General Discussion

Mariana

(15,224 posts)

158. It is very difficult to understand.

Sun Mar 30, 2014, 08:44 AM

Mar 2014

I had to give up drinking altogether a couple of years ago because I developed an allergy and started breaking out in hives from even a little sip. I wasn't happy about it, but in the end it wasn't a big deal because drinking just wasn't important to me.

On the other hand, an alcoholic friend of mine (who'd been sober for a few years at that time) didn't understand that it wasn't a hardship for me to stop drinking. For him, giving up drinking was a huge deal. He had such a hard time putting it down that he just couldn't conceive of how little it bothered me to have to do it.

I can imagine how it would sneak up on a person over a period of months or years. There isn't any clear line between an ordinary drinker and an alcoholic, is there? No one can point to a date on the calendar and say "That's when I became an alcoholic."

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Alcoholics Anonymous has a terrible success rate, addiction expert finds [View all] steve2470 Mar 2014 OP

Yes, AA or NA alone will not help an abuser stop using. gerogie2 Mar 2014 #1

we see this with teens in recovery constantly elehhhhna Mar 2014 #159

IMO, the reason AA is not effective is primarily because of their "Powerlessness" teaching and... DesertDiamond Mar 2014 #2

I do not believe that is what AA teaches, at all cally Mar 2014 #3

Exactly, cally. That idea (powerless over alcohol) is crucial to AA and their approach to recovery. anneboleyn Mar 2014 #22

Exactly Bobbie Jo Mar 2014 #59

You seem to not understand how AA works. NCTraveler Mar 2014 #195

Very interesting. My father was a lifelong alcoholic who managed to stay away from enough Mar 2014 #4

a guess here.... steve2470 Mar 2014 #9

Seems very plausible. So why aren't we treating alcoholism with some simililar medication? (nt) enough Mar 2014 #23

link for you steve2470 Mar 2014 #25

What do you expect when you treat addiction not as a disease but as a moral failing? X_Digger Mar 2014 #5

AA does not treat addiction as a moral failing, it teaches that alcohol is so powerful Fred Sanders Mar 2014 #10

Exactly! Andy823 Mar 2014 #18

Forgive me, but.. bullshit. X_Digger Mar 2014 #27

Addiction is not a psychosis, you are mixing your apples and oranges, though a psychosis Fred Sanders Mar 2014 #30

Both are mental conditions. X_Digger Mar 2014 #33

No need for the angry man persona. Someone is giving you wrong information, read and Fred Sanders Mar 2014 #38

I've read the big book, and am friends with researchers who study addiction. X_Digger Mar 2014 #45

And you are still clueless. cordelia Mar 2014 #50

Talk to psychiatric researchers who study addiction and addiction treatment. X_Digger Mar 2014 #54

When I quit drinking 25 years ago AgingAmerican Mar 2014 #151

Addiction is not actually a mental condition, it's a physical one. Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #81

Untreated DTs are 50% fatal. Warpy Mar 2014 #111

Yeah, back in the day of my Father and his hardass old-school AA Buddies, it was taken as gospel Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #185

Yeah, I had an uncle like that, the 50s were that weird Warpy Mar 2014 #186

I believe he references it obliquely in the book- the "so called belladonna cure" Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #187

Alcoholism is NOT a mental disease, elleng Mar 2014 #53

That's why I said 'addiction', rather than 'alcoholism'. X_Digger Mar 2014 #57

The link discusses both alcoholism and drug addiction, elleng Mar 2014 #61

Actually AA teaches alcoholism is a disease. boston bean Mar 2014 #32

Yes, one that is incurable, and only they offer an effective treatment. X_Digger Mar 2014 #34

You don't have a single clue what you're talking about. Seriously. cordelia Mar 2014 #43

You are so misinformed. 840high Mar 2014 #63

just stop, you are misinformed elehhhhna Mar 2014 #160

What is your problem astral Mar 2014 #175

I would only take issue with where you say "it may be only one way of many other ways"... There is Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #181

