General Discussion

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)

124. No, I would say that is factual

Wed Sep 6, 2017, 11:37 AM

Sep 2017

The same case against Nader applies to Bernie.

Trump is President now because he won three states

Wisconsin
Pennsylvania
Michigan

Wisconsin - margin of victory 23,000 votes Johnson 106,000 votes, Stein 31,000 votes
Pennsylvania - margin of victory 44,000 votes, Johnson 146,700 votes, Stein 49,900 votes
Michigan - margin of victory 10,700 votes, Johnson 172,136, Stein 51,463 votes

Those are facts, and so are these
Michigan - Trump 2.28 million, Hillary 2.27 million
Pennsylvania - Trump 2.97 million, Hillary 2.93 million
Wisconsin - Trump 1.41 million, Hillary 1.38 million

2012 election results
Wisconsin - Obama 1.62 million, Romney 1.41 million, Johnson 20,400, Stein 7,600
Pennsylvania - Obama 2.99 million, Romney 2.68 million, Johnson 50,000, Stein 21,300
Michigan - Obama 2.56 million, Romney 2.1 million, Johnson 7,800, Stein 21,900

combine those two elections (difference between 2016 and 2012)

Wisconsin - Trump +0, Hillary -240,000, Johnson +86,000, Stein +23,000
Pennsylvania - Trump +290,000, Hillary -60,000, Johnson +96,000, Stein +28,600
Michigan - Trump +180,000, Hillary -290,000, Johnson +164,000, Stein +29,500

Just one more set of facts

1. losing hurts - it makes people angry and sad
2. Bernie lost the primary thus likely to make at least SOME of his supporters angry or sad
3. the message was spread that the DNC, if not Hillary herself, cheated
4. the message was spread that Hillary was VERY likely to win the general election
5. because of #4 it is very likely that SOME angry or sad Bernie supporters felt they could Safety dance with a 3rd party candidate
6. the numbers, less votes for Hillary and more votes for Johnson and Stein, would indicate that they did

okay, #5 and #6 are speculative rather than factual, but it is speculation based on facts. I base that on my own experience too. In 1996 it was said that Clinton was going to win easily. As such, I my own damn self, felt safe to cast a protest vote for a 4th party candidate even though I really, really did NOT want Dole to win.

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I feel like I'm losing my mind with still more Hillary vs. Bernie [View all] Saviolo Sep 2017 OP

The floggings will continue until morale improves. (nt) klook Sep 2017 #1

You BEAT me to it. Martin Eden Sep 2017 #97

You should be flogged just for that awful pun. Amimnoch Sep 2017 #150

Ouch! Martin Eden Sep 2017 #186

I certainly agree. CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2017 #2

I read through DU daily and haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. TexasProgresive Sep 2017 #3

With the release of Hillary's book Saviolo Sep 2017 #8

Here's the proceedure TexasProgresive Sep 2017 #15

I've served on a couple of juries recently that addressed this issue. mia Sep 2017 #30

Unfortunately, juries have been leaving them Ms. Toad Sep 2017 #31

But Hillary is releasing that book, discussing all this stuff. thesquanderer Sep 2017 #38

It really is a dilemma True Dough Sep 2017 #47

Maybe convos about her book need to be moved to a separate group. woodsprite Sep 2017 #87

I agree The Mouth Sep 2017 #117

I think there should be a special forum for DUers who want to keep re-fighting the 2016 Dem primary klook Sep 2017 #171

Great Idea! Paka Sep 2017 #223

Was that done with discussions of "Our Revolution?" (nt) ehrnst Sep 2017 #239

I agree that there should be a temporay dispensation to discuss this with no posts being eliminated karynnj Sep 2017 #103

Have you read about Our Revolution and there plans to primary sitting Democrats? Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #4

I do not believe that group is an ally of Democrats. NurseJackie Sep 2017 #6

reporter asked-should people start a 3rd party?Bernie said, "NO. Stay in & support Democratic Party" Sunlei Sep 2017 #182

Oh, I missed that. Can you post the link, please? (Thanks.) NurseJackie Sep 2017 #184

I watched it on a news show Sanders was on last week. He's been on several shows. Sunlei Sep 2017 #187

