General Discussion

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)

46. Setting aside conspiracy theories, the reality in these trade agreements is that they

Sat May 3, 2014, 03:35 PM

May 2014

supersede our local, state and sometimes even federal courts and legislatures.

Documents show that negotiators are pushing for inclusion of NAFTA's infamous corporate tribunals, in which corporations "settle disputes" with governments in secrecy and trample domestic protections from public health to environmental regulations, completely circumventing their own national legal systems.

Critics have slammed a wide range of measures included in draft text that would erode internet freedom, access to life-saving medicines, and environmental protections and expand corporate power.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2014/05/02-5

Treaties are the supreme law of the land along with the Constitution.

Article VI, US Constitution:

. . . .

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

. . . .

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlevi

In a sense it can be said that adopting a trade treaty is like amending our Constitution to bring the agreements entered into in the treaty to the level of importance in our laws that our Constitution and laws passed by Congress hold.

We the People should at least be shown enough respect to be told what is going on in the negotiations.

When running for president, Obama promised transparency. And now, in these important negotiations that will determine to a great extent the future development of our economy and our legal system, our democracy and our lives, the curtain is drawn and we are not allowed to know what is going on.

And then, Obama wants fast-trac. No way. No way.

If Obama has nothing to hide, he has nothing to fear from transparency.

Isn't that what Obama and the NSA keep telling us in so many words?

President Obama, end the conspiracy theories. Tell us what is going on in the negotiations, all the dirty details. We want transparency. That's why we elected you.

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Obama calls critics of TPP secrecy 'Conspiracy Theorists' [View all] Octafish May 2014 OP

Many of them are...nt SidDithers May 2014 #1

You've called me a conspiracy theorist for a long time. Octafish May 2014 #8

Looks like the world is filled with them, no? But then, otoh, we have seen some of what is in that sabrina 1 May 2014 #11

But is that a bad thing? Throughout history many Conspiracy Theories turned out rhett o rick May 2014 #21

Coincidence Theorist billhicks76 May 2014 #29

With lack of facts we can see... awoke_in_2003 May 2014 #72

Yes, the President got it right nt Progressive dog May 2014 #91

The real question I have is hootinholler May 2014 #102

You are good at fishing LOL :) snooper2 May 2014 #232

I wonder why there's a "lack of knowledge of what is going on in the negotiations" arcane1 May 2014 #2

Could it be the secrecy? Octafish May 2014 #10

LOL! emsimon33 May 2014 #118

There are things that we did not know that we did not know IDemo May 2014 #125

Bingo! deutsey May 2014 #166

Because this is how the Corporate owners of this country want it... elzenmahn May 2014 #181

I for one support our Free Trade champion! IDemo May 2014 #3

Good on you. So, why do TPP negotiators get multi-million dollar bonuses from Wall Street? Octafish May 2014 #15

You missed the reference post IDemo May 2014 #18

Thank you, IDemo. Octafish May 2014 #25

Ugland House pscot May 2014 #171

Amazing what the rich and their corporations will do to hide the money. Octafish May 2014 #180

"Free Trade champion" Maedhros May 2014 #57

thanks for clearing that up. Phlem May 2014 #65

Not for me sakabatou May 2014 #163

Better Oligarchs! GeorgeGist May 2014 #4

Despots make the best allies, it seems. Octafish May 2014 #20

some have selective memories noiretextatique May 2014 #27

Thanks for the reminder, Octafish. Raksha May 2014 #62

Don't forget Saddam Hussein... awoke_in_2003 May 2014 #76

Iraq nationalized their oil in 1972. WatermelonRat May 2014 #207

Actually his sin was wanting to get off the petrodollar. hobbit709 May 2014 #222

That is a sobering and terrifying list... truebrit71 May 2014 #84

Depends on how you define "best." Besides, our helping to prop up despots merrily May 2014 #165

Pretty sure those new laws won't be applied to him... truebrit71 May 2014 #82

Methinks "Conspiracy Theorists" is a euphemism for "Fucking Retarded" BrotherIvan May 2014 #5

On the Wrong Side of Globalization Octafish May 2014 #36

Thanks for the link/excerpt to the Stiglitz article erronis May 2014 #85

Message auto-removed Name removed May 2014 #6

conspiracy: the act of secretly planning to do something that is harmful or illegal Tierra_y_Libertad May 2014 #7

So the President is correct. It's just that it isnt a bad thing. nm rhett o rick May 2014 #22

quite an interesting choice of words on the part of POTUS nashville_brook May 2014 #37

Projection. nt awoke_in_2003 May 2014 #77

Conspiracy and class interest. OnyxCollie May 2014 #97

''if and only if social welfare is improved by doing so.'' Octafish May 2014 #194

