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In reply to the discussion: Secret law is not law. It is a fundamental breach of the social contract . [View all]Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)54. Here is an article in from Dr. Anthony Clark Arend of Georgetown University
who argues against this interpretation:
http://blogs.georgetown.edu/?id=12001
So, does the case law indicate that the President would have the Constitutional authority to conduct such warrantless surveillance?
Lower court decisions seem to suggest that the answer is in the affirmative. But there are several very important caveats:
First, the Supreme Court still has not ruled on the question.
Second, Truong related to surveillance that took place before FISA was adopted, even though the case was decided after FISA went into effect.
Third, while the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review indicated that it took "for granted" that the President has the authority to conduct such searches, that statement seems to be dicta and not part of the actual holding of the case.
Finally, even assuming for argument's sake that the President does have the authority under certain circumstances to conduct warrantless surveillance in response to a threat posed by a foreign power or the agent of a foreign power, such surveillance would still need to meet the "reasonableness requirement" of the Fourth Amendment. Given that FISA establishes a fast and secret procedure that the Executive Branch can use to obtain court orders to conduct surveillance against foreign powers and their agents, and given that FISA even allows for retroactive approval of surveillance if time were truly of the essence, would it be "reasonable" for the President to act outside that framework? The reasonableness question is especially critical in the present controversy because this action does not seem to be a one-time surveillance that needed to be undertaken at a moment's notice, but rather a long program that required numerous re-authorizations.
This seems to jibe with my layman's understanding of the situation.
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Secret law is not law. It is a fundamental breach of the social contract . [View all]
kpete
Jul 2013
OP
yeah, but most Americans are too fat and happy in their illusions that they actually matter
Nanjing to Seoul
Jul 2013
#2
Most Americans are in various stages of denial making it easy for the tyrants. nm
rhett o rick
Jul 2013
#8
No, it isn't a plebiscite on every law, but in a representative democracy a law has to be known.
enough
Jul 2013
#7
this is one point that I don't understand about the surveillance state debate....
mike_c
Jul 2013
#4
Yes, many people live in total deniablity, thinking that the authoritarian state will
rhett o rick
Jul 2013
#69
As Ron Wyden has said, 'if the people knew how they are using the law they would be
sabrina 1
Jul 2013
#5
It should be noted that those decisions were made in a vastly different world.
Romulus Quirinus
Jul 2013
#19
I assume that you are arguing in good faith. I would appreciate it if you would do the same for me.
Romulus Quirinus
Jul 2013
#49
You do realize that this isn't the opinion of the court, but a quote from the amicae curiae brief
Romulus Quirinus
Jul 2013
#52
Here is an article in from Dr. Anthony Clark Arend of Georgetown University
Romulus Quirinus
Jul 2013
#54
According to the ACLU, it is the USA PATRIOT act which enables this level of surveillance, rather
Romulus Quirinus
Jul 2013
#56
Again I have to ask: why do some here trust 10 Repub judges to secretly define privacy?
magellan
Jul 2013
#13
It's debatable if you can even call it "law." It certainly isn't legal, no matter how the courts
leveymg
Jul 2013
#31
The rulings and interpretations are the substance of the law, the statute is just black letter
leveymg
Jul 2013
#66
No. Records are rarely sealed, except in FISA/nat'l security, and some civil cases by agreement.
leveymg
Jul 2013
#77
It appears Obama does not agree and is fighting to keep mysterious redefinitions of our law secret.
Dragonfli
Jul 2013
#58
But it sound like either the whole House or Senate is required to vote on it...
kentuck
Jul 2013
#75