General Discussion

Uncle Joe

(62,372 posts)

15. Like art, the value or non-value of any symbol is determined

Fri Jul 10, 2015, 09:02 PM

Jul 2015

by the prism from which the viewer sees it, what's their reality and perception.

To some people that fly or support the Confederate Flag; it does represent hate, they're racists and of this there is no doubt, you can also see them flying the U.S. Flag.

For many if not most Confederate Flag supporters, it does represent their heritage and they don't view their ancestors as solely or even at all fighting to preserve slavery, there's a multitude of reasons for any person to go to war and to them it's both personal and shared.

Lincoln didn't even go to war to abolish slavery, it was to preserve the Union, the world is gray, history is complex and humans can rise to greatness despite their frailties just as Lincoln did, to the vast majority of Southerners and I believe all Americans, that trait isn't exclusive to one region of the nation, or one race.

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What is Southern Heritage? [View all] Uncle Joe Jul 2015 OP

Antebellum orpupilofnature57 Jul 2015 #1

Thanks for the rec, orpupilofnature, but would you care to elaborate? Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #3

That was when everything for White people was Utopian, freedom from judgment, pride of orpupilofnature57 Jul 2015 #7

The less than 1% dominated both regions and as is the case with most wars Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #8

If a flag does symbolize mainly "heritage", 60% heritage versus 40% racism, for example, that is 40% too much. Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #2

I agree, Fred Sanders, for that matter 10% racism is too much. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #4

The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down AuntPatsy Jul 2015 #5

Thanks for the addition, AuntPatsy, here is Joan Baez's version. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #6

I have strong memories of that song, in High School we studied it, I don't recall AuntPatsy Jul 2015 #33

Have you seen the movie "Cold Mountain?" Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #36

The fictional movie? gollygee Jul 2015 #48

Believe it or not, there are many good fictional movies out there written by white men. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #69

Yes gollygee Jul 2015 #70

Yes it was fiction, but might that movie have had many real life similarities, Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #74

It certainly wasn't pro-war. gollygee Jul 2015 #75

In relation to a story in some instances, they may just not have been there. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #87

Do a quick google search "Population of North Carolina in 1860" gollygee Jul 2015 #100

There weren't as many in the hill country as in the more level areas, Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #124

It's weird that slavery and African Americans were pretty much ignored regardless n/t gollygee Jul 2015 #145

Yes I did, I thought it was an interesting movie, I think what some people get upset about AuntPatsy Jul 2015 #83

I believe it's the eternal battle between emotion and intellect. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #88

A great performance by Joan Baez goldent Jul 2015 #108

Disgusting song. BillZBubb Jul 2015 #17

Listen to the song again, I don't see it the same... AuntPatsy Jul 2015 #34

Try this one . . . . hatrack Jul 2015 #105

So, you wish to take pride in suffering? kwassa Jul 2015 #9

When you have nothing else, you take pride in suffering. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #11

Comparing the suffering of white to black southerners is absurd kwassa Jul 2015 #23

The equivalent of 30 million Americans killed in a four year war and you think that's absurd? Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #27

Slavery was far, far worse gollygee Jul 2015 #53

Touché. That a failed racist nation had to be forcibly made to end racism is no reason to pity Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #61

Meanwhile, the successful racist nation continued to kill "red savages" after the Civil War Art_from_Ark Jul 2015 #91

After one racist nation was defeated the nation that emerged was not as racist as it was imperialistic. Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #103

The north and the post-civil war US as a whole don't get off either gollygee Jul 2015 #104

Indeed. Seems like a lot of folks on the thread are not shocked by the history because they do not know it. Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #106

We too often write the history that is easiest for us to read gollygee Jul 2015 #107

Oh, please Art_from_Ark Jul 2015 #204

not pure, but they didn't have slavery as an institution treestar Jul 2015 #116

No, they just had child labor and horrible working conditions in factories Art_from_Ark Jul 2015 #203

I'm not suggesting that slavery wasn't an evil and ongoing atrocitiy, a major travesty Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #76

I'm sure some people were drafted gollygee Jul 2015 #78

I as a Southerner don't, this OP is my attempt at explaining what "heritage not hatred" Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #84

I'll point you back to post #45 gollygee Jul 2015 #85

MLK said much more, which is extremely difficult for many people to accept. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #127

He did not think "color blind" was an ideal. n/t gollygee Jul 2015 #144

I disagree. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #147

Have you read the articles in post #45 gollygee Jul 2015 #148

Yes I have and my point still stands. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #156

No, it doesn't mean people will be blind to people's color gollygee Jul 2015 #157

Yes we are visual and I'm not speaking of being literallly color blind Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #161

