General Discussion

maxsolomon

(37,152 posts)

177. i disagree.

Reply to Odin2005 (Reply #154)

Fri Aug 26, 2016, 06:24 PM

Aug 2016

the Burkini law in France is misguided and unenforceable, and now it is suspended by the courts. let's not confuse a French law with something that happened in America.

the freedom to NOT wear religiously-proscribed dress (and conversely, TO wear it) makes "western standards" objectively superior to those of at least 2 specific countries where such freedom does not exist: Iran (where the Basiji enforce morals), and SA (where the Mutaween enforce morals). I'd include others, but I don't believe there are state-sponsored morals police elsewhere. I'm probably wrong about that.

American women generally dress to please themselves and other women (and no, I'm not including FLDS, Amish, or Hutterites in that generalization). in general, they have the freedom to do as they wish - modestly, immodestly, comfort, impractical.

if American Muslim women use that freedom to dress like old-school nuns, fine, but don't piss on me and tell me its raining.

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What is your stance on burkinis or headscarves on French (or American) beaches (or streets)? [View all] muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 OP

1,3,5,6,7... FBaggins Aug 2016 #1

That's how I feel but I am afraid that head scarfs may make those women easy targets leftyladyfrommo Aug 2016 #26

I don't see this uproar over Hasidic women on the beach, equally covered, walking behind husband. TheBlackAdder Aug 2016 #90

Are there a lot of Hasidic women on French beaches? nt MADem Aug 2016 #112

Muslims have enough money to vacation in France. You know, oil and stuff. here's my views: Jeffersons Ghost Aug 2016 #132

It's a complicated situation. I don't think the people they are approaching are vacationers. MADem Aug 2016 #134

SOME OF YOU NEED TO WEAR BURKINIS!!! AllTooEasy Aug 2016 #139

What people wear is simply not my business jberryhill Aug 2016 #2

Really? I can't legislate the banning of these clothes, but I don't have to like them, and MADem Aug 2016 #68

And your point is what? jberryhill Aug 2016 #84

She can stop wearing that costume and not be murdered for it. MADem Aug 2016 #86

Then we need to ban cooking jberryhill Aug 2016 #87

More false equivalence. Cooking is like shitting--both genders do it. MADem Aug 2016 #93

Oh, is there some rule in France about what men may wear? jberryhill Aug 2016 #95

Well, yes, there is. MADem Aug 2016 #98

Go lock them up, then jberryhill Aug 2016 #103

Why are you trying to position me as the French police, with your "Go lock them up, then" whine? MADem Aug 2016 #107

Why are you taking issue with me saying "it's none of my business" jberryhill Aug 2016 #111

Not sure what your housekeeper has to do with French law, but that was quite the jump! MADem Aug 2016 #113

This thread was not about "French Law" jberryhill Aug 2016 #117

The burkini ban on Muslim women in France is all about "French law." MADem Aug 2016 #121

Perhaps scrolling up is too hard jberryhill Aug 2016 #122

Come on--you're playing the clueless card, and we know you're not that. MADem Aug 2016 #124

And you are playing the actually ignorant card jberryhill Aug 2016 #161

There isn't now, because the ban (and it was a temporary one) has been struck down by the courts. MADem Aug 2016 #172

You got owned Loki Liesmith Aug 2016 #151

Adam Ruins Everything. Boys used to wear dresses, Pinks and blues are a recent marketing ploy. TheBlackAdder Aug 2016 #94

Let people be adults and chose their own level of modesty AllTooEasy Aug 2016 #138

What people wear and where they wear it MineralMan Aug 2016 #3

Right on! Sometimes people have natural allergies to sunlight or took sun-sensitive medication. TheBlackAdder Aug 2016 #91

Men have no business telling women they can't wear burkinis or must wear burkinis. Bernardo de La Paz Aug 2016 #4

