Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
Editorials & Other Articles
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
General Discussion
In reply to the discussion: Remember the old Soviet Union? [View all]DevonRex
(22,541 posts)140. She said the Soviet Union. Stalin alone murdered MILLIONS in gulags.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Calculating_the_number_of_victims
Calculating the number of victims
Before the 1991 dissolution of the Soviet Union, researchers who attempted to count the number of people killed under Stalin's regime produced estimates ranging from 3 to 60 million.[111] After the Soviet Union dissolved, evidence from the Soviet archives also became available, containing official records of 799,455 executions 1921-53,[112] around 1.7 million deaths in the Gulags and some 390,000 deaths during kulak forced resettlement with a total of about 3 million officially recorded victims in these categories.[113]
Photo from 1943 exhumation of mass grave of Polish officers killed by NKVD in Katyń Forest in 1940.
The official Soviet archival records do not contain comprehensive figures for some categories of victims, such as those of ethnic deportations or of German population transfers in the aftermath of World War II.[114] Eric D. Weitz wrote, "By 1948, according to Nicolas Werth, the mortality rate of the 600,000 people deported from the Caucasus between 1943 and 1944 had reached 25%."[115][116] Other notable exclusions from NKVD data on repression deaths include the Katyn massacre, other killings in the newly occupied areas, and the mass shootings of Red Army personnel (deserters and so-called deserters) in 1941. The Soviets executed 158,000 soldiers for desertion during the war,[117] and the "blocking detachments" of the NKVD shot thousands more.[118] Also, the official statistics on Gulag mortality exclude deaths of prisoners taking place shortly after their release but which resulted from the harsh treatment in the camps.[119] Some historians also believe that the official archival figures of the categories that were recorded by Soviet authorities are unreliable and incomplete.[120][121] In addition to failures regarding comprehensive recordings, as one additional example, Robert Gellately and Simon Sebag Montefiore argue that the many suspects beaten and tortured to death while in "investigative custody" were likely not to have been counted amongst the executed.[39][122]
Historians working after the Soviet Union's dissolution have estimated victim totals ranging from approximately 4 million to nearly 10 million, not including those who died in famines.[123][124][125] Russian writer Vadim Erlikman, for example, makes the following estimates: executions, 1.5 million; gulags, 5 million; deportations, 1.7 million out of 7.5 million deported; and POWs and German civilians, 1 million a total of about 9 million victims of repression.[126]
Some have also included the deaths of 6 to 8 million people in the 19321933 famine among the victims of Stalin's repression. This categorization is controversial however, as historians differ as to whether the famine was a deliberate part of the campaign of repression against kulaks and others,[68][127][128][129][130] or simply an unintended consequence of the struggle over forced collectivization.[84][131][132]
Accordingly, if famine victims are included, a minimum of around 10 million deaths6 million from famine and 4 million from other causesare attributable to the regime,[133] with a number of recent historians suggesting a likely total of around 20 million, citing much higher victim totals from executions, gulags, deportations and other causes.[134][135][136][137][138][139][140] Adding 68 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a total of between 15 and 17 million victims. Researcher Robert Conquest, meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million.[141] In his most recent edition of The Great Terror (2007), Conquest states that while exact numbers may never be known with complete certainty, the various terror campaigns launched by the Soviet government claimed no fewer than 15 million lives.[142] Others maintain that their earlier higher victim total estimates are correct.[143][144]
Calculating the number of victims
Before the 1991 dissolution of the Soviet Union, researchers who attempted to count the number of people killed under Stalin's regime produced estimates ranging from 3 to 60 million.[111] After the Soviet Union dissolved, evidence from the Soviet archives also became available, containing official records of 799,455 executions 1921-53,[112] around 1.7 million deaths in the Gulags and some 390,000 deaths during kulak forced resettlement with a total of about 3 million officially recorded victims in these categories.[113]
Photo from 1943 exhumation of mass grave of Polish officers killed by NKVD in Katyń Forest in 1940.