I'll have to see it or read a transcript before I comment further. NurseJackie Sep 2017 #188

here, I've spend a while looking for the "proof" for you. This is the closest I can find. Sunlei Sep 2017 #192

Ah. Two weeks ago and the context was Charlottesville. NurseJackie Sep 2017 #193

yes, but I also heard 'some reporter' ask Sanders that direct 3rd party question- Sunlei Sep 2017 #206

That would have been a disaster. She made the best choice. NurseJackie Sep 2017 #208

Stay in and wreck the democratic party. melanctha Sep 2017 #197

thanks for your concern. I love Bernie & Hillary. I'm keeping them both on _my_ team. Sunlei Sep 2017 #209

So everything his supporters say reflects on him? mucifer Sep 2017 #9

That is Sanders group. boston bean Sep 2017 #16

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2017 #54

Nina Turner is not bad.. disillusioned73 Sep 2017 #105

Post removed Post removed Sep 2017 #113

No, we've already been a center right party for some time. Unfortunately. nt Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #137

Nina Turner is President of Our Revolution, which is working to primary sitting Democrats. SunSeeker Sep 2017 #138

So if YOUR truths are the ones Plucketeer Sep 2017 #158

These aren't "my truths," these are the facts. SunSeeker Sep 2017 #165

Wow! Plucketeer Sep 2017 #167

She did not support the Democratic candidate in the general election. Tanuki Sep 2017 #154

Ohhhh.. disillusioned73 Sep 2017 #163

In late October, she was quite offended by an MSNBC anchor's suggestion Tanuki Sep 2017 #170

Wow.. disillusioned73 Sep 2017 #175

As I said, she did not support the Democratic candidate against Trump in the election. Tanuki Sep 2017 #178

No one is trying to silence Nina Turner. But she is not a Democrat if she doesn't support Democrats. Justice Sep 2017 #243

Imagine - a strong woman having the nerve to express her opinion. ehrnst Sep 2017 #246

The whole group wants to primary sitting Democrats. SunSeeker Sep 2017 #130

I think you may.. disillusioned73 Sep 2017 #164

No. SunSeeker Sep 2017 #180

Ummm.. disillusioned73 Sep 2017 #190

NO Democrat is worse than a Republican. And that is what you'd get by attacking a sitting Dem. SunSeeker Sep 2017 #199

Pure enough?? Let's go with current events then.. disillusioned73 Sep 2017 #200

The GOP was filibustering, not the Democrats. SunSeeker Sep 2017 #207

So.... disillusioned73 Sep 2017 #234

No. I don't want us to "keep doing what we're doing." SunSeeker Sep 2017 #241

I agree.. disillusioned73 Sep 2017 #242

Because who needs experience when you can have "NEW BLOOD"? ehrnst Sep 2017 #248

He is involved with Our Revolution. Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #25

That used to be okay on DU hfojvt Sep 2017 #67

You can't expect more from Nina Turner. leftofcool Sep 2017 #133

Stop it. Just stop. Read the OP AllyCat Sep 2017 #152

Thank you. Finally a voice of SANITY ellnthomp Sep 2017 #204

Right on. Thank you. AllyCat Sep 2017 #210

I have and it makes me sick Progressive dog Sep 2017 #212

I know lots of us come he for support in difficult times and if we voted for Bernie I feel this mucifer Sep 2017 #5

Nobody is doing that. NurseJackie Sep 2017 #7

. melman Sep 2017 #35

No, least of all you RandomAccess Sep 2017 #146

Sure they are. If you haven't seen it then you aren't paying attention nt white_wolf Sep 2017 #219

Can you link to an example? Or maybe it's been hidden already... NurseJackie Sep 2017 #220

Can you provide examples? Not everyone has the same definition of bashing. (nt) ehrnst Sep 2017 #230

Understandable Me. Sep 2017 #32

Yes. A Bernie Bashing group.. LakeArenal Sep 2017 #52

Politicians in office will be criticized. That's part of the package. (nt) ehrnst Sep 2017 #231

Yes, but I don't need to listen to "bashing" LakeArenal Sep 2017 #236

One person's criticism is another's bashing. Particularly when it comes to favorite politicians. ehrnst Sep 2017 #238