Like using government position to enrich cronies. Octafish May 2014 #192

Intellectual Profiling from Tool Central n/t whatchamacallit May 2014 #9

It made me sad in a most profound way. Octafish May 2014 #69

Indeed Octafish whatchamacallit May 2014 #75

Conspiratorial Wink Octafish May 2014 #94

Questioning what the government does in secret is pretty kooky Douglas Carpenter May 2014 #12

Thank you, Cass Sunstein. Octafish May 2014 #190

Hope and Change. woo me with science May 2014 #13

What would Goldman think? Octafish May 2014 #32

Conspiracy Theory ' Ichingcarpenter May 2014 #14

Stellar post. I wish you would break this down and make an OP, or several. woo me with science May 2014 #19

You could do that.. Ichingcarpenter May 2014 #24

This message was self-deleted by its author woo me with science May 2014 #31

Iching has it right. Puzzledtraveller May 2014 #105

ban public health care. I wonder if the president was lying about wanting Doctor_J May 2014 #128

Well, his trade negotiator is conspiring with lobbyists in secret. pa28 May 2014 #16

Great point. It's conspiracy reality. nm rhett o rick May 2014 #23

It IS a conspiracy. 99Forever May 2014 #17

I don't think they care anymore. woo me with science May 2014 #28

They know it works. stillwaiting May 2014 #79

And they know their cheerleaders are 100% behind corporatism. HooptieWagon May 2014 #88

are you referring to Obama or his fan club? Skittles May 2014 #153

I knew he was a corporatist from the beginning, and wasn't even in my Top 3 to vote for, but he Ghost in the Machine May 2014 #42

His tribe. SolutionisSolidarity May 2014 #58

debbie was-shultz said the same thing about people claiming the gop was rigging elections leftyohiolib May 2014 #26

....and one of the main reasons I don't particularly care for her... truebrit71 May 2014 #81

He should have directed that to the tea party and its New World Order conspiracy theorists. pampango May 2014 #30

Any idea what nationalize the fed May 2014 #33

Oh, they all strung those three words together. I think that tea partiers take those words to mean pampango May 2014 #51

But you can't criticize Republicans, you have to reach across the aisle and work together! Scootaloo May 2014 #40

Yeah, got to be 'bipartisan', I guess. But it causes much consternation among liberals who pampango May 2014 #55

his comments are directed at liberals noiretextatique May 2014 #160

What makes you say that? Conservatives rely on conspiracy theories much more than liberals. pampango May 2014 #209

you think republicons are really against tpp? noiretextatique May 2014 #238

Depends on whether you are talking about their politicians or their base. pampango May 2014 #239

Why? ProSense May 2014 #196

Just because there's a conspiracy theory doesn't mean there's no conspiracy... nt backscatter712 May 2014 #34

Money. Octafish May 2014 #224

Trust but verify? Enthusiast May 2014 #35

I'm a hard sell on conspiracy theories Jack Rabbit May 2014 #38

The conspiracy is no longer a theory. HooptieWagon May 2014 #60

Perfectly said! arcane1 May 2014 #61

The President knows full well that we don't want this TPP thing. Enthusiast May 2014 #39

Because it isn't the voters that grease his palms. nt NorthCarolina May 2014 #169

in secret behind our backs. thanks, obama nt msongs May 2014 #41

Secret Government is Democracy's most pressing problem. Octafish May 2014 #203

NO, he didn't. jazzimov May 2014 #43

For the side show of irrelevance: He also indicated the Democratic Party has conspiracy theories. Octafish May 2014 #48

Just starting to post that paragraph you have in red. madfloridian May 2014 #73

Would not the words "objections" and "protests" cover "real concerns"? JoePhilly May 2014 #78

You are right, nothing we say matters in DC. That is obvious, and that paragraph is amazing. sabrina 1 May 2014 #90

That's what the Princeton/Northwestern study found... Octafish May 2014 #98

How do people defend this nonsense? TiberiusB May 2014 #131

What a surprise treestar May 2014 #109

Obama Dog Whistled: grahamhgreen May 2014 #174

You can't stop it. Tobin S. May 2014 #44

This treaty will join the Constitution as the highest law of the land. JDPriestly May 2014 #50

It may not sit well with you, but that's the way it is. Tobin S. May 2014 #63

What you are talking about is not capitalism. It's corporatism. JDPriestly May 2014 #67

Okay, put in corporatism where I said capitalism. Same deal for the rest of the post. n/t Tobin S. May 2014 #70

so why does business push globalism when... grasswire May 2014 #71

A lot of business people buy into the idea Tobin S. May 2014 #74

Perhaps there is something we can do. In fact you sort of suggested it. sabrina 1 May 2014 #83

