General Discussion

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)

35. Sorry, but that lord's prayer at the end of the meeting alone pushes a lot of Atheists out the door.

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 09:46 PM

Mar 2014

Look, AA and the 12 steps are what they are- and that's great for the people, and there are many, for whom they work.

For many others there are other things that work, that also have success rates comparable to AA. Secular sobriety groups. Rational Recovery. REBT emotive therapy and addictive voice recognition.

I only have a problem with the 12 step approach when it is presented dogmatically as the ONLY route to sobriety. That people who are suffering are told they MUST have some sort of spiritual experience or reconcile themselves to some semantic contortion of the word "God", to begin to get better. I am sure for some folks that may be the case, others however may do FAR better via other means.

That is a truth many people may not hear in an AA meeting- that, yes, there are other ways that also can work.

Furthermore if courts are mandating 12 step attendance (something many 12 steppers themselves oppose) they MUST make secular alternatives available as well.

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Alcoholics Anonymous has a terrible success rate, addiction expert finds [View all] steve2470 Mar 2014 OP

Yes, AA or NA alone will not help an abuser stop using. gerogie2 Mar 2014 #1

we see this with teens in recovery constantly elehhhhna Mar 2014 #159

IMO, the reason AA is not effective is primarily because of their "Powerlessness" teaching and... DesertDiamond Mar 2014 #2

I do not believe that is what AA teaches, at all cally Mar 2014 #3

Exactly, cally. That idea (powerless over alcohol) is crucial to AA and their approach to recovery. anneboleyn Mar 2014 #22

Exactly Bobbie Jo Mar 2014 #59

You seem to not understand how AA works. NCTraveler Mar 2014 #195

Very interesting. My father was a lifelong alcoholic who managed to stay away from enough Mar 2014 #4

a guess here.... steve2470 Mar 2014 #9

Seems very plausible. So why aren't we treating alcoholism with some simililar medication? (nt) enough Mar 2014 #23

link for you steve2470 Mar 2014 #25

What do you expect when you treat addiction not as a disease but as a moral failing? X_Digger Mar 2014 #5

AA does not treat addiction as a moral failing, it teaches that alcohol is so powerful Fred Sanders Mar 2014 #10

Exactly! Andy823 Mar 2014 #18

Forgive me, but.. bullshit. X_Digger Mar 2014 #27

Addiction is not a psychosis, you are mixing your apples and oranges, though a psychosis Fred Sanders Mar 2014 #30

Both are mental conditions. X_Digger Mar 2014 #33

No need for the angry man persona. Someone is giving you wrong information, read and Fred Sanders Mar 2014 #38

I've read the big book, and am friends with researchers who study addiction. X_Digger Mar 2014 #45

And you are still clueless. cordelia Mar 2014 #50

Talk to psychiatric researchers who study addiction and addiction treatment. X_Digger Mar 2014 #54

When I quit drinking 25 years ago AgingAmerican Mar 2014 #151

Addiction is not actually a mental condition, it's a physical one. Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #81

Untreated DTs are 50% fatal. Warpy Mar 2014 #111

Yeah, back in the day of my Father and his hardass old-school AA Buddies, it was taken as gospel Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #185

Yeah, I had an uncle like that, the 50s were that weird Warpy Mar 2014 #186

I believe he references it obliquely in the book- the "so called belladonna cure" Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #187

Alcoholism is NOT a mental disease, elleng Mar 2014 #53

That's why I said 'addiction', rather than 'alcoholism'. X_Digger Mar 2014 #57

The link discusses both alcoholism and drug addiction, elleng Mar 2014 #61

Actually AA teaches alcoholism is a disease. boston bean Mar 2014 #32

Yes, one that is incurable, and only they offer an effective treatment. X_Digger Mar 2014 #34

You don't have a single clue what you're talking about. Seriously. cordelia Mar 2014 #43

You are so misinformed. 840high Mar 2014 #63

just stop, you are misinformed elehhhhna Mar 2014 #160

What is your problem astral Mar 2014 #175

I would only take issue with where you say "it may be only one way of many other ways"... There is Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #181