If you can't distinguish bashing LakeArenal Sep 2017 #240

If you can't distinguish bashing ehrnst Sep 2017 #245

I never bash Hillary, so I don't know to whom you refer. LakeArenal Sep 2017 #247

I think a site for those that don't know the difference between bashing ehrnst Sep 2017 #249

Just give it up, ehrnst... LakeArenal Sep 2017 #250

Like you're doing? (nt) ehrnst Sep 2017 #253

In that poll published a few weeks ago, padfun Sep 2017 #71

Obama won though. Nine percent would've helped Clinton win against the orange idiot. Big difference brush Sep 2017 #81

Really not a big difference at all ... Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #127

The EC was flipped by 77,000 votes. I beg to differ that nine percent made no difference. brush Sep 2017 #131

I agreed that the 9% made a difference, but... Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #143

Some Independents and even some rural Democrats who voted for Sanders Tom Rinaldo Sep 2017 #214

Some of what you're saying might be true but you're saying it as if there was no skullduggery... brush Sep 2017 #221

I didn't mean to imply that. I agree that Republicans often cheat when they can in elections. Tom Rinaldo Sep 2017 #222

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2017 #128

Two different elections 8 years apart with trump being the orange elephant in the room. brush Sep 2017 #134

What too many people don't understand is that RandomAccess Sep 2017 #141

24% Huh.... LovingA2andMI Sep 2017 #121

There were different polls, and different studies. You are not quoting the same poll at all. ehrnst Sep 2017 #237

It is a flagrant violation of the rules and I wish the admins would crack down on it. Nt LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #10

Listening to my local liberal radio station and they are talking about it, among many other things lunasun Sep 2017 #11

I don't care about Hillary or Bernie. HopeAgain Sep 2017 #12

Neither was a viable candidate. Control-Z Sep 2017 #27

+1000 Fla Dem Sep 2017 #55

Umm, they lost. HopeAgain Sep 2017 #90

How can you say that someone who won the popular vote by multiple millions Tanuki Sep 2017 #46

She lost key states to DJT? HopeAgain Sep 2017 #93

I think someone likes to cause trouble. Control-Z Sep 2017 #100

Anyone would not be a "viable candidate" Dopers_Greed Sep 2017 #115

Clinton and Sanders are done! Bad Thoughts Sep 2017 #132

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2017 #233

I agree that neither was optimal Martin Eden Sep 2017 #189

We don't want that to happen again treestar Sep 2017 #13

No, the same problem was here in 2008 padfun Sep 2017 #75

Agreed. Never again should we allow a non-Dem with no party loyalty to split our party. brush Sep 2017 #91

So much this mreilly Sep 2017 #14

THIS. slumcamper Sep 2017 #33

I couldn't agree more. It's over, it's done. I have bigger things to worry about now than Arkansas Granny Sep 2017 #66

And, it's blatantly against the TOS. Coventina Sep 2017 #17

Not much good in rules that people won't enforce. QC Sep 2017 #172

It is a discussion about the general. Not the primary. boston bean Sep 2017 #18

Can we focus on mid-terms instead? Saviolo Sep 2017 #20

Why can't people discuss what they feel was wrong??! boston bean Sep 2017 #21

They absolutely can, but... Saviolo Sep 2017 #28

Rubbish! Bernie vs Hillary is NOT about the General. longship Sep 2017 #23

Umm you are wrong. boston bean Sep 2017 #24

The question is, who is going to be part of the solution? longship Sep 2017 #34

No he is not. Nt LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #45

Lately, I've started trashing those threads. cwydro Sep 2017 #39

Just out of curiosity, how do you 'trash' a thread? PatrickforO Sep 2017 #42

Directly under the Original Post blaze Sep 2017 #53

Oh, how cool! Out of sight, out of mind. PatrickforO Sep 2017 #56

Don't trash them. Alert on them. nt longship Sep 2017 #48

I've never been big on alerting, but maybe you're right. cwydro Sep 2017 #68

Well, there's no hope at all unless people alert. longship Sep 2017 #73

You have a point. cwydro Sep 2017 #78

Alert them all. nt longship Sep 2017 #85

It's Bernie bashing, which is a blatant violatinon of the TOS. n/t Ms. Toad Sep 2017 #179

Retrospective analyses of the primaries and the general are now perceived LanternWaste Sep 2017 #19

