General Discussion

Octafish

(55,745 posts)

82. Not a thesis. It's what the documentary record shows.

Mon Feb 16, 2015, 12:50 PM

Feb 2015

John Newman explains in detail how CIA and Pentagon officials painted two different pictures: One for President Kennedy, apparently so he wouldn't realize how dire the situation really was; and another for Vice President Johnson, closer to reality.

Newman details this in "Back Channel to the Vice President," pages 225-229 of "JFK and Vietnam: Deception, Intrigue, and the Struggle for Power."

Where was the Vice President's information coming from? Burris says he "got a lot of raw information." (7) When pressed for his exact sources he replied, "We got it from everywhere." In a more revealing memo on another occasion he said: "They'd hand you a copy of a memo. You'd get stuff from the boys in the woodwork. Later McCone put a stop to what I was doing." Newman, p. 227

The above is from the original edition. Reprints may have it on another page.

If you haven't read it, KingCharlemagne, I think you'd get a lot out of it.

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Highlight:

President Kennedy wanted to keep USA out of Vietnam [View all] Octafish Feb 2015 OP

JFK made it abundantly clear to many people hifiguy Feb 2015 #1

John F. Kennedy's Vision of Peace Octafish Feb 2015 #25

The CIA Should Be Disbanded. Kennedy got it right. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #75

Frank Church warned us in 1975 about the secret government and secret power. Octafish Feb 2015 #81

Just think, if this policy had prevailed, I would have missed jaysunb Feb 2015 #2

How many trips did you make a broad? HereSince1628 Feb 2015 #7

LOL ! jaysunb Feb 2015 #10

Yes killing Kommunists for Freedom warrant46 Feb 2015 #22

I'm still conflicted about LBJ jaysunb Feb 2015 #34

Halliburton Deals Recall Vietnam-Era Controversy Octafish Feb 2015 #39

IIRC the second volume of Robert Caro's LBJ biography hifiguy Feb 2015 #53

They are bad, real bad, JonLP24 Feb 2015 #80

Look at foreign policy & domestic spying JonLP24 Feb 2015 #78

Same here brother, same here. GGJohn Feb 2015 #37

No he didn't or he wouldn't have escalated the war like he did during his presidency. Drunken Irishman Feb 2015 #3

Are you questioning the authenticity of NSAM 263? RufusTFirefly Feb 2015 #5

Outstanding post, Rufus! hifiguy Feb 2015 #6

Thanks! And to answer your question: Yes, I have! RufusTFirefly Feb 2015 #8

Outstanding book. H2O Man Feb 2015 #17

Yikes! Didn't even know about the Gandhi book RufusTFirefly Feb 2015 #24

It didn't get H2O Man Feb 2015 #32

I'm looking forward to reading it. RufusTFirefly Feb 2015 #35

I am not questioning Kennedy's words. Drunken Irishman Feb 2015 #9

I guess you do not know what back-channels means. Rex Feb 2015 #29

I don't doubt Kennedy tried to find a diplomatic end. Drunken Irishman Feb 2015 #31

Oh I do completely, by his second term. Rex Feb 2015 #33

Well it's not like Vietnam turned nuclear anyway. Drunken Irishman Feb 2015 #40

It easily could have, if John Foster Dulles and Allen Dulles had their way. Octafish Feb 2015 #50

Many of those who disagree with you (and me) begin their posts with the words "I believe." That KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #68

+1 n/t jaysunb Feb 2015 #70

You're trying to talk facts into this debate YoungDemCA Feb 2015 #63

''This is a sacred cow here. An article of faith among Camelot believers.'' Octafish Feb 2015 #84

Respectfully disagree. H2O Man Feb 2015 #16

I think his decision making in 1963 warrants at least a debate on the matter. Drunken Irishman Feb 2015 #27

Interesting. H2O Man Feb 2015 #42

Remarks of Senator John F. Kennedy on Indochina before the Senate, Washington, D.C., April 6, 1954 Octafish Feb 2015 #44

Excellent ! n/t jaysunb Feb 2015 #72

JFK toured Vietnam in 1951... Octafish Feb 2015 #73

this is one of the reasons heaven05 Feb 2015 #4

Bingo we have a winner! workinclasszero Feb 2015 #19

No, he really didn't Spider Jerusalem Feb 2015 #11

JFK’s Embrace of Third World Nationalists Octafish Feb 2015 #46

The CIA didn't much care for Kennedy. blkmusclmachine Feb 2015 #12

Just the bad apples who contracted the Mafia to murder heads of state. Octafish Feb 2015 #38