One wonders if the same standard would be applied lapislzi Aug 2016 #5

No, it's not applied evenhandedly jberryhill Aug 2016 #24

So..."Catholic" is part of the French identity... lapislzi Aug 2016 #33

The shrine is a private and specifically religious location. It's not government - owned or run. MADem Aug 2016 #89

Large crucifixes are against the law in French PUBLIC life. MADem Aug 2016 #69

Another reason why I'm glad I live in the US AllTooEasy Aug 2016 #135

Freedom OF religion--but not freedom FROM it. MADem Aug 2016 #136

Those fleeing Britain were religious nuts lapislzi Aug 2016 #162

They were--both religious nuts, AND insufferable. They threw people out of their little MADem Aug 2016 #167

That was not my question. lapislzi Aug 2016 #160

I'm torn- a person should be free to wear what they want but almost always there is no real choice Lee-Lee Aug 2016 #6

There's no cookie cutter answer to that question lapislzi Aug 2016 #8

We need to stop assuming that all/most are forced AllTooEasy Aug 2016 #137

You have to be carefully taught.... MADem Aug 2016 #149

These images, as a woman, make me feel very, very uncomfortable: demmiblue Aug 2016 #7

Exposure to sun can make me a lot sicker Warpy Aug 2016 #10

Why Arent the 2 cops Forced to wear beach attire shorts ? Is it about what is right for the beach Person 2713 Aug 2016 #30

I don't think the police are sunbathing. That's why they aren't wearing sunbathing costumes. MADem Aug 2016 #143

The cops need to be in Speedos. Crunchy Frog Aug 2016 #61

France has picked the wrong hill to die on Warpy Aug 2016 #9

This is a stupid poll. People can and should wear what they want. We don't need clothing Pisces Aug 2016 #11

It may seem stupid, but the choices basically came from the reactions here: muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #16

Wool Bathing Suits Donkees Aug 2016 #12

Those costumes are too immodest. MADem Aug 2016 #123

Her body, her choice. That's my position on it. closeupready Aug 2016 #13

Bingo, it really is that simple. Il_Coniglietto Aug 2016 #18

But, it's not her choice. She is forced to cover up and conceal her body because of zealot underahedgerow Aug 2016 #118

Burden of proof, on a case-by-case basis, is on you closeupready Aug 2016 #131

Case in point, females don't HAVE the right to choose. They can't choose their husbands, they underahedgerow Aug 2016 #145

+1,000,000! nt MADem Aug 2016 #148

They certainly don't now, because French authorities demand blind obedience. closeupready Aug 2016 #155

Ah but there's the rub, you see. Is it force when centuries old creepy cult beliefs cause anyone to underahedgerow Aug 2016 #156

You're not showing enough skin! How dare you! Iggo Aug 2016 #14

I won't wear them because I don't think that they look good on me. Orrex Aug 2016 #15

I wish they had the ability to refuse to wear them without repercussions. alarimer Aug 2016 #17

I'm with you. I also think there is quite a reactive situation going on with burkinis suffragette Aug 2016 #40

I am amazed at the "enabling" of fundamental extremism concealed under the guise of "choice" MADem Aug 2016 #45

Right? By suggesting it's the woman's choice, it's empowering the patriarchy instead of empowering underahedgerow Aug 2016 #127

How adeptly you voiced what I was trying to say!!! MADem Aug 2016 #129

I am not French. Their country, their rules. AngryAmish Aug 2016 #19

By that standard, treestar Aug 2016 #43

Yes I would. AngryAmish Aug 2016 #44

+1 Marr Aug 2016 #158

Burkini, fine. Headscarf, fine. Burqa, NOT fine. TexasMommaWithAHat Aug 2016 #20

An Algerian expressed best why the burkini is insidious and wrong Albertoo Aug 2016 #21

Burkinis and headscarves, LWolf Aug 2016 #22

how can you determine that is the case? maxsolomon Aug 2016 #173

I can't. LWolf Aug 2016 #180

Burkas are oppression Calculating Aug 2016 #23

Couldn't Agree More RobinA Aug 2016 #25

Maybe we should work on sects started here in the United States first and get them in what you Person 2713 Aug 2016 #31