We all choose which threads to click on and reply to IronLionZion Sep 2017 #22

Qui Bono? - Who benefits from this internal conflict? Xipe Totec Sep 2017 #26

That's exactly right. CanSocDem Sep 2017 #62

"Cui Bono" is the phrase SharonAnn Sep 2017 #69

Yes. Thank you. "Caesar non supra grammaticos" nt Xipe Totec Sep 2017 #96

I'm very sorry that Hillary isn't President, but she is wrong to blame Bernie. Bluepinky Sep 2017 #29

Hillary Clinton is unlikely to go away. I delisen Sep 2017 #50

Don't be patronizing, I sense some derision in your words. Bluepinky Sep 2017 #144

I think Clinton should tell the truth as she sees it. delisen Sep 2017 #183

Hillary voted for the Iraq War, just saying. Bluepinky Sep 2017 #194

No, Hillary, don't go away. Speak up and speak loudly. Fla Dem Sep 2017 #57

No, I would say that is factual hfojvt Sep 2017 #124

I'm not disagreeing with you. I remember that Nader episode, I was furious that he didn't drop out. Bluepinky Sep 2017 #153

The same case against Nader does NOT apply against Bernie LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #160

Why did those people vote for Stein or Johnson (or even Trump)? hfojvt Sep 2017 #191

Bernie attracted some Independents and even Republicans Bluepinky Sep 2017 #196

Books over 500 pages, I'd imagine very little of that concerns the primary emulatorloo Sep 2017 #156

Post removed Post removed Sep 2017 #36

So much this Fuck this bullshit feud. 2018 is upon us Arazi Sep 2017 #37

K & R X 1,000!!! PatrickforO Sep 2017 #40

I agree. But I learned a while back PoindexterOglethorpe Sep 2017 #41

I agree with you Madam Mossfern Sep 2017 #43

Agree! Alert infighting threads!! Much bigger battles to fight.... RiverStone Sep 2017 #139

I don't think we'll ever hear the end of it, sadly. Initech Sep 2017 #44

I'd like to thank the Admins for the Trash a Thread function nini Sep 2017 #49

I think it was resurected by a recent article JohnnyRingo Sep 2017 #51

Some of us would like a true accounting as to why there are ACTUAL NAZIS happening right now. MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #58

The nazis have been here all along - they're not new Saviolo Sep 2017 #70

The answer is not for Hillary to shut up. MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #82

I personally don't think either of them should shut up Saviolo Sep 2017 #101

+1000. (nt) ehrnst Sep 2017 #229

Blaming a Jew for Nazis? Figures... antisemitism is everywhere even here on DU it seems. LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #77

That's a ridiculous stretch and you know it. MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #86

No your post is what is ridiculous and you know it. Nt LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #89

His being Jewish had absolutely fucking nothing to do with my post. MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #92

You are the one who blamed a Jew for the Nazis and you know it. LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #99

For fuck's sake. MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #102

Projecting much? Nt LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #104

No need to make it personal. MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #106

Your post is hyperbolic, offensive, divisive, falatious and LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #109

That's your opinion. MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #111

I didn't make anything up. I posted a fact LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #114

Cry some more. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #112

Yes, Bernie was the spoiler. MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #118

You don't even know what a spoiler is! LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #122

Can you not tell the difference between a primary and a general election? AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #123

Nonsense happens when people who don't know what they're talking about open their mouths. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #198

They blamed Ted Kennedy. MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #201

No doubt you do. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #202

No doubt that's a two way street. MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #203

Not really, no. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #244

Maybe post better then? I dunno. AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #120

Very brave Lordquinton Sep 2017 #176

So much wrong here Lordquinton Sep 2017 #181

Can't we just turn the fucking page already. CanonRay Sep 2017 #59

I agree. Let's move on. smirkymonkey Sep 2017 #60

I simply do not pay attention to the past kpete Sep 2017 #61

Hillary and Bernie dogandturtlemom Sep 2017 #63

You cannot move forward if you only look back. TNNurse Sep 2017 #64

People are angry, moreso because it resulted in a immature criminal in the White House. Lil Missy Sep 2017 #65