Please do not discuss AA. Thanks. nt. NCTraveler Mar 2014 #197

AA teaches alcoholism is a "spiritual malady." RandoLoodie Mar 2014 #189

AA also recognizes alcoholism as a disease. cordelia Mar 2014 #191

pretty much wrong.. boston bean Mar 2014 #192

Page 64, Alcoholics Anonymous (The Big Book) RandoLoodie Mar 2014 #196

That is simply not true. 840high Mar 2014 #62

AA has literally saved the lives of two close relatives of mine. senseandsensibility Mar 2014 #6

exactly, no money for others! hollysmom Mar 2014 #141

One huge problem is.... Wounded Bear Mar 2014 #7

Isn't that key "In the end, addicts end up associating with nobody but other addicts" Jesus Malverde Mar 2014 #65

You've never been part of an adult sports league XemaSab Mar 2014 #74

Good point...nt Jesus Malverde Mar 2014 #76

Alcohol is a poison and the most dangerous drug ever in existence, due to both Fred Sanders Mar 2014 #8

Thank you! raccoon Mar 2014 #119

May I add that I love booze? AngryAmish Mar 2014 #134

....... steve2470 Mar 2014 #137

Seems they are counting everyone who ever went to a meeting cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #11

Yes Andy823 Mar 2014 #26

The basic premise is that you are an alcoholic and that this cannot be cured... Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #12

my 2 pennies steve2470 Mar 2014 #13

One definition of "alcoholism" would specify actual physical dependency as a requirement. nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #165

It worked for me Andy823 Mar 2014 #14

excellent post nt steve2470 Mar 2014 #16

Thanks. Andy823 Mar 2014 #24

All you say is true for many, but for many it was the mental illness that came before Fred Sanders Mar 2014 #31

Thanks for sharing. 840high Mar 2014 #64

thank you, with love and gratitude from Texas elehhhhna Mar 2014 #163

They need to get the god shit out of there. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #15

There is no God shit in there. Andy823 Mar 2014 #20

Sorry, but that lord's prayer at the end of the meeting alone pushes a lot of Atheists out the door. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #35

Unfortunately, many of the other programs do not have many meetings each week cally Mar 2014 #42

A few points. One, regular meetings work and help SOME people. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #46

Some don't like the lords prayer Andy823 Mar 2014 #51

And some people are walking, talking, internet-posting *proof* that other ways work BETTER, for them Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #56

In 38 years, I've never been to a meeting DonViejo Mar 2014 #60

No, but claiming "oh it's not religious at all".. baloney. There are semantic contortions SOME are Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #82

I have seen the opposite get the red out Mar 2014 #133

It is pushed as the only way in my experience get the red out Mar 2014 #129

Aren't people who stop drinking but don't do the steps Mariana Mar 2014 #149

Yes they are get the red out Mar 2014 #155

Anecdotal from my years in public mental health politicat Mar 2014 #145

"We're only now starting to talk about it." That's the thing - how do you name a problem nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #166

Wonderful post, thank you get the red out Mar 2014 #193

That destruction of self is one of the things I personally have huge issues with in the *A model. politicat Mar 2014 #202

I tell folks Dyedinthewoolliberal Mar 2014 #68

And that attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. News Flash: There are other alternatives. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #69

You are correct. Dyedinthewoolliberal Mar 2014 #88

I'm talking about attitudes I have heard expressed by some 12 steppers- certainly not all. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #94

Yeah, the Baptists force that shit down everybody's throat in NM Warpy Mar 2014 #112

I also know that there is a big range, philosophically, among meetings. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #114

They want to get to people when they're most vulnerable. nt. Mariana Mar 2014 #146

? are you easy to push? ... hollysmom Mar 2014 #142

Er, I'm not personally big on prayer, no. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #143

sorry, I am just really old what was is not what is. n/t hollysmom Mar 2014 #144

There was an article in one of the papers here in NYC that there are atheist AA gatherings here stevenleser Mar 2014 #147

What's with the "Lord's Prayer" then? Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #55

Protestant or Catholic version? Warpy Mar 2014 #126

Accepting a higher power, in my case applegrove Mar 2014 #70

AA works for my atheist brother. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #117

It works for a lot of people. Including Atheists who can reconcile with a definition of God or a Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #120