We have Amish at the beaches in Delaware all of the time jberryhill Aug 2016 #36

Lifestyle oppression and making others uncomfortable because they are clearly wearing clothes Person 2713 Aug 2016 #39

They aren't, as a religion, trying to impose their beliefs on the rest of us...or are they? MADem Aug 2016 #46

I have never had any Muslims trying to impose anything but Yes Crazy Christians ALL the time Person 2713 Aug 2016 #64

You've never been a victim of the Morality Police in Teheran!!! MADem Aug 2016 #65

Sects on the beach? True Dough Aug 2016 #59

Burkas are oppressive but Muslims in Indonesia (he largest Muslim country in the world) do not wear pampango Aug 2016 #38

Quota is totally wrong Nevernose Aug 2016 #51

Look how Iran changed after the revolution. MADem Aug 2016 #66

Just like how Western women are "conditioned" to wear skimpy clothes to please men? Odin2005 Aug 2016 #154

i disagree. maxsolomon Aug 2016 #177

What a person chooses to wear isn't my business, or that of the French government. Avalux Aug 2016 #27

Oh, it IS the business of the French government--they are secular, and they frown upon MADem Aug 2016 #80

My stance is very basic MurrayDelph Aug 2016 #28

As a cancer survivor I'm advised to sunblock and wear coverage while out in the sun for hours. eShirl Aug 2016 #29

I think once you wear one you will change your mind. MADem Aug 2016 #99

I have very fair skin and vomit when I'm in the sun too much. I wear linen during the summer underahedgerow Aug 2016 #126

I think it's a case of MYOB Gormy Cuss Aug 2016 #32

Are they banning ALL religious oriented garb? leftstreet Aug 2016 #34

Of course not jberryhill Aug 2016 #35

What a charming--and very VINTAGE--photograph! MADem Aug 2016 #55

You're awesome. That is all. eissa Aug 2016 #56

.... MADem Aug 2016 #71

Seriously? leftstreet Aug 2016 #63

We've had color photography for many years, now. MADem Aug 2016 #73

I await the ban on these nuns' habits. Il_Coniglietto Aug 2016 #75

Italy (where your pic was taken) is a CATHOLIC country. France, OTOH, is SECULAR. MADem Aug 2016 #85

And? Do you think there are no French nuns? Il_Coniglietto Aug 2016 #88

No one seems to be able to show me a pic of French nuns in old-school habits MADem Aug 2016 #92

I have worn hijab so please don't assume. Il_Coniglietto Aug 2016 #101

Oh really? That's quite a user name you've got there, you hijab wearing male wabbit, you! MADem Aug 2016 #104

LMAO! Il_Coniglietto Aug 2016 #109

I hate immigrants? Really? MADem Aug 2016 #110

"...they prioritize their 'Frenchness' and they don't particularly want their society diluted..." Il_Coniglietto Aug 2016 #163

They DO. Maybe you should have asked for a definition of "Frenchiness" before you lashed out with MADem Aug 2016 #164

+1,000,000. Thank you. closeupready Aug 2016 #165

To be precise, that photo is from Rio's Copacabana beach muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #140

Ah ha!!! MADem Aug 2016 #142

Have you considered getting an editor for your posts? muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #146

Wow, have you ever considered getting a Politeness Coach? MADem Aug 2016 #147

Oh please leftstreet Aug 2016 #77

Here, a little something to maybe make you think a bit harder on this issue. MADem Aug 2016 #83

...which has nothing to do with the OP leftstreet Aug 2016 #97

Let me deconstruct your misstatement of fact. MADem Aug 2016 #108

and there it is... leftstreet Aug 2016 #115

Yes, there it is. MADem Aug 2016 #125

So it seems: "Nuns cannot wear their habits on our beaches, says deputy mayor of Cannes" muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #141

I imagine that will disappoint some who really thought they had a winner with all those old pictures MADem Aug 2016 #150

