General Discussion

Orrex

(66,183 posts)

157. No one has implied causation

Wed Feb 25, 2015, 01:34 PM

Feb 2015

And, since no one has implied causation, I have no obligation to defend claims of causation.

Instead, the link is correctly drawn between the same tactics used in two particular types of bad thinking. No one has suggested that that anti-vax beliefs cause anti-GMO beliefs, nor vice versa. One poster has observed that "Most of the Anti-Vaxxers I know are also Anti-GMO," but even he doesn't assert that one causes the other.

The correlation in this context doesn't mean that one is necessarily associated with the other; it simply means that the proponents of each viewpoint (anti-vax and anti-GMO) have latched onto the same tactics in their zeal to make their claims.

Again, the comparison is far from nonsense. Posters in this thread have demonstrated the validity of the comparison many times over.

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You can't criticize one pseudoscience when supporting another. [View all] alp227 Feb 2015 OP

Not valid katsy Feb 2015 #1

If a personal choice is based on faulty logic, it deserves to be called so. alp227 Feb 2015 #7

Are u serious? katsy Feb 2015 #52

No it's not. Junk science is junk science. nt alp227 Feb 2015 #53

Even if we grant that anti-gmo is junk science mythology Feb 2015 #221

Yes, it does. HuckleB Feb 2015 #223

And anti-GMO people LIE and MISLEAD. Their lies hurt agriculture. alp227 Feb 2015 #240

I have no issue to call out faulty logic. But a choice to eat Non-GMO food.... LynneSin Feb 2015 #56

LOGIC - you are very very wrong SoLeftIAmRight Feb 2015 #205

Huh. HuckleB Feb 2015 #245

That's not where it stops, however. HuckleB Feb 2015 #211

logic fail ND-Dem Feb 2015 #2

Except that vaccines ARE tested and GMOs are NOT tested. immoderate Feb 2015 #3

GMO's ARE TESTED! alp227 Feb 2015 #6

Nonsense. Unlike your 'Popular Science' article, this links to a peer reviewed survey... immoderate Feb 2015 #21

That's not a real study. It's a politically driven survey. alp227 Feb 2015 #23

Can you cite a long term (more than 90 days) study that demonstrates this harmlessness? immoderate Feb 2015 #26

here alp227 Feb 2015 #27

David Tribe? You must be kidding. immoderate Feb 2015 #29

Does he still work for Monsanto? AgingAmerican Feb 2015 #178

there is overwhelming consensus among scientists and health professionals that GMOs are... mike_c Feb 2015 #34

Then you can point me to an independent, long-term study that demonstrates this safety? immoderate Feb 2015 #44

here are links to nearly 1800 such published studies mike_c Feb 2015 #51

I asked for a study, not a do-it-yourself kit. immoderate Feb 2015 #58

now you're just being obtuse, but here you go.... mike_c Feb 2015 #63

LOL! Talk about being obtuse. Which ONE of those says GMOs are safe? Pick the best example. immoderate Feb 2015 #66

dude, you just roll the goal posts all over the place, don't you.... mike_c Feb 2015 #68

So, you couldn't find a single study that fulfills my request? Goalpost condition: STABLE immoderate Feb 2015 #75

I provided you with full citations for nearly 1800 of them.... mike_c Feb 2015 #80

Yeah, but... Dr. Strange Feb 2015 #88

ding ding ding.... mike_c Feb 2015 #97

lol Veilex Feb 2015 #273

Facts? We don't need no damn facts! LTX Feb 2015 #83

That was pretty entertaining! ... 1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #76

Creationists, science deniers, all of 'em show this kind of nonsense don't they? alp227 Feb 2015 #130

Fuck.. way to try and ruin a thread if there weren't enough bullshite in the OP to begin with. Cha Feb 2015 #100

+a million F4lconF16 Feb 2015 #101

you missed one Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2015 #91

Besides this post being a little silly, to me it still misses my concern... Sancho Feb 2015 #144

Um....no. jeff47 Feb 2015 #174

Were the current super bugs known and taught in the 50's and 60's? Sancho Feb 2015 #185

They hadn't evolved yet. We always knew they would though. jeff47 Feb 2015 #187

You are simply wrong... Sancho Feb 2015 #188

You've apparently never actually been treated for a bacterial infection. jeff47 Feb 2015 #192

Look at post 190 for links on antibiotics... Sancho Feb 2015 #275

Again, IT WAS ANTICIPATED. jeff47 Feb 2015 #278

Then you simply refuse to see the obvious... Sancho Feb 2015 #279

BTW, I found this too...I guess the Surgeon General wasn't "we" either.... Sancho Feb 2015 #280

check out this post on DU and the link to an article on antibiotic resistance... Sancho Feb 2015 #190