There are get the red out Mar 2014 #138

Indeed. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #140

this is anecdotal - but the two most severe alcoholics I have known - quit drinking through AA Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #17

AA definitely works for some steve2470 Mar 2014 #19

One time a rational recovery meeting astral Mar 2014 #176

Whatever that was, it probably wasn't Rational Recovery. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #183

If it never worked for anyone, it would have vanished Mariana Mar 2014 #148

"one of the worst in all of medicine"... AA is not medicine... Ohio Joe Mar 2014 #21

It only causes harm when alcoholics are told it is the ONLY way that works. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #37

AA is a fellowship helping others live a better life and its free. aikoaiko Mar 2014 #28

Alcoholics Anonymous has a terrible success rate, addiction expert finds...so does the alternative loudsue Mar 2014 #29

And yet you have presented a false dichotomy. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #36

Yes, there alternatives. And AA says to seek those alternatives if AA does not cordelia Mar 2014 #47

That is good. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #48

I was very anti AA. Until I needed help and gave it a chance. So far so good, but cordelia Mar 2014 #52

I had a family member whose life was saved by AA, at least until the smokes killed him. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #58

Another terrible way to go davidpdx Mar 2014 #177

Yeah, I'm very glad I never picked up that particular habit. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #178

It's never too late to quit davidpdx Mar 2014 #180

Totally. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #182

Both my parents smoked davidpdx Mar 2014 #184

I have never been to a meeting where people said that get the red out Mar 2014 #170

Are you saying there are only two alternatives? RandoLoodie Mar 2014 #190

Wow! You can read things that don't exist! That's quite a talent! loudsue Mar 2014 #199

I always heard the success rate was crap... but better than other alternatives... Hip_Flask Mar 2014 #39

Everybody picks their poison in life, I guess... nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #167

It worked for me. yardwork Mar 2014 #40

Awesome etherealtruth Mar 2014 #110

I know someone who got sober when he was fifteen yardwork Mar 2014 #121

Thank you etherealtruth Mar 2014 #124

Thank you. yardwork Mar 2014 #125

Links: A few alternatives to AA and the 12 Steps (there are others) Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #41

SMART Recovery is another great AA alternative that provides tools to help in recovery. U4ikLefty Mar 2014 #77

Right, thank you, couldn't remember the name of that one! Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #79

RR is an AVRT-based approach that shuns meetings. SMART as larger focus and has both face-to-face U4ikLefty Mar 2014 #83

Totally. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #84

It worked for me for 13 years and counting kydo Mar 2014 #44

It's worked for me for nearly 4 years. This guy's trying to sell his book. cordelia Mar 2014 #49

And pharmaceuticals pipoman Mar 2014 #161

Personally, I think this "expert" pipi_k Mar 2014 #66

It works for some people. Other things work for other people. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #71

The problem I have with pipi_k Mar 2014 #109

I agree with you if you are talking about some system that claims, for instance Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #113

The physical addiction is cured by detox. U4ikLefty Mar 2014 #116

I went to a meeting once... fujiyama Mar 2014 #67

Hmmm pipoman Mar 2014 #72

when I was in the navy it was recommended by my littlewolf Mar 2014 #73

AA is without cost, which is what poor people can afford The Second Stone Mar 2014 #75

I could never get past that admitting you were helpless thing. Blue_In_AK Mar 2014 #78

With all due respect to those for whom AA has been helpful, SheilaT Mar 2014 #80

The history is certainly interesting, like the ties to "Moral Re-Armament" Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #85

I went with a friend to an AA meeting last night. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #86

in a well run group, "war stories" are discouraged, hard to do of course steve2470 Mar 2014 #89

Yes, that's exactly what I heard - war stories blueamy66 Mar 2014 #90

The term I've heard used is "drunkalogues" Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #99

yes I've heard that too nt steve2470 Mar 2014 #100

That's always been my experience at those meetings, too. closeupready Mar 2014 #102

I drank for years madokie Mar 2014 #87

One of my loved ones just needed to hear cirrhosis and you have 2 years to live, at best.... blueamy66 Mar 2014 #157

