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Orrex

(65,884 posts)

208. That once again assumes the conclusion

Reply to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #192)

Thu Apr 10, 2014, 03:43 PM

Apr 2014

You assume that pets are equivalent to actual family members, which is the exact question at issue, and you declare the matter settled. I'm not saying that you personally believe this; I'm addressing your current circular framing.

Tell you what: kill someone who threatens your dog and only your dog, and see how the court reacts. We're not talking about a deputized police dog, nor a highly trained service animal. Just a garden variety mutt. Kill the person who threatens the animal and let me know if the judge throws out your murder charge, praising you for protecting your family.

Additionally, these noble protectors aren't reacting in a moment of duress: they're declaring in advance their intent to kill anyone who threatens their animals.

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Anyone else find equating pets and animals with humans to be rather strange? [View all] quinnox Apr 2014 OP

Depends on which human is drowning. Child yes, Limbaugh no. JaneyVee Apr 2014 #1

Yes Go Vols Apr 2014 #2

Some religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism CJCRANE Apr 2014 #3

Humans are merely one species of animal among many. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #7

Yeah, but then PETA also protested Manhattan's attempt to get rid of rats. Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #4

Depends on the type of pet and whether it was mine. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #5

You'd save one of your pets in preference to drowning child? Really? Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2014 #13

As far as I'm concerned Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #15

You do know that you're objectively wrong, don't you? Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2014 #16

Shrug. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #21

Mind-centrism, not human-centrism. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2014 #22

That's a matter of choosing your defining line. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #26

How do you feel about our policy of droning human beings, then? sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #76

LOL AnalystInParadise Apr 2014 #117

And who couldn't have predicted your non-response? ronnie624 Apr 2014 #133

Post removed Post removed Apr 2014 #136

Excellent point, Sabrina. closeupready Apr 2014 #174

That standard is entirely arbitrary. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2014 #90

you do know that is what we all do? hfojvt Apr 2014 #74

Objectively? Lizzie Poppet Apr 2014 #86

You equate all people on the same level but not avebury Apr 2014 #87

Lots of education it appears HangOnKids Apr 2014 #25

I never will. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #27

But you call your dogs your children HangOnKids Apr 2014 #33

It is very stupid to denigrate another person tabasco Apr 2014 #81

Judgmental nonsense. Feral Child Apr 2014 #146

Most pet owners OwnedByCats Apr 2014 #148

"Most pet owners consider their pets like their children" Orrex Apr 2014 #151

Ok smarty OwnedByCats Apr 2014 #154

Your framing is incorrect. Orrex Apr 2014 #157

Whatever OwnedByCats Apr 2014 #163

That framing is also incorrect Orrex Apr 2014 #164

Not supported to your mind OwnedByCats Apr 2014 #166

See, that sounds entirely reasonable to me Orrex Apr 2014 #167

Hair trigger? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #192

That once again assumes the conclusion Orrex Apr 2014 #208

You're addressing a different issue there. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #211

important is an individually chosen decision. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #196

My parents referred to their dog Axel as my brother. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #187

I admit that "Axel Ploodaxe BSN" does sound pretty cool. Orrex Apr 2014 #190

Lots of assumptions in your post HangOnKids Apr 2014 #168

Doesn't matter OwnedByCats Apr 2014 #170

Maybe that should have been your response to my post HangOnKids Apr 2014 #173

Well to be honest OwnedByCats Apr 2014 #175

Hey Cats Are Cool HangOnKids Apr 2014 #177

And there aren't too many dogs? joeglow3 Apr 2014 #155

If I ever wanted to take personal responsibility for another human Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #191

Does a child rank higher than adult in your moral code? krawhitham Apr 2014 #103

Sort of Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2014 #132

Foster Child? 4Q2u2 Apr 2014 #181

I'm not sure that was nested under mine Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #194

I was never taught that people are above animals….so, NO. Tikki Apr 2014 #6

I think about that sometimes - I honestly don't know which I would choose petronius Apr 2014 #8

Most cats are excellent swimmers. Aerows Apr 2014 #37

I love my cat to pieces qazplm Apr 2014 #64

I'd almost certainly do just the opposite. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2014 #89

