jun 2013 #164

we currently have a military draft, it's just economic markiv Jun 2013 #80

"that some tragic series of events probably delivered a given individual to the sex trade." Yavin4 Jun 2013 #90

Very well said. And to all those equating prostitution and working at Walmart, Squinch Jun 2013 #95

Then explain it. jeff47 Jun 2013 #99

Are you still out there kidding yourself? Squinch Jun 2013 #188

So your goal is just to insult then? jeff47 Jun 2013 #196

Well ok then, LadyHawkAZ Jun 2013 #192

Having read through this, it seems some actual facts are in order Benton D Struckcheon Jun 2013 #100

Facts would be nice... opiate69 Jun 2013 #107

Hmm. Lemme see if I've got this straight. Benton D Struckcheon Jun 2013 #190

Oh, so my numbers are a "low end"... opiate69 Jun 2013 #194

Yeah, it'll never be convincing that it is actually a free choice of profession treestar Jun 2013 #102

Psst. Some prostitutes are men. (nt) jeff47 Jun 2013 #110

Them too. treestar Jun 2013 #112

"the absence of all coercion" = no such thing. to live in the wild is to live under coercion, & to HiPointDem Jun 2013 #123

You never took philosophy did you, Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2013 #124

why don't you just address the post with your philosophy HiPointDem Jun 2013 #134

This is true. Legalization carries a LOT of potential problems Canuckistanian Jun 2013 #130

The whole point of legalization, be it of drugs, or of prostitution, is harm reduction. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #149

The only thing creepy here is the voyeuristic obsession with LittleBlue Jun 2013 #132

I saw something nasty in the woodshed! Safetykitten Jun 2013 #140

Good question. The authoritarianism is leaving a hell of a stench! backscatter712 Jun 2013 #151

Your body, your choice. Period. The Straight Story Jun 2013 #160

We live in a capitalist society where everything is for sale except sex Taverner Jun 2013 #169

I do hear you Skittles Jun 2013 #179

People keep analogizing the sex trade to the drug trade. redqueen Jun 2013 #187

Demand is ALREADY criminalized. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #214

Texas delivers justice Benton D Struckcheon Jun 2013 #191