Color blind is 'la la la, I can't see you', a way to dismiss someone... Spazito Jul 2015 #112

That to me is being color blind, from a pyschological standpoint. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #126

When you pull out one statement from a lifetime of work... Spazito Jul 2015 #128

I'm not just pulling one statement, MLK said much more. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #131

There is nothing in those quotes on the subject of 'color blindness'... Spazito Jul 2015 #135

I have read MLK's works and listened to his speeches. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #136

Using Brainy quotes illustrates nothing of substance, imo... Spazito Jul 2015 #137

You have your opinion and I have mine. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #139

and that much worse suffering was due to this evil "heritage" treestar Jul 2015 #117

What is the "equivalent" in the number of slaves? Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #65

No doubt it's atrocious, but that isn't the question posed that I was trying to answer Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #129

It was a war they started. Adrahil Jul 2015 #241

People can still feel an emotional connection to a region, nation or historical event without Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #244

+1000 sheshe2 Jul 2015 #82

In addition, your misuse of MLK is ridiculous. kwassa Jul 2015 #10

MLK was colorblind, he had the ability to look past superficial constructs. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #14

MLK was not colorblind. kwassa Jul 2015 #19

He was as close as you can get, especially for his time. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #21

You've made two errors kwassa Jul 2015 #30

That's illogical, color blind is the ulimate goal for our society to reach Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #32

No, it isn't. kwassa Jul 2015 #37

Does it bother you when you're out in public Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #40

You miss this concept, too. kwassa Jul 2015 #50

Colorblind in that sense SusanCalvin Jul 2015 #55

Color blind in the sense that race is no longer a grounds for pre-concieved notions. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #67

It would be pretty to think so. nt SusanCalvin Jul 2015 #68

the confederate flag represents heaven05 Jul 2015 #177

Your intentions & motivations maybe noble JonLP24 Jul 2015 #182

What I mean by color blind as being an ideal in that skin color means nothing more to the Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #184

liberal to me simply means left of center on the political compass JonLP24 Jul 2015 #190

I believe we're in agreement on the broad issue but I remember for the longest time Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #191

Certainly aware of the effort JonLP24 Jul 2015 #193

"Liberal" became the adjective for giving federal handouts to people that didn't earn Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #195

That is why I think a lot of people here look back fondly to the Reagan days JonLP24 Jul 2015 #197

P.S. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #185

Al Gore was just the first example I could think of JonLP24 Jul 2015 #187

I know you weren't, I just wanted to make my position clear. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #189

I actually tried to look him up recently JonLP24 Jul 2015 #198

Al Gore was just the first example I could think of JonLP24 Jul 2015 #188

No he was not color blind. He was anti-racist and supported affirmative action LostOne4Ever Jul 2015 #43

That's precisely because society isn't colorblind or for that matter gender blind if it were such Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #54

No it wouldn't LostOne4Ever Jul 2015 #56

A little light reading for you. (Hint: Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was not "colorblind") gollygee Jul 2015 #45

Any word can be misused or co-opted the word "liberal" being a prime example. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #63

No, it is not an ideal gollygee Jul 2015 #64

Do white people make pre-concieved assumptions about you because you're black or do black people Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #79

We can't erase people's history gollygee Jul 2015 #80

I know that, gollygee, it will take tremendous amounts of faith, patience, compassion, empathy, Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #86

Don't co-opt their tragedy either gollygee Jul 2015 #101

Do you believe their murderer was uttering a truth? Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #132

That has nothing to do with whether MLK or they believe "color blind" is an ideal n/t gollygee Jul 2015 #142

but a flag of all things is a collective prism treestar Jul 2015 #118

The flag isn't the prism, each person has their own prism, reality or perception and within Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #158

well most people are going to see the confederate battle flag treestar Jul 2015 #168

I believe that statement is true. n/t Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #169

No, you don't seem to understand MLK and substitute memes for real understanding. bettyellen Jul 2015 #199

You are too caught up in the Republican codeword and surrendered its true meaning. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #200

Oh bullshit. I'm too caught up in real life. The colorblind meme is a way of dismissing reality. bettyellen Jul 2015 #201

My colorblind meme and MLK's dream are both in sync, a utopian vision of the future. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #202

Don't you think with the qoute used MLK imagined a confederate flag over that table Person 2713 Jul 2015 #22

I never said that MLK would imagine or envision a Confederate Flag at the table of brotherhood, what Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #25

This message was self-deleted by its author liberaltrucker Jul 2015 #12

But then their heritage is due to their fighting for slavery treestar Jul 2015 #13

Like art, the value or non-value of any symbol is determined Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #15