Please do not discuss AA. Thanks. nt. NCTraveler Mar 2014 #197

AA teaches alcoholism is a "spiritual malady." RandoLoodie Mar 2014 #189

AA also recognizes alcoholism as a disease. cordelia Mar 2014 #191

pretty much wrong.. boston bean Mar 2014 #192

Page 64, Alcoholics Anonymous (The Big Book) RandoLoodie Mar 2014 #196

That is simply not true. 840high Mar 2014 #62

AA has literally saved the lives of two close relatives of mine. senseandsensibility Mar 2014 #6

exactly, no money for others! hollysmom Mar 2014 #141

One huge problem is.... Wounded Bear Mar 2014 #7

Isn't that key "In the end, addicts end up associating with nobody but other addicts" Jesus Malverde Mar 2014 #65

You've never been part of an adult sports league XemaSab Mar 2014 #74

Good point...nt Jesus Malverde Mar 2014 #76

Alcohol is a poison and the most dangerous drug ever in existence, due to both Fred Sanders Mar 2014 #8

Thank you! raccoon Mar 2014 #119

May I add that I love booze? AngryAmish Mar 2014 #134

....... steve2470 Mar 2014 #137

Seems they are counting everyone who ever went to a meeting cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #11

Yes Andy823 Mar 2014 #26

The basic premise is that you are an alcoholic and that this cannot be cured... Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #12

my 2 pennies steve2470 Mar 2014 #13

One definition of "alcoholism" would specify actual physical dependency as a requirement. nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #165

It worked for me Andy823 Mar 2014 #14

excellent post nt steve2470 Mar 2014 #16

Thanks. Andy823 Mar 2014 #24

All you say is true for many, but for many it was the mental illness that came before Fred Sanders Mar 2014 #31

Thanks for sharing. 840high Mar 2014 #64

thank you, with love and gratitude from Texas elehhhhna Mar 2014 #163

They need to get the god shit out of there. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #15

There is no God shit in there. Andy823 Mar 2014 #20

Sorry, but that lord's prayer at the end of the meeting alone pushes a lot of Atheists out the door. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #35

Unfortunately, many of the other programs do not have many meetings each week cally Mar 2014 #42

A few points. One, regular meetings work and help SOME people. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #46

Some don't like the lords prayer Andy823 Mar 2014 #51

And some people are walking, talking, internet-posting *proof* that other ways work BETTER, for them Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #56

In 38 years, I've never been to a meeting DonViejo Mar 2014 #60

No, but claiming "oh it's not religious at all".. baloney. There are semantic contortions SOME are Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #82

I have seen the opposite get the red out Mar 2014 #133

It is pushed as the only way in my experience get the red out Mar 2014 #129

Aren't people who stop drinking but don't do the steps Mariana Mar 2014 #149

Yes they are get the red out Mar 2014 #155

Anecdotal from my years in public mental health politicat Mar 2014 #145

"We're only now starting to talk about it." That's the thing - how do you name a problem nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #166

Wonderful post, thank you get the red out Mar 2014 #193

That destruction of self is one of the things I personally have huge issues with in the *A model. politicat Mar 2014 #202

I tell folks Dyedinthewoolliberal Mar 2014 #68

And that attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. News Flash: There are other alternatives. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #69

You are correct. Dyedinthewoolliberal Mar 2014 #88

I'm talking about attitudes I have heard expressed by some 12 steppers- certainly not all. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #94

Yeah, the Baptists force that shit down everybody's throat in NM Warpy Mar 2014 #112

I also know that there is a big range, philosophically, among meetings. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #114

They want to get to people when they're most vulnerable. nt. Mariana Mar 2014 #146

? are you easy to push? ... hollysmom Mar 2014 #142

Er, I'm not personally big on prayer, no. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #143

sorry, I am just really old what was is not what is. n/t hollysmom Mar 2014 #144

There was an article in one of the papers here in NYC that there are atheist AA gatherings here stevenleser Mar 2014 #147

What's with the "Lord's Prayer" then? Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #55

Protestant or Catholic version? Warpy Mar 2014 #126

Accepting a higher power, in my case applegrove Mar 2014 #70

AA works for my atheist brother. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #117