Maybe so, sabrina. Nice post. n/t Tobin S. May 2014 #87

I know that's where my head is at. magical thyme May 2014 #92

Savvy business peopel have been thinking on a global scale for at least truedelphi May 2014 #114

We have tools, we just need to use them The Green Manalishi May 2014 #178

Boy, you can really tell when a Third Way type doesn't need your vote anymore. /nt Marr May 2014 #45

What was that about being more free to pursue his agenda during the second term? woo me with science May 2014 #68

Yep-- I think about that line from time to time myself. Marr May 2014 #106

Setting aside conspiracy theories, the reality in these trade agreements is that they JDPriestly May 2014 #46

Very important post. Thank you, JDPriestly. Octafish May 2014 #231

if it's so fucking great, why is it so fucking secret? KG May 2014 #47

There it is in a nutshell. n/t Raksha May 2014 #112

+1000000000 woo me with science May 2014 #120

Because it's not so great? joshcryer May 2014 #135

K & R !!! WillyT May 2014 #49

Parent less children abelenkpe May 2014 #52

It's as if the human costs weren't even an afterthought. Octafish May 2014 #189

Well that does it then, I am all for the TPP. zeemike May 2014 #53

Ugh BlindTiresias May 2014 #54

Did you actually read the exact quote? brett_jv May 2014 #191

THIS is why he needs to keep it a secret: bvar22 May 2014 #56

TPP Would Mean a Pay Cut for 90% of U.S. Workers Octafish May 2014 #183

Doing nothing may be worse. Hoyt May 2014 #187

For whom? The Council on Foreign Relations? Octafish May 2014 #220

Others come to different conclusions. Hoyt May 2014 #225

Not one of those charts shows American workers gaining jobs. Octafish May 2014 #230

Maintaining jobs is also important in a global market. Like I said, things could be worse doin nutin Hoyt May 2014 #233

Wages were flat for 20 years (fell for 7 years right) before NAFTA, rose from 1994-2000 then pampango May 2014 #226

Says the man who fredamae May 2014 #59

Dear Mr. President: Brigid May 2014 #64

Yup...that's why this is being called "Shafta"... truebrit71 May 2014 #86

K&R DeSwiss May 2014 #66

And the jury results are in... aikoaiko May 2014 #89

If and when words and/or their order of delivery...... DeSwiss May 2014 #93

Outstanding post, DeSwiss. Octafish May 2014 #95

De nada DeSwiss May 2014 #99

And... KoKo May 2014 #130

''Unbecoming is becoming the norm.'' DeSwiss May 2014 #144

+100000000 woo me with science May 2014 #188

So how about you open up the negotiations then? truebrit71 May 2014 #80

It's not a theory n2doc May 2014 #96

Hoo-boy. He's completely jumped the shark Doctor_J May 2014 #100

Is it telling that only one bobduca May 2014 #101

Smoochy, moochy...nt SidDithers May 2014 #104

sneer bobduca May 2014 #110

that is just insulting G_j May 2014 #103

Phew...that stinks TheKentuckian May 2014 #107

Great stuff as always, Octafish. nt navarth May 2014 #108

Doesn't really matter what is going on in negotiations. Congress must approve any proposed agreement Hoyt May 2014 #111

True, the conspiracy may well fail. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Jim Lane May 2014 #115

Since it's secret, we don't really know. And it won't be fast-tracked, so Hoyt May 2014 #116

That's what Obama was saying. joshcryer May 2014 #133

Who knows what will happen in January? Octafish May 2014 #184

Right. Obama is planning to throw the election to GOP. They will then, Hoyt May 2014 #186

I didn't say that, but I do know I don't know what will happen. Octafish May 2014 #198

Like you say, you don't know but you are sure Obama will screw us. Hoyt May 2014 #199

Right you are, based on his record. Octafish May 2014 #201

Washington Examiner... SidDithers May 2014 #204

So, you're OK with Geithner sacrificing millions of homeowners? Octafish May 2014 #205

So you're OK using far-rightwing sources to support your criticisms of the Obama administration?..nt SidDithers May 2014 #206

LOL. Octafish May 2014 #212

BBI was a big fan of right-wing sources too... SidDithers May 2014 #213

Threats are so you. Octafish May 2014 #215

And you have a history of using right-wing asshats for sources... SidDithers May 2014 #216

I've 40,000 posts, maybe 4,000 OPs. None support the rightwing. Octafish May 2014 #218

Delaying foreclosures was a bad thing? Hoyt May 2014 #208

No, which is why the administration's actions were so reprehensible. Octafish May 2014 #214

I hope enough members of congress are conspiracy theorists. clg311 May 2014 #113

Ditto--we have our work cut out for us emsimon33 May 2014 #119

I trust such people as Elizabeth Warren before I trust Obama any more emsimon33 May 2014 #117