You not understanding antibiotics and antibiotic resistance does not make for an informative post. jeff47 Feb 2015 #193

At this point I've provided you scholarly references and quotations refuting your position. Sancho Feb 2015 #281

Dayam! My mouse wheel fell off Telcontar Feb 2015 #151

+1,000,000 ... 000 HuckleB Feb 2015 #210

Can you point me to an independent, long-term study that demonstrates organic food is safe? jeff47 Feb 2015 #57

Yes, life is replete with hazards. immoderate Feb 2015 #60

We exist. Therefore, we fuck up the environment. jeff47 Feb 2015 #62

So we agree. immoderate Feb 2015 #64

No, you fear GMOs. I don't. (nt) jeff47 Feb 2015 #65

That too. immoderate Feb 2015 #67

GE is the most predictable and studied of all seed development technologies. HuckleB Feb 2015 #199

How would they know? The GMO producers license the seeds and control who can use them in research. pnwmom Feb 2015 #136

eNews Park Forest, Inc is not a reputable source. Veilex Feb 2015 #272

The science showing GMOs to be safe is incredibly vast and profound. HuckleB Feb 2015 #194

No. immoderate Feb 2015 #196

So, you're choosing to ignore that. HuckleB Feb 2015 #198

Ignore what? immoderate Feb 2015 #206

GMOs have led to decreased pesticide use and more food produced per acre. HuckleB Feb 2015 #207

Increased yields? Less pesticides? Where?? immoderate Feb 2015 #217

The meta-analysis was not limited in scope, nor short term. HuckleB Feb 2015 #218

The article itself admitted the limitations. immoderate Feb 2015 #220

Most cliches tend to be false, especially dramatic ones. HuckleB Feb 2015 #222

Sorry I'm not scientific enough for you. immoderate Feb 2015 #253

You don't seem to be able to discuss the matter in any way, shape, or form. HuckleB Feb 2015 #254

Well, I truly and honestly think the Europeans are OK with labeling. immoderate Feb 2015 #266

in other words, if anti-science propaganda wins the day, you're ok with that. HuckleB Feb 2015 #267

I don't see how labeling what we eat is "anti-science propaganda." immoderate Feb 2015 #274

Question about the people who made this graphic. NCTraveler Feb 2015 #4

Good questions.. apparently this is the guy who did the graphic Cha Feb 2015 #124

"GMO's are good because vaccines" is a faulty arguement. stone space Feb 2015 #5

When did I actually SAY "GMO's are good"? alp227 Feb 2015 #8

That's not the message of the OP. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #16

The "message" in the OP is a blatant fallacy. cheapdate Feb 2015 #55

The point is that the scientific consensus for GMOs and vaccines is the same. HuckleB Feb 2015 #209

The two things aren't remotely comparable. cheapdate Feb 2015 #276

+1. Amazing how some champions of "science" haven't mastered the basic logic it is founded on GreatGazoo Feb 2015 #31

Being able to drown your crops in roundup is as important as eradicating smallpox Chathamization Feb 2015 #95

Your response is evidence that the OP is correct. HuckleB Feb 2015 #212

NYT: "farmers sprayed so much Roundup that weeds quickly evolved to survive it" Chathamization Feb 2015 #214

Superweeds were worse before the advent of GMOs. HuckleB Feb 2015 #215

Dismissing a peer review article in Nature with a blog post? That's only pro-science on opposite day Chathamization Feb 2015 #261

Post removed Post removed Feb 2015 #262

So you didn't bother even looking at your first link? And then you call someboday who did a "liar"? Chathamization Feb 2015 #264

In other words, you claimed to have posted something that you did not. HuckleB Feb 2015 #265

Dishonesty? Your first link is a blog post criticizing a peer reviewed article from Nature. When I Chathamization Feb 2015 #270

Nothing settles an issue more scientifically than a facebook meme whatchamacallit Feb 2015 #9

I think if people want to eat natural food, they can dissentient Feb 2015 #10

Because they demand legistlation that will increase the costs of GMO foods through labeling. dilby Feb 2015 #14

Well that's democracy. There are special interests for just about everything dissentient Feb 2015 #15

But you can certainly call them out and point out dilby Feb 2015 #17

But critics of GMO foods are the first to complain about lobbying Orrex Feb 2015 #18

That's completely different... Dr. Strange Feb 2015 #87

I don't want to eat them if possible upaloopa Feb 2015 #35

How about requiring companies who don't use GMO's to put a label on their food no GMO? dilby Feb 2015 #36