It works for a lot of people. Including Atheists who can reconcile with a definition of God or a Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #120

There are get the red out Mar 2014 #138

Indeed. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #140

this is anecdotal - but the two most severe alcoholics I have known - quit drinking through AA Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #17

AA definitely works for some steve2470 Mar 2014 #19

One time a rational recovery meeting astral Mar 2014 #176

Whatever that was, it probably wasn't Rational Recovery. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #183

If it never worked for anyone, it would have vanished Mariana Mar 2014 #148

"one of the worst in all of medicine"... AA is not medicine... Ohio Joe Mar 2014 #21

It only causes harm when alcoholics are told it is the ONLY way that works. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #37

AA is a fellowship helping others live a better life and its free. aikoaiko Mar 2014 #28

Alcoholics Anonymous has a terrible success rate, addiction expert finds...so does the alternative loudsue Mar 2014 #29

And yet you have presented a false dichotomy. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #36

Yes, there alternatives. And AA says to seek those alternatives if AA does not cordelia Mar 2014 #47

That is good. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #48

I was very anti AA. Until I needed help and gave it a chance. So far so good, but cordelia Mar 2014 #52

I had a family member whose life was saved by AA, at least until the smokes killed him. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #58

Another terrible way to go davidpdx Mar 2014 #177

Yeah, I'm very glad I never picked up that particular habit. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #178

It's never too late to quit davidpdx Mar 2014 #180

Totally. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #182

Both my parents smoked davidpdx Mar 2014 #184

I have never been to a meeting where people said that get the red out Mar 2014 #170

Are you saying there are only two alternatives? RandoLoodie Mar 2014 #190

Wow! You can read things that don't exist! That's quite a talent! loudsue Mar 2014 #199

I always heard the success rate was crap... but better than other alternatives... Hip_Flask Mar 2014 #39

Everybody picks their poison in life, I guess... nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #167

It worked for me. yardwork Mar 2014 #40

Awesome etherealtruth Mar 2014 #110

I know someone who got sober when he was fifteen yardwork Mar 2014 #121

Thank you etherealtruth Mar 2014 #124

Thank you. yardwork Mar 2014 #125

Links: A few alternatives to AA and the 12 Steps (there are others) Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #41

SMART Recovery is another great AA alternative that provides tools to help in recovery. U4ikLefty Mar 2014 #77

Right, thank you, couldn't remember the name of that one! Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #79

RR is an AVRT-based approach that shuns meetings. SMART as larger focus and has both face-to-face U4ikLefty Mar 2014 #83

Totally. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #84

It worked for me for 13 years and counting kydo Mar 2014 #44

It's worked for me for nearly 4 years. This guy's trying to sell his book. cordelia Mar 2014 #49

And pharmaceuticals pipoman Mar 2014 #161

Personally, I think this "expert" pipi_k Mar 2014 #66

It works for some people. Other things work for other people. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #71

The problem I have with pipi_k Mar 2014 #109

I agree with you if you are talking about some system that claims, for instance Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #113

The physical addiction is cured by detox. U4ikLefty Mar 2014 #116

I went to a meeting once... fujiyama Mar 2014 #67

Hmmm pipoman Mar 2014 #72

when I was in the navy it was recommended by my littlewolf Mar 2014 #73

AA is without cost, which is what poor people can afford The Second Stone Mar 2014 #75

I could never get past that admitting you were helpless thing. Blue_In_AK Mar 2014 #78

With all due respect to those for whom AA has been helpful, SheilaT Mar 2014 #80

The history is certainly interesting, like the ties to "Moral Re-Armament" Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #85

I went with a friend to an AA meeting last night. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #86

in a well run group, "war stories" are discouraged, hard to do of course steve2470 Mar 2014 #89

Yes, that's exactly what I heard - war stories blueamy66 Mar 2014 #90

The term I've heard used is "drunkalogues" Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #99

yes I've heard that too nt steve2470 Mar 2014 #100

That's always been my experience at those meetings, too. closeupready Mar 2014 #102

I drank for years madokie Mar 2014 #87

One of my loved ones just needed to hear cirrhosis and you have 2 years to live, at best.... blueamy66 Mar 2014 #157