I'm with you. nt oldhippie Apr 2014 #94

I am just the opposite FrodosPet Apr 2014 #109

I respect that. A lot. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2014 #128

what about a furry? snooper2 Apr 2014 #162

That center one is one damn fine outfit. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #197

Do you think sentient animals have no rights? Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #9

I tend to think cetaceans already should have more rights Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #18

And that law is part of the gradual recognition that "rights" are not exclusive to humans. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #54

I think they should have legal protections, but that's not quite the same thing as rights. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2014 #19

Are you sure about this: Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #58

Dolphins can recognize themselves in a mirror. n/t truth2power Apr 2014 #99

I assume what some mean AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #101

The difference between human and animal intelligence is massive and qualitative. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2014 #131

Well there was Alex the Parrot who made jokes, played word games Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #147

Not sure what you mean by rights quinnox Apr 2014 #30

Animals do have rights. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #53

I agree animals should not be subject to cruelty. But to me, that is just practicing good morals quinnox Apr 2014 #56

I dont believe a cow is sentient qazplm Apr 2014 #67

You can thank Aristotle for that thinking nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #10

I see nobody suggesting disrespecting our pets pipoman Apr 2014 #115

Yes.. butterfly77 Apr 2014 #11

We are all "animals" and it sure the hell isn't non-human species destroying the planet... hlthe2b Apr 2014 #12

I hope you're a better person than you think you are. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2014 #20

+1,000,000 (nt) Nine Apr 2014 #61

How silly to say that. None of us knows with any certainty that we would "step in" AT ALL... hlthe2b Apr 2014 #98

we aren't "destroying" the planet qazplm Apr 2014 #68

rosy glasses you got there G_j Apr 2014 #71

LOL. tabasco Apr 2014 #82

Ahh, another climate change denier responding to the "dog" whistle (pun intended) hlthe2b Apr 2014 #97

I actually don't think he is. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #198

and THAT is not destroying the earth as YOU know it? Really? Reallly? REALLY?????! hlthe2b Apr 2014 #213

I have both a BS and PhD in geology. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #222

What lack of regard for your children & hlthe2b Apr 2014 #223

What does regard for children and grandchildren have to do ... oldhippie Apr 2014 #224

I'm not a breeder. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #226

Nor am I, but I don't find it difficult to give a damn about the future of those who come after me. hlthe2b Apr 2014 #231

Neither do I. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #232

exactly qazplm Apr 2014 #229

please point me to the climate change denial qazplm Apr 2014 #230

To quote Red Leader AnalystInParadise Apr 2014 #118

Who would Fido save ... GeorgeGist Apr 2014 #14

fido would save whoever is feeding it. end of story nt msongs Apr 2014 #35

I love my pets. I truly do, but I can assure you newcriminal Apr 2014 #17

You would save Rush Limpballs Politicalboi Apr 2014 #23

Yes I'm afraid I would. newcriminal Apr 2014 #28

What is the rest of the list? FrodosPet Apr 2014 #110

that is how I see it quinnox Apr 2014 #32

Humans do not have instincts, our behavior is learned. phil89 Apr 2014 #41

"Humans do not have instincts" ??? What? We so do. EX500rider Apr 2014 #116

Utter nonsense pipoman Apr 2014 #119

I agree with this. Some dark opnions, here... Eleanors38 Apr 2014 #40

I have to go with saving the human over the pet. n/t cherokeeprogressive Apr 2014 #63

This message was self-deleted by its author TlalocW Apr 2014 #24

We are all sentient beings WhiteTara Apr 2014 #29

Humans are animals The2ndWheel Apr 2014 #31

When it comes to saving a child or an animal I would save the child EXCEPT angstlessk Apr 2014 #34

You couldnt be more wrong. darkangel218 Apr 2014 #36

Humans demise is that they "think they are above animals and nature" and it is that "separation or glinda Apr 2014 #124

Yes, because all animals are perfect and Humans are not. 4Q2u2 Apr 2014 #180

I wouldn't say 'animals are perfect' Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #200

Of course not..pets are far superior... joeybee12 Apr 2014 #38

Hmm CFLDem Apr 2014 #39

Not all humans are above our pets. michaz Apr 2014 #42

No.. Upton Apr 2014 #43

It's clear that the OP has never had any sort of companion animal... Blue_Tires Apr 2014 #44