For me, it is heartbreaking and disgusting at the same time. Octafish May 2014 #200

Spoken like a true corporatist. roomtomove May 2014 #121

And what about the TTIP? roomtomove May 2014 #122

Programmed by Penny Pritzker Octafish May 2014 #235

I don't agree with the TPP, but I disagree that the US Government criminal or evil davidpdx May 2014 #123

You say that like it's a bad thing. Brigid May 2014 #172

Well, I'm saying is I admit it davidpdx May 2014 #217

This is what you get when you vote for whoever sucks less. L0oniX May 2014 #124

Nothing theoretical about it. It is harmful, and they are trying like hell to ram it through. GoneFishin May 2014 #126

*sigh* Phlem May 2014 #127

Real "double speak" from Mr. Obama. blkmusclmachine May 2014 #129

"President Obama lacks knowledge" joshcryer May 2014 #132

"Obama calls critics of TPP secrecy 'Conspiracy Theorists'" Phlem May 2014 #134

They are. TPP secrecy is typical for trade agreements. joshcryer May 2014 #137

Thanks for clearing that up. I read your previous post with a different tone. Phlem May 2014 #141

Obama would love to have TPP part of his legacy. joshcryer May 2014 #161

Plus to keep dumping corn and soybeans, everywhere (nt) Recursion May 2014 #157

And, that might be overly kind. It's amazing he remains so cool with some of this criticism. Hoyt May 2014 #139

Not so much when you consider his term is done. Phlem May 2014 #142

Except, he's not. Hoyt May 2014 #146

Oh, OK then. Phlem May 2014 #149

Of course people have a "lack of knowledge" -- BECAUSE HE AND HIS F'n CRONIES WONT REVEAL ANYTHING Armstead May 2014 #136

What was wrong in NAFTA? It preceded the only increase in real wages in the past 40 years. Recursion May 2014 #138

Or tech workers? Phlem May 2014 #143

And how did NAFTA impact that decision to move operations? Recursion May 2014 #145

My 3D game job got shipped to India or China. There was an operation in our company Phlem May 2014 #147

And what does NAFTA have to do with that? (nt) Recursion May 2014 #148

My job was gone after NAFTA passed. Phlem May 2014 #150

Right, but NAFTA didn't impact trade with Asia, at all Recursion May 2014 #151

It was the signal for Companies to start off shoring. Phlem May 2014 #154

They started offshoring in the 1960's. How did NAFTA signal that 30 years before? Recursion May 2014 #155

Oh I don't know Phlem May 2014 #156

I'm waiting for that answer too. Hoyt May 2014 #152

Here's what's wrong with NAFTA. Octafish May 2014 #221

+1000000000 HooptieWagon May 2014 #229

Whatever happened to iamthebandfanman May 2014 #140

As their supporters. Phlem May 2014 #158

Wow, he just called anyone who believes it is correct to question our leaders an "N" word. fleabiscuit May 2014 #159

How transparent of him. nt silvershadow May 2014 #162

Who promised the US voter the most transparent administration ever? merrily May 2014 #164

Same person who said he'd fix NAFTA? Octafish May 2014 #223

Dear Barack, Scuba May 2014 #167

It's not a theory Oilwellian May 2014 #168

Release the damn thing then! Why keep it a secret? newfie11 May 2014 #170

+1 grahamhgreen May 2014 #175

One reason, it's not finished. I don't think any of it has been presented to Congress. Hoyt May 2014 #182

It's not a theory. Iraq has WMD - that was a theory. grahamhgreen May 2014 #173

WMD wasn't a theory, either IDemo May 2014 #176

Right! It was just a conspiracy! grahamhgreen May 2014 #219

The Oligarchs and owners of this country have pushed us so far to the right randys1 May 2014 #177

So all the Unions who worked so hard to get him in office are now conspiracy nuts ? classykaren May 2014 #179

Nobel Prize went to the fired economist who pointed out the real issues in global finance. Octafish May 2014 #185

People, you really need to read the actual quote instead of slurping the spin of this 'article'. brett_jv May 2014 #193

Well brett_jv... 99Forever May 2014 #195

Well, ProSense May 2014 #197

When a group conspires to keep and enact something in secret - that is a conspiracy on point May 2014 #202

It will not be enacted in secrecy. Hoyt May 2014 #210

Phew! bobduca May 2014 #211

Apparently, transparency at work. Yep, right! Guess I'm a CT'er too RKP5637 May 2014 #227

Well, when you do things in secrecy and have no transparency.... NCTraveler May 2014 #228

K&R raouldukelives May 2014 #234

his actions only foster proliferation of conspiracy theories 0rganism May 2014 #236

I would like to know how one supports a policy deal made in secret. n/t Jefferson23 May 2014 #237