Alcoholics Anonymous can't be studied that way ismnotwasm Mar 2014 #91

Atheist meetings. A-Schwarzenegger Mar 2014 #93

100% success rate here. A-Schwarzenegger Mar 2014 #92

+1 ismnotwasm Mar 2014 #96

for the curious about DSM-5 and alcoholism steve2470 Mar 2014 #95

My brother celebrated 20 years of sobriety, last Sunday. 99Forever Mar 2014 #97

Not everyone who attends an AA/Rational Recovery/etc meeting IS truly an alcoholic.... steve2470 Mar 2014 #98

Not everyone really follows the 12 steps. undeterred Mar 2014 #101

For those interested in scientific understanding of the physiological underpinnings of alcoholism Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #103

thanks for that, Warren steve2470 Mar 2014 #104

Totally. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #105

another germane point steve2470 Mar 2014 #106

I think with many people, that is true as well. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #107

"As opposed to probably fruitless endless debates" ....... whistler162 Mar 2014 #128

aint that the truth. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #131

amen nt steve2470 Mar 2014 #135

+3 nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #168

I think all addiction sufferers probably have a terrible success rate at beating their addictions nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #108

So true! n/t etherealtruth Mar 2014 #118

This is, sadly, true. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #123

You also need your family and friends to help. Turbineguy Mar 2014 #115

Some friends. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #122

I read somewhere that addiction is when someone is "hijacked" by the substance. Sivafae Mar 2014 #152

That's a good way to put it. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #153

It is very difficult to understand. Mariana Mar 2014 #158

Curbing any addiction usually takes several attempts. liberal_at_heart Mar 2014 #127

I have contended that part of the problem is that judges sentence people to attend the meeting and jwirr Mar 2014 #130

A lot of 12 steppers don't appreciate the court-mandated people being there, either, AFAIUI. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #132

I was aware of that also. Consider that you are setting in this meeting and are expected to bare you jwirr Mar 2014 #136

I read the articles and here is why they are wrong hollysmom Mar 2014 #139

In that case, AA can't claim any sort of success rate, either Orrex Mar 2014 #154

exactly, we can only know about the group we are in, our group was very successful. hollysmom Mar 2014 #171

As to be expected Kurska Mar 2014 #150

Uh oh. You brought up the woo label. Now this thread will really explode riderinthestorm Mar 2014 #156

Couldn't resist Kurska Mar 2014 #172

Yes well, this type of "woo" is inconvenient to the naysayers riderinthestorm Mar 2014 #174

If AA reached only One Person, I would have to consider it a success. Tuesday Afternoon Mar 2014 #162

There are so many alcoholics and/or problem drinkers. Mariana Mar 2014 #164

This debate reminds me a lot of debating homeopathy William Seger Mar 2014 #173

So everyone on this thread whose been helped by AA is "utter nonsense"? riderinthestorm Mar 2014 #206

If that's what I wanted to say, I would have said that (n/t) William Seger Mar 2014 #210

So why the comparison? "that the theory behind <it> is utter nonsense?" riderinthestorm Mar 2014 #211

"Back it up or retract," huh? William Seger Apr 2014 #213

People should do whatever works for them. That's all I can say as someone who has dealt nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #169

I don't really have an opinion on AA davidpdx Mar 2014 #179

k&r for the truth. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #188

Interesting thread - I've enjoyed it very much. cordelia Mar 2014 #194

It works for countless people every day. NCTraveler Mar 2014 #198

I'll give AA props for a few things WhaTHellsgoingonhere Mar 2014 #200

That's pretty sad. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2014 #201

So none of the DUers on this thread have really experienced "success" with AA? riderinthestorm Mar 2014 #207

Not what I'm saying at all. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2014 #208

Okay, that's cool. I happen to know the programs are successful riderinthestorm Mar 2014 #209

Im a DU'er AND member of AA KinMd Mar 2014 #212

How does Dorian Gray Mar 2014 #203

I've heard a lot about the success rate on AA being bad TlalocW Mar 2014 #204

off-topic anecdote about AA steve2470 Mar 2014 #205