I do see "no GMO" labels that is a good idea upaloopa Feb 2015 #38

They will never replace regular plants. dilby Feb 2015 #50

Actually, given that the growth of population on a finite planet is unsustainable truebluegreen Feb 2015 #152

There is a distinct difference between meat and non-meat products. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #42

I don't want to eat GMO if I can help it. upaloopa Feb 2015 #45

Appeal to nature has never been a legitimate argument. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #49

That is a personal choice upaloopa Feb 2015 #59

No, it's not. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #81

I see you made your choice upaloopa Feb 2015 #110

You're also making an unfair comparison there metalbot Feb 2015 #147

I will say this, you don't have a clue upaloopa Feb 2015 #155

You are the one suggesting to compare a farmer's market tomato to a supermarket tomato metalbot Feb 2015 #160

No you don't get it. The produce in the grocery upaloopa Feb 2015 #162

I don't like plastic tomatoes either Go Vols Feb 2015 #170

I think some younger people will never upaloopa Feb 2015 #172

There are more great tasting fruits and veggies than ever. HuckleB Feb 2015 #225

Where can I get tomatoes that dont rot? Telcontar Feb 2015 #150

They rot but it takes a longer time than organic upaloopa Feb 2015 #154

Really? Why? HuckleB Feb 2015 #226

Because grocery produce has been engineered upaloopa Feb 2015 #228

Citations needed. HuckleB Feb 2015 #229

I don't play that game upaloopa Feb 2015 #231

I'm not playing games. HuckleB Feb 2015 #232

Sure you are upaloopa Feb 2015 #233

So you think this is a game? HuckleB Feb 2015 #235

Look I don't give a shit what you think ok? upaloopa Feb 2015 #244

Awesome. HuckleB Feb 2015 #246

You should be glad to have me to reinforce your narrow minded upaloopa Feb 2015 #249

Life would be so easy if I was actually narrow-minded. HuckleB Feb 2015 #251

Excuse me, but foods are already labeled. Updated regularly. immoderate Feb 2015 #39

apparently their label printer charges by the word GreatGazoo Feb 2015 #92

64 Other Countries manage the cost thing nationalize the fed Feb 2015 #153

Do you have an unbiased source to offer up for those claims? HuckleB Feb 2015 #227

Oh bother. hunter Feb 2015 #11

Anti-science is anti-science. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #12

Or anti-nuclear weapons. stone space Feb 2015 #20

You're not seriously comparing GMOs to nuclear weapons, are you? NuclearDem Feb 2015 #30

How do you know that? stone space Feb 2015 #175

It's completely rational to oppose the use of nuclear weapons. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #176

No one who has replied has addressed any of the claims in the meme Orrex Feb 2015 #13

I did. immoderate Feb 2015 #22

That's not a real study. nt alp227 Feb 2015 #24

And a Facebook photoshop-of-the-day is? Stop. closeupready Feb 2015 #47

The macro has facts. The phony ass "study" doesn't. nt alp227 Feb 2015 #48

You also asserted that GMOs are not tested, which is a false claim. Orrex Feb 2015 #25

I linked to a survey, and it was adddressed, but not refuted. immoderate Feb 2015 #32

Actually, you're still up Orrex Feb 2015 #40

And GMO apologists use the same tactics as climate deniers, tobacco lawyers, ... so? immoderate Feb 2015 #70

You're still up. Orrex Feb 2015 #73

The OP? Pure rhetoric. immoderate Feb 2015 #86

You're still up. Orrex Feb 2015 #89

that's a bogus, fake article in a bogus, fake journal.... mike_c Feb 2015 #43

Why bother when the foundation of the whole argument is made of sand? n/t pnwmom Feb 2015 #138

That would be a good point, if it were true Orrex Feb 2015 #139

Well... HuckleB Feb 2015 #260

Most of the Anti-Vaxxers I know are also Anti-GMO dilby Feb 2015 #19

That's got to be the most ignorant statement of the week... MrMickeysMom Feb 2015 #127

Maybe i found the three for one deal. n/t dilby Feb 2015 #134

I am not convinced that genetically engineering crops for resisantce to organophosphate herbicides cheapdate Feb 2015 #28

Only In America! (eom) CanSocDem Feb 2015 #37

GMOs is much broader than glyphosate resistance. (nt) jeff47 Feb 2015 #69

I'm quite aware that genetic engineering has multiple uses and applications. cheapdate Feb 2015 #72

I think you make a point...but my issue with GMO's is the disclosure, not the science. Sancho Feb 2015 #33

