General Discussion

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)

133. He fought for NAFTA and SIGNED the damn welfare persecution bill.

Fri Nov 14, 2014, 04:01 AM

Nov 2014

He should have withdrawn NAFTA, since he knew it screwed American workers, and he should have either made them pass the welfare bill over his veto(Democrats are SUPPOSED to defend the poor when they are put under unfair attack, and there' s no indications that anyone who wanted people on welfare punished agreed with the basic Democratic positions on much of anything else)or let it go into effect without his signature.

Nobody ever moved the goalposts on DOMA, we all always said he should have vetoed it. Signing on to that didn't give him any new votes.

It matters how you respond with core values are unpopular or under attack. And it matters that HRC was totally with him on all of that.

It disqualifies both of them.

If you're willing to throw workers, gays AND the poor under the bus, you're on the other side. End of discussion.

Why are you trying to rehabilitate these two when they have NOTHING to offer and have no capacity for growth or change?

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Are either of the Clintons Liberals? [View all] MannyGoldstein Nov 2014 OP

They're both pro-business, conservative Democrats Warpy Nov 2014 #1

Somehow, I don't think they'll care whether you'll be "happy" about it (eom) Seeking Serenity Nov 2014 #49

No, they don't care. Baitball Blogger Nov 2014 #74

Define "Liberals". nt uppityperson Nov 2014 #2

The OPs def of "liberal" dosn't include 90% of the population baldguy Nov 2014 #43

The definition that the OP didn't give? MannyGoldstein Nov 2014 #45

Please provide your definition, then. baldguy Nov 2014 #51

So you want me to bias the poll MannyGoldstein Nov 2014 #59

You're as "unbiased" as Fox News. baldguy Nov 2014 #71

Just so you know Alittleliberal Nov 2014 #85

Thr OPs purpose is to criticize Democrats, no matter what their ideological bent is. baldguy Nov 2014 #87

Where did you get that idea from? Alittleliberal Nov 2014 #89

The author of the OP is certainly free to clarify, as I & several other have requested. baldguy Nov 2014 #90

Are you trying to redbait Manny? Ken Burch Nov 2014 #92

"Redbait"? That's a meaningless term in this context. baldguy Nov 2014 #93

So you're claiming Manny is a closet right-winger? Ken Burch Nov 2014 #95

His objective is to play Democrats & liberals for fools for his own amusement. baldguy Nov 2014 #98

"he always seems to attack the liberal Democrats" Union Scribe Nov 2014 #144

Wait, is that a trick question? ozone_man Nov 2014 #155

Drop the mic, bald guy. Game, set, and match! 11 Bravo Nov 2014 #148

lol, no kidding. Marr Nov 2014 #83

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting Andy823 Nov 2014 #60

No definition makes the results mean only what each individual thinks it means, totally subjective. uppityperson Nov 2014 #63

Which is actually what I was curious to measure. MannyGoldstein Nov 2014 #70

uh...WHAT definition? I didn't see one in the OP. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #68

85%. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #84

Yes, the OP is certainly concerned with *labels* baldguy Nov 2014 #88

Of course they are. joshcryer Nov 2014 #3

On what other policies have they been consistently MannyGoldstein Nov 2014 #5

Read the Democratic Party platform. joshcryer Nov 2014 #12

They were to the right of most Americans on LGBT civil rights, MannyGoldstein Nov 2014 #14

I don't think the Democratic Party platform represents most Americans. joshcryer Nov 2014 #18

Looking at it now... nothing jumps out as being to the left of most Americans MannyGoldstein Nov 2014 #21

Look up the socialism/capitalism perceptions poll. joshcryer Nov 2014 #30

Maddow: Conservatives Love Liberal Policies, Except When They Learn That Obama Supports Them JonLP24 Nov 2014 #34

Most Americans don't know what they are, but they don't like sudden change. n/t KMOD Nov 2014 #19

They hold right-of-center positions on foreign policy and economics. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #40

Thank you.. sendero Nov 2014 #57

yeah, LGBT rights, women's rights, civil rights, reproductive rights don't "truly matter" YoungDemCA Nov 2014 #146

If you cannot eat.. sendero Nov 2014 #147

I didn't mean they didn't matter. Of course they matter. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #152

Oh, yes, social policies are "bourgeois side issues." joshcryer Nov 2014 #100

Politics is mostly economics and foreign policy isn't small potatoes. Add in the support TheKentuckian Nov 2014 #44

