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xocetaceans

(3,874 posts)
15. This may sound a bit crazy, but...
Thu Jul 7, 2022, 06:36 PM
Jul 2022

Last edited Fri Jul 8, 2022, 03:22 PM - Edit history (1)

I think that there might be some value in combining undergraduate physics and chemistry degree programs a little bit more closely.

The thrust of physics is essentially to get past the basics of Newtonian mechanics, statistical mechanics and EM theory and to extend this via Hamiltonian mechanics and Lagrangian mechanics: one picks up special relativity along the way and then one has a foundation for the quantum mechanics of the hydrogen atom. This gets extended to quantum field theory (which uses Lagrangian densities in action integrals and the idea of minimization of the action). In broadly talking about quantum field theory and particle physics, that's when gauge theory and symmetries end up out front as descriptions of what is being discussed. SU(3)xSU(2)xU(1) talks about groups, group representations, etc and describes the standard model in that SU(3) relates to quantum chromodynamics (the strong force; relating to quarks and gluons) and SU(2)xU(1) (the electroweak force; relating to W+,W-,Z0 bosons and photons). This is a terribly oversimplified, off-the-cuff summary, but it has been quite a while for me.

Physical chemistry for chemistry majors seems to be a really good course - which I regret never having taken. From the outside, it seems to give one closer contact to important experimental data relating to statistical mechanics - i.e., enthalpy, entropy, etc. Anyway, it seems like it would give one a firmer foundation (i.e., an experimental foundation) in the early parts of a physics degree - the ones that relate to thermodynamics and, say, the quantum mechanics that applies in chemical reactions.

Anyway, perhaps physical chemistry and the physical chemistry lab course would be good for undergraduate physicists. What do you think?

To elaborate slightly, my above description leaves out mentioning almost all the math that underpins everything. If you've never looked at the standard model from the point of view of applied mathematics, here is a seemingly good lecture course that I ran into the other day. I haven't watched it, but, from the lecture titles, the ones that most directly relate to particle physics are those after lecture #34:

&list=PLOzRYVm0a65dGef0BEA_CWbVCO6BtMZhE


That being said, it might not be safe to skip the earlier lectures, depending on what is already known.

Knowing aspects of group theory is very important to the standard model. Most math texts are quite far away from anything directly applicable to the physics and focus on establishing the mathematical theory of groups, rings and fields - i.e., Herstein's book on Abstract Algebra. However, there is a more efficient and more visualizable approach to understanding group theory which allows one to quickly get past the basics of discrete groups and get on to continuous groups (Lie groups). That approach is based on Cayley diagrams and is discussed online in these lectures, which I would highly recommend to anyone whether they have seen group theory before or not:



They are based on an approach taken in this book, Visual Group Theory, by Nathan Carter -- https://bookstore.ams.org/clrm-32/.

(While one is mentioning very interesting math books that are perhaps worth a look, there are also these, Visual Complex Analysis, by Tristan Needham -- https://www.amazon.com/Visual-Complex-Analysis-Tristan-Needham/dp/0198534469 , and also Visual Differential Geometry, also by Needham -- https://www.amazon.com/Visual-Differential-Geometry-Forms-Mathematical/dp/0691203709 .)

Of course, visualization can be a two-edge sword if one accidentally brings unrecognized assumptions into one's arguments. This was pointed out in a recent 3Blue1Brown episode:



Anyway, I'm writing this without knowing what you know or what exactly you are interested in - forgive me if I'm covering topics that are already well-known to you and for the extensive length of this reply. I just believe that modern physics is a beautiful thing that is worth knowing, so I hope that this reply is useful in that light.

Story is insufficient. Doesn't say if from the latest upgrade Tetrachloride Jul 2022 #1
It had to be in the data from the last run Cheezoholic Jul 2022 #3
So I surmised. Maybe the writer wasn't aware of new stuff Tetrachloride Jul 2022 #4
My "elementary particle physics" learning is so obsolete now BumRushDaShow Jul 2022 #2
FYI: Here's a recent three-volume, open-access reference from CERN and Springer Verlag... xocetaceans Jul 2022 #11
Oooo thanks! Bookmarked BumRushDaShow Jul 2022 #12
You're welcome. xocetaceans Jul 2022 #13
I've only seen part of that film BumRushDaShow Jul 2022 #14
This may sound a bit crazy, but... xocetaceans Jul 2022 #15
Not crazy at all BumRushDaShow Jul 2022 #16
Overloading like that had to be a challenging but rewarding experience.... xocetaceans Jul 2022 #17
Good Post! ProfessorGAC Jul 2022 #18
Thanks for the positive feedback.... xocetaceans Jul 2022 #25
To Your Question ProfessorGAC Jul 2022 #26
Cool. That sounds like a fairly strenuous program. xocetaceans Jul 2022 #27
Are we sure this isn't The Onion? Xoan Jul 2022 #5
Read it a little more closely... SeattleVet Jul 2022 #7
Large, Exotic, Hardons Effete Snob Jul 2022 #10
I'm telling ya,... LudwigPastorius Jul 2022 #6
I'm with you on that! C Moon Jul 2022 #8
Hooo, boy, you got THAT right electric_blue68 Jul 2022 #21
Wish they would hurry up and discover "Warp Speed" KS Toronado Jul 2022 #9
Depending Oh Where Mars Is In Its Orbit... ProfessorGAC Jul 2022 #19
For that info you get a free round trip. KS Toronado Jul 2022 #22
Outstanding! ProfessorGAC Jul 2022 #23
You could call it the Special Relativity Special. LudwigPastorius Jul 2022 #24
At what point will any of this knowledge have an practical value that would influence henbuck Jul 2022 #20
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