From earlier in this thread: jeff47 Feb 2015 #71

Which is exactly why I made the analogy with tobacco... Sancho Feb 2015 #78

+1 nt F4lconF16 Feb 2015 #102

If that is your argument... HuckleB Feb 2015 #268

Why do you think only one type of seed development technology should be labeled? HuckleB Feb 2015 #208

With today's technology, just about everything should be trackable for any reason... Sancho Feb 2015 #256

Your responses on this thread have been all anti-GMO, so don't pretend otherwise. HuckleB Feb 2015 #257

That's not true. Sancho Feb 2015 #263

Even in this post, you say one thing, but you argue for another. HuckleB Feb 2015 #269

Maybe you don't understand... Sancho Feb 2015 #271

Oh gawd. This again. closeupready Feb 2015 #41

Thanks for making the OP's point. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #46

My choice to not eat GMO foods will not in anyway jeopardize the health of others around me LynneSin Feb 2015 #54

my county has outlawed cultivation of any GMO crops on private land.... mike_c Feb 2015 #85

It sucks what happened in your county but still doesn't justify why someone shouldn't vaccinate LynneSin Feb 2015 #94

it was only recently passed (in Nov).... mike_c Feb 2015 #96

I for one am glad they outlawed GMOs Art_from_Ark Feb 2015 #98

This. F4lconF16 Feb 2015 #103

I'd like see a list of those "hundreds of cases in the United States and Canada" Orrex Feb 2015 #112

Here's something to get you started Art_from_Ark Feb 2015 #135

That document won't open for me. Can you summarize any of these hundreds of cases? Orrex Feb 2015 #140

Here is one of the important parts: Art_from_Ark Feb 2015 #145

But are those cases of accidental cross-pollenation? Orrex Feb 2015 #146

Some are, some aren't Art_from_Ark Feb 2015 #148

In fact, there is a way to tell. Orrex Feb 2015 #149

Creating laws based on fictions and pseudoscience is bad, pure and simple. HuckleB Feb 2015 #203

There are many ways to be harmful central scrutinizer Feb 2015 #61

I don't worry about GMO foods doing anything to me; hedgehog Feb 2015 #74

Percy Schmeiser purposefully infringed and Monsanto still did not "act as a bully...." mike_c Feb 2015 #84

Invalid conflation. Feh. djean111 Feb 2015 #77

Whole lot of GMO manure here. Katashi_itto Feb 2015 #79

A Chuck Lasker graphic? He's the one who calls Hawaiian farmers, moms, doctors... countryjake Feb 2015 #82

Just call me a ******* eco terrorist! I'm on Kauai and we are doing our best to hold monsanto and Cha Feb 2015 #123

Ha! Me, too, Cha! countryjake Feb 2015 #179

Thank you for Waging the battle against the Toxic Conglomerate Roundup-Monsanto.. one and the Cha Feb 2015 #191

Shit! There is NO LAW AGAINST HYPOCRISCY HereSince1628 Feb 2015 #90

It's funny, really RobertEarl Feb 2015 #93

GMO foods are made from melted starfish. Orrex Feb 2015 #99

Eh? RobertEarl Feb 2015 #104

All the time? Not by a long shot. Orrex Feb 2015 #106

Yes, you do. RobertEarl Feb 2015 #113

I'm still not convinced that you really exist. Orrex Feb 2015 #114

You are in denial? RobertEarl Feb 2015 #115

I suspect that you're programmed to believe this. Orrex Feb 2015 #116

Please. Post the PMs RobertEarl Feb 2015 #117

Kooky Orrex Feb 2015 #118

Wow RobertEarl Feb 2015 #119

No one in the history of DU has claimed that radiation can't be harmful Orrex Feb 2015 #120

You call me pig-jeaded? Hahahaha RobertEarl Feb 2015 #121

As opposed to the true BS you post, I suppose Orrex Feb 2015 #125

You are wrong RobertEarl Feb 2015 #126

Kooky Orrex Feb 2015 #128

How old are you? RobertEarl Feb 2015 #129

Old enough to know kooky when I see it. Orrex Feb 2015 #131

Looking in the mirror are you? RobertEarl Feb 2015 #132

A kindergarten rejoinder, and you wonder how old I am? Orrex Feb 2015 #133

Thanks for the reminder that the OP left out a couple points FBaggins Feb 2015 #109

Wait till they hear we also have GMV's - Genetically Modified Viruses Lancero Feb 2015 #105

Superweeds eridani Feb 2015 #107

I am most decidedly Pro-Vaccine Dorian Gray Feb 2015 #108

Avoiding GMO's is at worst, simply benign, while the consequences of avoiding vaccinations... LanternWaste Feb 2015 #111