Yes. efhmc Sep 2017 #76

How or why is it happening? I'd say lots of bitterness. jalan48 Sep 2017 #72

Definitely Proud Liberal Dem Sep 2017 #148

I agree. We need to focus as a united group and not individual factions. Easier said than done. jalan48 Sep 2017 #157

And this is why we can't have nice things Rural_Progressive Sep 2017 #74

Let us not forget.. disillusioned73 Sep 2017 #79

Repeating for emphasis.... workinclasszero Sep 2017 #80

I am sooooo over this Hillary VS Sanders thingy nt elmac Sep 2017 #83

I agree. I don't even read those threads any more. The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2017 #84

Here's Bern-ary! moonseller66 Sep 2017 #88

I am trying to ignore it all MuseRider Sep 2017 #94

I'm with ya Saviolo, but zentrum Sep 2017 #95

At this point, anyone who brings it up now makes me suspicious Chakaconcarne Sep 2017 #98

Agree. nt hay rick Sep 2017 #107

So only trolls want to talk about Hillary's book? MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #108

You are sounding more and more like this: Saviolo Sep 2017 #125

Don't lose your mind. If you can't take it just delete the thread and move on. haveahart Sep 2017 #110

I'm not surprised. mention the 2000 election and watch people lose their shit Javaman Sep 2017 #116

This!!! LovingA2andMI Sep 2017 #119

I'd have more sympathy for that view BainsBane Sep 2017 #126

I've been begging for an end to tribalism for years, now Saviolo Sep 2017 #135

Okay, I give you props for that BainsBane Sep 2017 #136

A house divided against itself cannot stand Saviolo Sep 2017 #151

We are playing right into Putin's hands with the division. MelissaB Sep 2017 #129

we had no way to debrief after the election... samnsara Sep 2017 #140

The circular firing squad is quite popular at DU. milestogo Sep 2017 #142

Naughty Naughty Bruce Fallsteen Sep 2017 #145

WE FUCKING LOST!!!!! Iggo Sep 2017 #147

I couldn't agree more RandomAccess Sep 2017 #149

Reminds me of the way The South clings to the Civil War. Some wars never end. nt Binkie The Clown Sep 2017 #155

Because some pages of her book were released? The book will be released on 9/12 and I assume seaglass Sep 2017 #159

You choose to be focused on Bernie vs. Hillary Kaleva Sep 2017 #161

Please, please no more divisiveness! The alt right loves it! Mountain Mule Sep 2017 #162

She had the nerve to WRITE A BOOK!!! About the ELECTION - and that is WRONG!!!! ehrnst Sep 2017 #166

Thanks for skipping to the end and not reading anything else Saviolo Sep 2017 #168

I was commenting on various posts I've seen on DU, not just the OP. ehrnst Sep 2017 #228

THANK YOU Skittles Sep 2017 #225

Midterms, Midterms, Midterms! Heartstrings Sep 2017 #169

+100000000000000000 jimlup Sep 2017 #173

Step away from the Internet for a while Politicub Sep 2017 #174

turn it off because the Republican partys propaganda Juggernaut takes great pride in Ds upset. Sunlei Sep 2017 #177

Trash thread. tazkcmo Sep 2017 #185

Truly, we MUST focus. For years we haven't stopped them when they were small. We've been ancianita Sep 2017 #195

Yes!! It's an echo chamber RiverStone Sep 2017 #205

We are not focused on Bernie vs Hillary Progressive dog Sep 2017 #211

It's completely intolerable. Let go of this divisive obsession and fight THEM not us. stuffmatters Sep 2017 #213

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2017 #215

Comic gold! johnp3907 Sep 2017 #216

How can you possibly cite that opinion as FACT? DesertRat Sep 2017 #217

Most of the shit going on liquid diamond Sep 2017 #218

the subject was brought up in a major book by a politcal figure Skittles Sep 2017 #224

same here... chillfactor Sep 2017 #226

Nothing to lose your mind over. icymist Sep 2017 #227

It appears that there are a small group of people who intend to keep this mess going as long Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #232

Yep... LovingA2andMI Sep 2017 #252

Okay, now back to JARNDYCE vs JARNDYCE, who won? n/m bagelsforbreakfast Sep 2017 #235

Move forward, not back! Heartstrings Sep 2017 #251