Alcoholics Anonymous can't be studied that way ismnotwasm Mar 2014 #91

Atheist meetings. A-Schwarzenegger Mar 2014 #93

100% success rate here. A-Schwarzenegger Mar 2014 #92

+1 ismnotwasm Mar 2014 #96

for the curious about DSM-5 and alcoholism steve2470 Mar 2014 #95

My brother celebrated 20 years of sobriety, last Sunday. 99Forever Mar 2014 #97

Not everyone who attends an AA/Rational Recovery/etc meeting IS truly an alcoholic.... steve2470 Mar 2014 #98

Not everyone really follows the 12 steps. undeterred Mar 2014 #101

For those interested in scientific understanding of the physiological underpinnings of alcoholism Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #103

thanks for that, Warren steve2470 Mar 2014 #104

Totally. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #105

another germane point steve2470 Mar 2014 #106

I think with many people, that is true as well. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #107

"As opposed to probably fruitless endless debates" ....... whistler162 Mar 2014 #128

aint that the truth. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #131

amen nt steve2470 Mar 2014 #135

+3 nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #168

I think all addiction sufferers probably have a terrible success rate at beating their addictions nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #108

So true! n/t etherealtruth Mar 2014 #118

This is, sadly, true. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #123

You also need your family and friends to help. Turbineguy Mar 2014 #115

Some friends. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #122

I read somewhere that addiction is when someone is "hijacked" by the substance. Sivafae Mar 2014 #152

That's a good way to put it. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #153

It is very difficult to understand. Mariana Mar 2014 #158

Curbing any addiction usually takes several attempts. liberal_at_heart Mar 2014 #127

I have contended that part of the problem is that judges sentence people to attend the meeting and jwirr Mar 2014 #130

A lot of 12 steppers don't appreciate the court-mandated people being there, either, AFAIUI. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #132

I was aware of that also. Consider that you are setting in this meeting and are expected to bare you jwirr Mar 2014 #136

I read the articles and here is why they are wrong hollysmom Mar 2014 #139

In that case, AA can't claim any sort of success rate, either Orrex Mar 2014 #154

exactly, we can only know about the group we are in, our group was very successful. hollysmom Mar 2014 #171

As to be expected Kurska Mar 2014 #150

Uh oh. You brought up the woo label. Now this thread will really explode riderinthestorm Mar 2014 #156

Couldn't resist Kurska Mar 2014 #172

Yes well, this type of "woo" is inconvenient to the naysayers riderinthestorm Mar 2014 #174

If AA reached only One Person, I would have to consider it a success. Tuesday Afternoon Mar 2014 #162

There are so many alcoholics and/or problem drinkers. Mariana Mar 2014 #164

This debate reminds me a lot of debating homeopathy William Seger Mar 2014 #173

So everyone on this thread whose been helped by AA is "utter nonsense"? riderinthestorm Mar 2014 #206

If that's what I wanted to say, I would have said that (n/t) William Seger Mar 2014 #210

So why the comparison? "that the theory behind <it> is utter nonsense?" riderinthestorm Mar 2014 #211

"Back it up or retract," huh? William Seger Apr 2014 #213

People should do whatever works for them. That's all I can say as someone who has dealt nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #169

I don't really have an opinion on AA davidpdx Mar 2014 #179

k&r for the truth. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #188

Interesting thread - I've enjoyed it very much. cordelia Mar 2014 #194

It works for countless people every day. NCTraveler Mar 2014 #198

I'll give AA props for a few things WhaTHellsgoingonhere Mar 2014 #200

That's pretty sad. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2014 #201

So none of the DUers on this thread have really experienced "success" with AA? riderinthestorm Mar 2014 #207

Not what I'm saying at all. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2014 #208

Okay, that's cool. I happen to know the programs are successful riderinthestorm Mar 2014 #209

Im a DU'er AND member of AA KinMd Mar 2014 #212

How does Dorian Gray Mar 2014 #203

I've heard a lot about the success rate on AA being bad TlalocW Mar 2014 #204

off-topic anecdote about AA steve2470 Mar 2014 #205