SO what countries have outlawed vaccinations? Yeah false equivalency sucks and people call you on it Rex Feb 2015 #122

That doesn't actually refute the OP... Orrex Feb 2015 #141

Cite them, which countries both outlaw vaccinations and GMO foods? Rex Feb 2015 #158

In other words, 150+ countries HAVEN'T banned GMO foods. Orrex Feb 2015 #159

There could be a lot of factors IMHO. Glassunion Feb 2015 #186

Anti-vaxx = anti-cigarettes. Anti-vaxxx = anti-nuclear power. Anti-vaxx = anti-pesticides. pnwmom Feb 2015 #137

"The comparison in the OP is nonsense" Orrex Feb 2015 #142

As I said, you could make the same correlations in many other areas, pnwmom Feb 2015 #156

No one has implied causation Orrex Feb 2015 #157

What is nonsense is to imply that just because the opponents of vaccines are unjustified, pnwmom Feb 2015 #161

You are refuting an argument that no one has put forth Orrex Feb 2015 #163

And those who promote GMO's use the same tactics -- for example, print ads -- pnwmom Feb 2015 #164

That's a different argument, and you are free to make it Orrex Feb 2015 #165

In an effort to support GMO's, you have been making what is called an "argument from fallacy." pnwmom Feb 2015 #167

That's a fair objection. Orrex Feb 2015 #168

I agree with everything you just said. pnwmom Feb 2015 #171

I love it... sendero Feb 2015 #143

How are they not analogous? HuckleB Feb 2015 #219

Bill Nye the Science guy on GMO's - for a valanced and sesible perspective: Douglas Carpenter Feb 2015 #166

There is nothing balanced or sensible about it. HuckleB Feb 2015 #195

I'm pro-vaccine / Anti-GMO food Glassunion Feb 2015 #169

Choosing to eat non-GMO foods as much as possible Blue_In_AK Feb 2015 #173

Since GMO foods are reducing pesticide use, land use, and dangerous herbicide use... HuckleB Feb 2015 #197

There is no scientific concensus on the safety of GMOs AgingAmerican Feb 2015 #177

Except for the nearly 1800 studies that say otherwise. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #180

Did you bother reading any of that nonsense? AgingAmerican Feb 2015 #181

I love it when people make the OP's point for them. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #182

How many of these have you read? AgingAmerican Feb 2015 #183

I've read enough of them on my own NuclearDem Feb 2015 #184

There is a definitive consensus. HuckleB Feb 2015 #200

I'm definitely pro-vaccine, and provisionally pro-GMO bhikkhu Feb 2015 #189

Why Vaccine and GMO Denial Should be Treated Equally HuckleB Feb 2015 #201

That's a fantastic article Orrex Feb 2015 #202

Bull Shit Bull Shit Bull Shit SoLeftIAmRight Feb 2015 #204

True enough. HuckleB Feb 2015 #243

Yes, you most certainly can! Most people have blind spots, but that doesn't mean that they should not call out tblue37 Feb 2015 #213

Faulty logic. Vaccines save lives. GMO---make Monsanto profits? McCamy Taylor Feb 2015 #216

Is Monsanto the only GMO seed company? HuckleB Feb 2015 #224

All the giant Chemical Corps have taken over seed companies... countryjake Feb 2015 #230

That's the usual anti-GMO story. HuckleB Feb 2015 #234

Hey Huckle, know the most effective, science-proven, age-old method... countryjake Feb 2015 #247

So, you have no evidence and nothing to say. Got it. HuckleB Feb 2015 #248

Heh heh, you want pictures? countryjake Feb 2015 #252

Looks like you lost track of reality there. HuckleB Feb 2015 #255

The reality... countryjake Feb 2015 #258

Do you realize that superweeds have decreased since the advent of GMOs? HuckleB Feb 2015 #259

Whether or not they are, "Round-up ready" means that you eating Glysophate tainted food. Glysophate bobalew Feb 2015 #236

Citations needed to support your claims. HuckleB Feb 2015 #237

BTW, GMOs are reducing pesticide and land use. HuckleB Feb 2015 #238

Also, round up is much safer than older herbicides, among other benefits... HuckleB Feb 2015 #239

Vinegar, Salt, Glyphosate? Hmm. HuckleB Feb 2015 #241

And always double check those anti-GMO claims before you spread them. They're usually false. HuckleB Feb 2015 #242

Antivaccine versus anti-GMO: Different goals, same methods HuckleB Feb 2015 #250

Actually, you can. Scootaloo Feb 2015 #277