Some of the very nicest people I know... 99Forever Apr 2014 #45

Agreed. Great post. n/t RebelOne Apr 2014 #46

well, damn quinnox Apr 2014 #48

I have never met any Go Vols Apr 2014 #57

That's sad. n/t 99Forever Apr 2014 #72

Yes it is Go Vols Apr 2014 #114

Might I suggest you check into the concept of... 99Forever Apr 2014 #221

Just being absolutely honest. 99Forever Apr 2014 #69

I'm sorry about Nakita Beaverhausen Apr 2014 #120

I lost my dog in early February so I'm so sorry for what yr going through... Violet_Crumble Apr 2014 #137

Sorry 99Forever. glinda Apr 2014 #161

+1000 K&R nt avebury Apr 2014 #83

Well put n/t Prophet 451 Apr 2014 #138

This is so much bullshit CrawlingChaos Apr 2014 #47

Look, I disagree with you. And I can do that with a good conscience quinnox Apr 2014 #49

+1 Nicely said. KurtNYC Apr 2014 #95

Totally agree OwnedByCats Apr 2014 #150

Might not be goofy, but it's argument by assertion Orrex Apr 2014 #152

He minimized animal treatment and compassion? 4Q2u2 Apr 2014 #179

Nope. The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2014 #50

understandable... uriel1972 Apr 2014 #51

No. 2naSalit Apr 2014 #52

Thing is, Fido might be drowning because he was attempting to save that child in the first place... haele Apr 2014 #55

Thanks for that detailed and lengthy answer quinnox Apr 2014 #60

The problem is that animals are thought of as property. undeterred Apr 2014 #59

I heard a punk rocker... yallerdawg Apr 2014 #62

Welcome to DU yallerdawg panader0 Apr 2014 #65

Thank you for the welcome yallerdawg Apr 2014 #75

No. truebluegreen Apr 2014 #66

I think that we flatter humans by equating them with pets and animals... Tom Ripley Apr 2014 #70

It depends. Vattel Apr 2014 #73

No, because we humans humanize almost everything in our world. Agnosticsherbet Apr 2014 #77

I am inclined to save the human animal over another species. bravenak Apr 2014 #78

No. I think your viewpoint is quite stupid. tabasco Apr 2014 #79

Priceless as you posted this as a reply to me HangOnKids Apr 2014 #172

I actually think a lot higher of animals then I do people. avebury Apr 2014 #80

No. femmocrat Apr 2014 #84

I'd save my cat before almost every human on the planet. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2014 #85

Exactly! PasadenaTrudy Apr 2014 #113

It's on a case-by-case basis for me. nt frogmarch Apr 2014 #88

What I find rather strange MelungeonWoman Apr 2014 #91

Yes. sagat Apr 2014 #92

any one that has a pet MFM008 Apr 2014 #93

There are people on DU right now who campaign to put my dog to death for the way she looks. baldguy Apr 2014 #96

What I find strange is putting pets and animals above humans. nt kelliekat44 Apr 2014 #100

This thread is giving me the major creeps. Nine Apr 2014 #102

Yep DashOneBravo Apr 2014 #105

A-FUCKING-MEN joeglow3 Apr 2014 #156

Humans are animals. nt LeftyMom Apr 2014 #104

Humans appear to be aliens to me. glinda Apr 2014 #125

posts like this are part of the reason why i'd save my drowning cat over most people. dionysus Apr 2014 #106

So the drowning situation doesn't work as a thought experiment but... politicat Apr 2014 #107

Everything you said is based in ego. flvegan Apr 2014 #108

Okay, let's go with "strange." Iggo Apr 2014 #111

Dog first.... PasadenaTrudy Apr 2014 #112

+1 glinda Apr 2014 #126

That's just warped... Violet_Crumble Apr 2014 #135

I have pictures on my desk Nevernose Apr 2014 #121

I like my pets better than most humans. PeteSelman Apr 2014 #122

There was a story recently where guy's boat was sinking. LisaL Apr 2014 #123

I figure that if any situation like that were to ACTUALLY happen, kentauros Apr 2014 #127