But you have to admit that Hillary embraced gay marriage before MannyGoldstein Nov 2014 #46

Ok, moderate on orientation equality then. Check. TheKentuckian Nov 2014 #62

Social issues are inherently economic issues. joshcryer Nov 2014 #101

What the Clintons are "liberal" never leads to real change and never threaten the powers-that-be. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #106

That's crazy. joshcryer Nov 2014 #109

The Berlin Wall fell because East European states turned "socialism" into a code word for repression Ken Burch Nov 2014 #114

I posit that the biggest challenge to that is social. joshcryer Nov 2014 #116

I agree with you on THOSE issues Ken Burch Nov 2014 #120

The Clinton's don't agree on these issues? joshcryer Nov 2014 #123

We have their records in the offices they held. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #125

A vote? A quote? joshcryer Nov 2014 #127

We have their records in office. We know what they actually did. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #128

I don't know what you're talking about. joshcryer Nov 2014 #129

He fought for NAFTA and SIGNED the damn welfare persecution bill. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #133

Welfare passed on the third vote. joshcryer Nov 2014 #135

Maybe the welfare bill was going to pass anyway, but he didn't have to SIGN the damn thing. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #136

So he doesn't sign it. joshcryer Nov 2014 #137

He could have left the welfare bill become law without his signature. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #138

Hillary Clinton was more liberal than Elizabeth Warren. joshcryer Nov 2014 #140

The fall of the Berlin Wall had a lot to do with economics Art_from_Ark Nov 2014 #121

Cultural influence eroded the Eastern Bloc. joshcryer Nov 2014 #122

I had a couple of professors who were very knowledgeable about the USSR Art_from_Ark Nov 2014 #126

So, by your previous logic that Clinton is only conservative on economics and foreign policy TheKentuckian Nov 2014 #141

Two baby boomer culture warriors who went to Yale Dawson Leery Nov 2014 #4

Or their response to the era. polichick Nov 2014 #7

Precisely. Read Hillary's thesis. joshcryer Nov 2014 #16

Don't ask, don't tell, KMOD Nov 2014 #17

It's a nice feature of our democracy. joshcryer Nov 2014 #20

Things went fast during FDR's tenure as President MannyGoldstein Nov 2014 #22

Not quite the same as now though. KMOD Nov 2014 #26

That's a plot of bad mistakes tularetom Nov 2014 #91

And those "mistakes" are bigger than any small bits of good they may have done or ever could do. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #94

Yes, people are fallible. joshcryer Nov 2014 #97

Krugman made one mistake. They made right-wing choice after right-wing choice. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #103

What choices? joshcryer Nov 2014 #107

No sigificant number of progressive politicians agreed with the Clintons on the bulk of those issues Ken Burch Nov 2014 #112

Was signing off on Gramm-Leach-Bliley a liberal thing to do? valerief Nov 2014 #6

Both are Liberal Republicans. Zen Democrat Nov 2014 #8

Yes, they are both liberals. n/t KMOD Nov 2014 #9

I would say they are both moderates. Rex Nov 2014 #10

At least they weren't Republicans till age 46 frazzled Nov 2014 #11

Go for it. MannyGoldstein Nov 2014 #15

Manny is a little myopic when it comes to ID'ing Republicans. baldguy Nov 2014 #73

You better believe it! zappaman Nov 2014 #82

Of course not. darkangel218 Nov 2014 #13

They might not be liberal, but they've done more to advance and preserve liberal causes Ykcutnek Nov 2014 #23

What would you consider to be their greatest Liberal successes? Nt MannyGoldstein Nov 2014 #24

I'm gonna throw that question back at you, KMOD Nov 2014 #31

Signing that evil freaking welfare bill. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #67

Don't forget 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' and DOMA. nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #86

They're cynical self-promoters whose political ideologies center around advancing their own careers Azathoth Nov 2014 #25

Him, mostly not. Jeff Rosenzweig Nov 2014 #27

Me? I'm a Glenn-Greenwald Libertarian. nt MannyGoldstein Nov 2014 #32

Ah. Jeff Rosenzweig Nov 2014 #35

Thanks, it all make sense now. KMOD Nov 2014 #37

You are new-ish so I'll help you out. Manny was joking. Luminous Animal Nov 2014 #81

ahhh, thanks. KMOD Nov 2014 #99

Bwahahaha! I love it when you Colbert someone, I really do! n/t djean111 Nov 2014 #41

Yeah, but from now until I'm banned, MannyGoldstein Nov 2014 #47

Burn the Witch! SolutionisSolidarity Nov 2014 #77

Who the truth comes out. nt Andy823 Nov 2014 #76

So, Greenwald's running for President? Old and In the Way Nov 2014 #108

Personally, I don't think so Prophet 451 Nov 2014 #28

They belong to the Clinton Party. Half-Century Man Nov 2014 #29

There seems to be radical lefts along with radical rights, too far is not good. Thinkingabout Nov 2014 #33

Yup, and people despise both. KMOD Nov 2014 #36

Is media consolidation liberal? OnyxCollie Nov 2014 #38

Neo. GeorgeGist Nov 2014 #39

Liberal on social issues, conservative on economic issues n/t eridani Nov 2014 #42

Exactly. It's how 3rd was is described here and internationally HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #58

I voted "other" Seeking Serenity Nov 2014 #48

Rising wages, declining unemployment, advancing social causes. Bill made mistakes so he is not a pampango Nov 2014 #50

Hillary Clinton was 13th most liberal Senator. joshcryer Nov 2014 #104

They're not going to let facts get in the way of a good hate-on. baldguy Nov 2014 #111

on social issues like abortion and gay rights - yes Douglas Carpenter Nov 2014 #52

neo-liberals both. nt LWolf Nov 2014 #53

They are neo-lib. nt TBF Nov 2014 #54

They are good Democrats. They maybe more centrist than Warren or Sanders but they are hrmjustin Nov 2014 #55

Burn the heretics!!!! JoePhilly Nov 2014 #56

The masses don't WANT our party to be to the right of where it is now. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #134

Actually, the GOP put forward the most right wing candidates possible. JoePhilly Nov 2014 #142

This thread isn't about purging anyone. It's asking a legitimate question. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #149

Yes, the GOP put forward right-wing crazyheads and they won. Ken Burch Nov 2014 #150

Other RobinA Nov 2014 #61

They're "liberal" in the same sense that anyone who wears cowboy boots is a cowboy. Tierra_y_Libertad Nov 2014 #64

How liberal is liberal? Orsino Nov 2014 #65

Not by my measure, but few people are. hunter Nov 2014 #66

to say they are not, you have to be in a liberal bubble treestar Nov 2014 #69

Liberal in their personal lives, but conservative in execution of their public work. Baitball Blogger Nov 2014 #72

I think they are mostly conservatives. mylye2222 Nov 2014 #75

To me, liberal means centrist, so yes. Starry Messenger Nov 2014 #78

Not as liberal as Nixon!!! zappaman Nov 2014 #79

They don't even self identify as liberals. SolutionisSolidarity Nov 2014 #80

Just looking at this poll.... fadedrose Nov 2014 #96

Good thing DU represents about 0.0 percent of Democrats, eh? leftofcool Nov 2014 #119

Depends on your outlook. fadedrose Nov 2014 #132

This message was self-deleted by its author Old and In the Way Nov 2014 #102

United we stand, divided we fall. baldguy Nov 2014 #105

Because this guy is slicket and smarter than most GOP operatives. Old and In the Way Nov 2014 #110

Corrosive ... that's a very good description. baldguy Nov 2014 #113

He'll be flagging t his post soon. Old and In the Way Nov 2014 #115

That's today's DU for you: The Democrats get TS'd and the Democrat haters get kudos. baldguy Nov 2014 #117

Just edit or self-delete. joshcryer Nov 2014 #118

Why? Old and In the Way Nov 2014 #130

+a million and another million after that. But I agree with Josh, you should self delete or edit Number23 Nov 2014 #131

Hahahaha! No. PeteSelman Nov 2014 #124

Nope. Neoliberals and corrupt to the core. woo me with science Nov 2014 #139

yes, in the same way as Justo Rufino Barrios or the guys who destroyed Canudos MisterP Nov 2014 #143

Of course. YoungDemCA Nov 2014 #145

159-31 say no. what does that tell you? JeffHead Nov 2014 #151

It tells me on DU this poll attracted VERY LIBERAL voters! BillZBubb Nov 2014 #154

Well this is kind of a VERY LIBERAL website, So what did you expect? JeffHead Nov 2014 #158

I think it says that DU is more savvy then the general public. n/t ozone_man Nov 2014 #156

I don't agree YoungDemCA Nov 2014 #157

They are both liberals to an extent. BillZBubb Nov 2014 #153