The official Soviet archival records do not contain comprehensive figures for some categories of victims, such as those of ethnic deportations or of German population transfers in the aftermath of World War II.[114] Eric D. Weitz wrote, "By 1948, according to Nicolas Werth, the mortality rate of the 600,000 people deported from the Caucasus between 1943 and 1944 had reached 25%."[115][116] Other notable exclusions from NKVD data on repression deaths include the Katyn massacre, other killings in the newly occupied areas, and the mass shootings of Red Army personnel (deserters and so-called deserters) in 1941. The Soviets executed 158,000 soldiers for desertion during the war,[117] and the "blocking detachments" of the NKVD shot thousands more.[118] Also, the official statistics on Gulag mortality exclude deaths of prisoners taking place shortly after their release but which resulted from the harsh treatment in the camps.[119] Some historians also believe that the official archival figures of the categories that were recorded by Soviet authorities are unreliable and incomplete.[120][121] In addition to failures regarding comprehensive recordings, as one additional example, Robert Gellately and Simon Sebag Montefiore argue that the many suspects beaten and tortured to death while in "investigative custody" were likely not to have been counted amongst the executed.[39][122]
Historians working after the Soviet Union's dissolution have estimated victim totals ranging from approximately 4 million to nearly 10 million, not including those who died in famines.[123][124][125] Russian writer Vadim Erlikman, for example, makes the following estimates: executions, 1.5 million; gulags, 5 million; deportations, 1.7 million out of 7.5 million deported; and POWs and German civilians, 1 million a total of about 9 million victims of repression.[126]
Some have also included the deaths of 6 to 8 million people in the 19321933 famine among the victims of Stalin's repression. This categorization is controversial however, as historians differ as to whether the famine was a deliberate part of the campaign of repression against kulaks and others,[68][127][128][129][130] or simply an unintended consequence of the struggle over forced collectivization.[84][131][132]
Accordingly, if famine victims are included, a minimum of around 10 million deaths6 million from famine and 4 million from other causesare attributable to the regime,[133] with a number of recent historians suggesting a likely total of around 20 million, citing much higher victim totals from executions, gulags, deportations and other causes.[134][135][136][137][138][139][140] Adding 68 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a total of between 15 and 17 million victims. Researcher Robert Conquest, meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million.[141] In his most recent edition of The Great Terror (2007), Conquest states that while exact numbers may never be known with complete certainty, the various terror campaigns launched by the Soviet government claimed no fewer than 15 million lives.[142] Others maintain that their earlier higher victim total estimates are correct.[143][144]
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
Recommendations
0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):
179 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
You mean when the government was keeping dossiers on nuns who were for (gasp) peace?
Spitfire of ATJ
Jul 2013
#161
"we need passports to go to Canada" as opposed to being SHOT for trying to leave the USSR.
geek tragedy
Jul 2013
#55
"Over there, they don't know the truth. The newspapers tell them what to think."
NBachers
Jul 2013
#5
Yes. That is why I am so appalled by the fact that the Obama administration is arresting
JDPriestly
Jul 2013
#6
True. But as I pointed out, people accepted segregation as the law for a long, long time
JDPriestly
Jul 2013
#131
Soviet Union under Stalin had an incarceration rate of about 800 per 100,000
davidn3600
Jul 2013
#10
But the US has it set up so that it doesnt take much to be convicted of a crime anymore
davidn3600
Jul 2013
#142
Under Stalin 1.7 MILLION died in gulags. Another 799,455 were executed outright.
DevonRex
Jul 2013
#139
McCarthyism was rampant during the Red Scare and black listings of actors, comedians, and others.
Major Hogwash
Jul 2013
#22
Was not institutional though, in that the Civil Rights Movement was able to take place
treestar
Jul 2013
#126
Americans were free to criticize the USSR, but those who criticized the USA, well they got their own
leveymg
Jul 2013
#11
Yes, there is virtually no one who criticizes the US government in our society.
geek tragedy
Jul 2013
#65
Even dissent can be an instrument of Big Brother. Goldstein was actually a double agent, and the
leveymg
Jul 2013
#76
We all are, quite willingly, because expression of difference is a shared psychological need
leveymg
Jul 2013
#95
A lot of busted unions, detained peace activists, brutalized Occupiers, and jailed environmentalists
NuclearDem
Jul 2013
#168
Remember how they dragged sick grannies off to prison for smoking a plant? Remember when they
Warren DeMontague
Jul 2013
#18
" all those evils committed by Communist governments -- are happening here now."
Kolesar
Jul 2013
#36
Yes, I remember. It's one of the reason I have been so appalled with the actions our
Cleita
Jul 2013
#21
You're denying that the USSR was a totalitarian regime that had zero tolerance for dissent. nt
geek tragedy
Jul 2013
#109
You're right, it's delusional hate of the United States and its government.
geek tragedy
Jul 2013
#57
So now Obama is Stalin, and America is now Amerika.. DU has become the Tea Party
geek tragedy
Jul 2013
#52
Is the implication here that the US has NO REASON arrest or even question Snowden? nt
kelliekat44
Jul 2013
#60
The implication is that the Tea party is right about Obama. When we warned people
geek tragedy
Jul 2013
#62
Nonsense but DU does have an "America sucks" clique that will eat it up.
great white snark
Jul 2013
#73
Aren't you worried about being arrested by the Obamastapo for criticizing
geek tragedy
Jul 2013
#127
and that is exactly why Snowden chose to go to China, Russia and now maybe Venezuela
Sheepshank
Jul 2013
#93
Well, plus the millions who were deliberately starved to death due to Stalin's ag policy. nt
geek tragedy
Jul 2013
#108
The Tea Party, Ron Paul, and all of his supporters fully agree with you. nt.
NCTraveler
Jul 2013
#138
When is the US going to sequester an area the size of the Ukraine and take away all the food?
Hekate
Jul 2013
#141
Exactly what do think the US did when it sequestered all of the land occupied
dipsydoodle
Jul 2013
#149
Anyone who says the US is worse than the Soviet Union was doesn't remember it. (nt)
Posteritatis
Jul 2013
#147
Excellent. Except for the last sentence, which is utter BS. Ask Solzhenitzen.
kestrel91316
Jul 2013
#151
My cousin was in the Air Force stationed in England in 1959. He ran across a travel
Cleita
May 2015
#177