Your imagination seems to bear little relation to reality muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #152

Just another way to shame women about their bodies. I'm looking at YOU, France. Hekate Aug 2016 #37

Live and let live - for heavens sake - asiliveandbreathe Aug 2016 #41

How about, "It's none of my business" gratuitous Aug 2016 #42

If you're telling grown women what they can and can't wear... backscatter712 Aug 2016 #47

Burkinis are ugly. romanic Aug 2016 #48

I think people should be allowed to choose for themselves what they wear. Period. Full Stop. Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #49

I don't think so either.......seems like some of the same crowd offended by both ironically Person 2713 Aug 2016 #106

Yeah. Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #114

Better than dudes in Speedos. Throd Aug 2016 #50

Com'on...there's nothing better than dudes in Speedos. Especially elderly portly, dudes. CincyDem Aug 2016 #52

Why? Because they look ''gay''? Some of us can wear a speedo because we take care of our bodies. YOHABLO Aug 2016 #54

probably because some people let themselves go, then wear the speedos anyways. my children cannot bravenak Aug 2016 #57

"....with all their interests hanging out!" MADem Aug 2016 #128

Your mechanic is right!! bravenak Aug 2016 #130

Bad memories of pale, portly German tourists on the beaches of Malaga in the 70's. Throd Aug 2016 #58

They are not wearing them for your approval jberryhill Aug 2016 #119

LOL--don't always assume that the dislike of speedos has anything to do with homophobia!!! MADem Aug 2016 #74

In the US, I don't think a burkini could be banned. Ilsa Aug 2016 #53

We have "freedom of religion." You can wear a cross as big as a Christmas tree and no one MADem Aug 2016 #78

They really are not that much different than what Amish women wear. appleannie1 Aug 2016 #60

True enough, and the men are equally covered and "plain." n/t phylny Aug 2016 #72

Personally find them offensive (on 2 fronts) but ... Panich52 Aug 2016 #62

Nuns don't seem to be affected on French beaches. Buckeye_Democrat Aug 2016 #67

Those are Italian nuns on an Italian beach! MADem Aug 2016 #96

Remember skinny dipping? kwassa Aug 2016 #70

You have not been threatened by Isis to blow up beach goers pbmus Aug 2016 #76

I am not going to play this game. nt longship Aug 2016 #79

I don't care. Should be a free world. Rex Aug 2016 #81

Not for me to say. moondust Aug 2016 #82

Yup. +1 Arazi Aug 2016 #102

No one has the right to tell women that they cannot choose hijab! mwrguy Aug 2016 #100

How, exactly? I'm curious. Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #116

They will look back at this mwrguy Aug 2016 #168

well I'm sure we agree that telling people what to wear or not wear, do or not do is wrong! Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #174

Jesus. Marr Aug 2016 #159

You think I am threatening the nation of France? mwrguy Aug 2016 #169

Oh, don't be coy. Marr Aug 2016 #170

FFS, check yourself. maxsolomon Aug 2016 #179

Its a cloth. Eko Aug 2016 #105

i support the Burqa ban but the specific case in France just seemed wrong JI7 Aug 2016 #120

If we must ban something on the beach, make it accordions or bagpipes or both! n/t Binkie The Clown Aug 2016 #133

TYT weighted in yuiyoshida Aug 2016 #144

People have a right to wear what they want. Odin2005 Aug 2016 #153

Law has been overturned by France's top court. closeupready Aug 2016 #157

Good. About time France's brain-damaged morons got smacked down. backscatter712 Aug 2016 #166

Absolutely. If, on the other hand, a woman is being coerced closeupready Aug 2016 #175

The day I'm allowed to swim naked, I'll support any type of garment for others. nt. FigTree Aug 2016 #171

But ... Thats different!!!!!! Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #182

This is all a conspiracy to fund Big Sunblock citood Aug 2016 #176

If the woman is okay with it let it be. LiberalFighter Aug 2016 #178

I think it's ridiculous to start policing dress IVoteDFL Aug 2016 #181