These flag-flyers don't know real history. kwassa Jul 2015 #20

And being SC was the first to succeed, it's fit they're first to join the 21st century . orpupilofnature57 Jul 2015 #24

Except for a microscopic few, these flag-flyers' ancestors never wrote the articles of secession. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #29

You don't know this. kwassa Jul 2015 #31

Common sense should tell you, the average white Southerner; quite a few of which were illiterate Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #39

So, you made up this statistic. kwassa Jul 2015 #44

You answered your own question? All you have to do is google the total numbers of Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #52

Your argument makes no sense. kwassa Jul 2015 #62

Widespread sentiments kicked up by newspapers in towns that had them and who Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #92

I'll agree the majority of them likely did not own slaves treestar Jul 2015 #115

It was much higher than 1% gollygee Jul 2015 #120

In MS and SC in the 40s treestar Jul 2015 #122

80% of Confederate soldiers were literate. KitSileya Jul 2015 #210

I said "quite a few were illiterate" and 20% or 1 out of 5 Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #211

Like I started ,,Antebellum was enjoyed by not only the 1%, but All White people,, orpupilofnature57 Jul 2015 #98

Maybe they should think of becoming Americans first treestar Jul 2015 #114

that is the specious claim that the civil war was not about slavery. Warren Stupidity Jul 2015 #133

Southern Heritage: Slavery, Treason, and Poverty BillZBubb Jul 2015 #16

Slavery yes, but as Lincoln believed that's also an American Heritage. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #18

You are wrong about regionalism Bad Thoughts Jul 2015 #26

Well here's a Georgia County; that's 92% white, flies the Confederate Flag, its high school Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #28

And the Southern heritage view is based on a myth. kwassa Jul 2015 #35

It is what it is and if they didn't believe in "heritage not hate," I highly doubt Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #38

You missed my point. Completely. kwassa Jul 2015 #42

What is the myth that I'm peddling? Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #46

Already told you. kwassa Jul 2015 #51

When I think of Southern heritage romanic Jul 2015 #41

That works as well, romanic, people have their own take on it. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #47

Thanks romanic Jul 2015 #49

One of the very great things about the South SusanCalvin Jul 2015 #57

There is southern heritage and then there is southern SHAME LostOne4Ever Jul 2015 #58

My racist dad SusanCalvin Jul 2015 #59

Let's listen to the Wailers struggle4progress Jul 2015 #60

Profound post that explains why the Civil War still shapes the American character Octafish Jul 2015 #66

Thanks for the addition, Octafish, no doubt I'm just scratching the surface, Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #72

Now I know why the other thread was started DashOneBravo Jul 2015 #71

When you say 'shared suffering' who are you talking about? Whites and blacks suffered equally? freshwest Jul 2015 #73

If you read the OP, you would know that it was answering a specific question from CTyankee Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #90

What is southern heritage? underthematrix Jul 2015 #77

. struggle4progress Jul 2015 #81

As a Southerner, I understand these complexities FourScore Jul 2015 #89

I appreciate your understandiing. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #93

I am really amazed by this thread. It's like watching toddlers with parallel play. FourScore Jul 2015 #164

I do wish more than anything that people could understand Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #183

As a Northerner ann--- Jul 2015 #110

thank you for supporting my comment with such a prime example. n/t FourScore Jul 2015 #113

I'm from a border state and so cannot understand treestar Jul 2015 #119

My only comment pertaining to race was that the Civil War had an impact FourScore Jul 2015 #160

I see the impact on black people treestar Jul 2015 #166

I understand. There is so much I could say... FourScore Jul 2015 #173

Thank you for your effort. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2015 #94

Thank you, Comrade Grumpy. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #95

Victim of the Brits PATRICK Jul 2015 #96

It's a contradiction no_hypocrisy Jul 2015 #97

My dad was a 'Bama man JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #99

Excellent post! Spazito Jul 2015 #111

Thank you! treestar Jul 2015 #121

Prussia/Germany has one major intangible advantage, they're an ancient nation. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #138

Germany is younger than the US JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #159

Modern day Germany, but not the Germanic Peoples, they fought against Ancient Rome. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #165

Many of us have moved on JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #171

I'm of the mind that economics and easy politics has a play in this as well. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #174

Everybody has a heritage... kentuck Jul 2015 #102

Secession ann--- Jul 2015 #109

What is 'heritage'? What is the meaning of the word of choice here? Does 'heritage' mean 'history'? Bluenorthwest Jul 2015 #123

"Southern Heritage" = "I'm white and that makes me superior by default" I_Like_Hammers Jul 2015 #125