The George Bush Center for Intelligence is the headquarters of the Central Intelligence Agency blkmusclmachine Feb 2015 #13

Pic URL: blkmusclmachine Feb 2015 #14

Meanwhile, in regards to Cuba.... YoungDemCA Feb 2015 #15

Just before his assassination, President Kennedy ordered secret peace talks with Castro Octafish Feb 2015 #49

It can be safely said Castro and Khrushchev were hifiguy Feb 2015 #54

Which is so weird how the evidentiary trail led right to them. Octafish Feb 2015 #55

According to Douglass there were at least two hifiguy Feb 2015 #56

"This is a story that I don't see mentioned very often" YoungDemCA Feb 2015 #61

So when you can't find anything to support your POV, resort to condescension, YoungDemCA. Octafish Feb 2015 #67

This a a good discussion & debate - FairWinds Feb 2015 #18

George H.W. Bush was in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963. Octafish Feb 2015 #69

Not to mention JFK was also going to obliterate the CIA 99th_Monkey Feb 2015 #20

JFK famously said after the Bay of Pigs hifiguy Feb 2015 #28

Back channel negotiations with Khrushchev. roamer65 Feb 2015 #21

Secret Government is why the pendulum won't swing back. Octafish Feb 2015 #52

All due respect, but the verdict of professional historians who have examined the KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #23

JFK would have pulled the plug on it. roamer65 Feb 2015 #58

John M. Newman, in ''JFK and Vietnam'' documented the sordid history. Octafish Feb 2015 #71

Since your extract mentions Kaiser's "American Tragedy" in its final paragraph, it is KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #76

Not a thesis. It's what the documentary record shows. Octafish Feb 2015 #82

We are now come full circle. If JFK was being fed info that led hiim to believe the KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #85

So Oliver Stone was right. That's what he said after his movie JFK came out. nt Damansarajaya Feb 2015 #26

lol. nt BootinUp Feb 2015 #47

''I will never send draftees over there to fight.'' Octafish Feb 2015 #48

He wanted a complete withdraw, but the MICIA said no way. Rex Feb 2015 #30

JFK would never fall for phony intel like Gulf of Tonkin. Octafish Feb 2015 #74

I have tried to get folks to view "Evidence of Revision" 1-6 on YouTube. kelliekat44 Feb 2015 #36

Thank you, kelliekat44! Octafish Feb 2015 #83

That's probably why the Fascists killed him. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #41

Agreed, Almost Certainly colsohlibgal Feb 2015 #43

The evidence that Oswald was "just a patsy" is undeniable. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #51

I remember seeing the clip where Oswald makes the "patsy" statement. hifiguy Feb 2015 #57

Better yet, look up the video of Jack Ruby saying "If Adlai Stevenson had been VP..." N/t roamer65 Feb 2015 #59

I deny it. As does Oswald's brother, for that matter. YoungDemCA Feb 2015 #62

K&R woo me with science Feb 2015 #45

Peter Dale Scott did the yeoman's work on JFK and Vietnam issue. Octafish Feb 2015 #86

November 22, 1963 was a coup d'état masked by an assassination...plain and simple. roamer65 Feb 2015 #60

JFK knew what he was getting into in Dallas. He had survived an attempt in Chicago... Octafish Feb 2015 #89

I have always suspected JFK was killed for his opposition to that war. Special Prosciuto Feb 2015 #64

Kennedy had too much potential to help the common people. There is even a rumor that he was dissentient Feb 2015 #65

Flying Saucer bullshit began in 1947, with the hallucinating "pilot" Kenneth Arnold Special Prosciuto Feb 2015 #66

He also shot down Operation Northwoods JonLP24 Feb 2015 #77

John Aschcroft stopped flying commercial airliners in July 2001 based on a 'threat assessment.' Octafish Feb 2015 #87

I was actually looking up black market nuclear history as well as overall nuclear history JonLP24 Feb 2015 #90

We really don't know what JFK would've done with Vietnam. He didn't want to make a decision until craigmatic Feb 2015 #79

At this point madville Feb 2015 #88

Interesting thread. K&R nt Electric Monk Feb 2015 #91