I'd hate to think the way you think. Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #129

It is interesting that the OP... deathrind Apr 2014 #130

I have more loyalty to humans than to the other animals, ZombieHorde Apr 2014 #134

I don't understand people who say "dog first" but eat factory farmed pigs mucifer Apr 2014 #139

Factory farming is illegal here Prophet 451 Apr 2014 #141

curious, where is "here"? It needs to be everywhere. mucifer Apr 2014 #142

Sorry, "here" is the UK Prophet 451 Apr 2014 #143

I can't imagine the USA stopping factory farming. mucifer Apr 2014 #144

There's more good ready-made vegan and vegetarian food available. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #203

Bullshit false dilemma Prophet 451 Apr 2014 #140

There is no restriction against posing a hypothetical with only two options. Orrex Apr 2014 #149

I honestly don't know Prophet 451 Apr 2014 #159

I find the hypothetical to be too unrealistic to create such a choice in my head... Humanist_Activist Apr 2014 #189

The particular mode of certain death isn't central Orrex Apr 2014 #193

The problem is that, in real life, there is no way to figure out if death is 100% certain... Humanist_Activist Apr 2014 #195

It needn't be a mathematical certainty Orrex Apr 2014 #202

I can't remove my own assumptions from it... Humanist_Activist Apr 2014 #206

When you're given a math problem, are you only able to solve it in terms of tangible objects? Orrex Apr 2014 #209

The assumptions I'm talking about are things such as "a dog is much better at swimming than a child" Humanist_Activist Apr 2014 #212

Well... Orrex Apr 2014 #214

But if it is set aside, then I don't find the thought experiment useful... Humanist_Activist Apr 2014 #219

But you've already answered the question (correctly, IMO) Orrex Apr 2014 #220

People chose to answer it. Nine Apr 2014 #153

Biologically speaking, we are geared to save what's genetically closer. RedCappedBandit Apr 2014 #145

The genetic difference is pretty minute. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #205

My dog would rescue the 'drowning' human, child or adult. Doubt I'd notice a drowning child. Sunlei Apr 2014 #158

Jesus, I didn't know that either Prophet 451 Apr 2014 #160

Misanthropy sucks. n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #165

That it do. (n/t) Iggo Apr 2014 #201

Marmite Rescue Octafish Apr 2014 #169

Strange as hell MO_Moderate Apr 2014 #171

Yes, it is strange to me, and I'll never do it (with a few closeupready Apr 2014 #176

as a biologist, I disagree with you.... mike_c Apr 2014 #178

To add to that, IDemo Apr 2014 #182

excellent point. liberal_at_heart Apr 2014 #227

No, I don't. NaturalHigh Apr 2014 #183

As it causes no absolute or collective problems vis-a-vis western mores LanternWaste Apr 2014 #184

love is selfish and not a rational/hierarchical emotion La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2014 #185

False dichotomy, unless there is something seriously wrong with your dog... Humanist_Activist Apr 2014 #186

No. And Having That View and Equating With PETA Isn't A Logical Conclusion ProfessorGAC Apr 2014 #188

I used to think that humans were the most advanced life form on the planet... jmondine Apr 2014 #199

Humanity is about to shit in it's nest to the point it will no longer support us, CrispyQ Apr 2014 #204

^ This. nt justiceischeap Apr 2014 #207

Your asking the wrong question. It's more a matter of love. Glassunion Apr 2014 #210

well responsible parents are not expected to have their male children neutered Douglas Carpenter Apr 2014 #215

um, no. why is it a contest? people who are very anti-animal rights have some serious personality TheFrenchRazor Apr 2014 #216

The one absolutely unselfish friend that man can have in this selfish world, Douglas Carpenter Apr 2014 #217

nope, not strange at all. n/t Scout Apr 2014 #218

no. My husband's guide dog saved his life. I'd say he was probably better than some humans. liberal_at_heart Apr 2014 #225

Anyone else find this question just an attempt to bait people into bashing PETA? pragmatic_dem Apr 2014 #228

Another possibility yallerdawg Apr 2014 #233

Is PETA asking or expecting Shankapotomus Apr 2014 #234

I hate to break it to some people, but humans as a whole... Shandris Apr 2014 #235