What a pantload. Texasgal Jul 2015 #130

Southern Heritage includes not only slavery but Jim Crow. Warren Stupidity Jul 2015 #134

And the North had nothing to do with Jim Crow? Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #141

And then there are those of us (many of us) frazzled Jul 2015 #140

I agree with the overall theme of your post, frazzled. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #143

I certainly don't know, but perhaps we each could start frazzled Jul 2015 #152

I believe that's a good answer. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #153

Awww, boo hoo, Southern whites suffered from the Civil War ... Arugula Latte Jul 2015 #146

Good argument, no one ever thought of that! Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #149

Thank you. I'm a well-known historian. Arugula Latte Jul 2015 #150

Whatever one chooses it to be. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2015 #151

In paticular, your first and last sentence nail it. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #155

So you celebrate... mentalsolstice Jul 2015 #170

I'm not celebrating here, I'm trying to explain emotional dynamics and Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #172

I understand what you're trying to say - TBF Jul 2015 #154

I have posted many times on this thread, that slavery was an absolute travesty. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #162

It doesn't seem like you answered that question though - TBF Jul 2015 #163

Because the question was aimed Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #167

It was not less than 2% gollygee Jul 2015 #175

You are correct, I was thinking more about the major slave holders. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #176

What about "the perspective" of those who were enslaved? TBF Jul 2015 #205

Again, that was the question that I was answering, I will repost and bold the key words, take Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #209

"Entire picture of human suffering" - TBF Jul 2015 #213

And what of your guilt? I doubt you even read all of my OP and ensuing thread. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #215

Sorry but I'm not buying your TBF Jul 2015 #216

Well it's good that you're not buying something that I'm not trying to sell. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #219

You are arguing that 1% were the serious owners and that TBF Jul 2015 #220

Are we all responsible for the drones that Obama launched? Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #221

Ya know.... frustrated_lefty Jul 2015 #178

Thank you, frustrated_lefty the most profound lesson that I learned long after school Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #180

My friends in the Army JonLP24 Jul 2015 #179

Thanks for sharing, JonL. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #181

Thank you, Jon frustrated_lefty Jul 2015 #186

Sorry. I live in the south, but this is a view through rose-colored glasses Adenoid_Hynkel Jul 2015 #192

Rose-colored glasses? Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #194

P.S. One other little piece of historical trivia since you brought it up. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #196

A mighty smooth drink! KamaAina Jul 2015 #206

"Southern Heritage" is hate and bigotry. Cyrano Jul 2015 #207

It's treason followed by a visit from Uncle Billy XRubicon Jul 2015 #208

I lived in the South. I can tell you what it is. It's music, food, religion and social politeness. ancianita Jul 2015 #212

I agree, ancianita, the South is rich and diverse in many ways and I suspect over time Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #217

... ancianita Jul 2015 #218

When we continue to pick at our wounds via talk of secession... LanternWaste Jul 2015 #231

That's not the heritage the Confederate flag wavers are "celebrating" though. Arugula Latte Jul 2015 #222

But that's my answer to the OP's question.The sickening, white "right order of things" is dying out. ancianita Jul 2015 #225

What an interesting photo! (painting?) It's a New South. kentuck Jul 2015 #226

Yeah, I love it. It's part of an Atlanta exhibit, I believe. So much lovely Southern art! ancianita Jul 2015 #227

Yep! kentuck Jul 2015 #228

It's the "Gone With the Wind" romantic notion of the South. MatthewStLouis Jul 2015 #214

shared suffering = karma annabanana Jul 2015 #223

I couldn't agree more, annabanana wanting to break up the USA was a bad idea. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #234

'while also dealing with the largest percentage in the nation of having more than one race. ' La Lioness Priyanka Jul 2015 #224

Personally, I find it enriching, the South's culture and its expanded influence Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #232

It's all of the above. kentuck Jul 2015 #229

Watch "Django" for an editorial depiction...[n/t] Maedhros Jul 2015 #230

I've seen Django, Twelve Years a Slave and Roots, I've also seen Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #233

Have you seen this guy? XRubicon Jul 2015 #235

That's where you're wrong, I may have fought for the Union if I had been alive 150 years ago, Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #236

General Sherman Despised Treason XRubicon Jul 2015 #237

General Sherman warned the South not to secede and he was prescient in his prediction Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #238

You seem to be able to use google XRubicon Jul 2015 #239

So in other words you're suggesting a person shouldn't have expressed their disapproval Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #242

"But to simply cast a person as being ignorant or racist for flying the Confederate Flag doesn't... XRubicon Jul 2015 #243

Thanks for the post and following discussion. JEB Jul 2015 #240

Thanks for your support, JEB. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #245