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intaglio

(8,170 posts)
21. And if the energy is free, what happens to your calculations?
Sun Jun 10, 2012, 09:03 AM
Jun 2012

Technically oil is also thermodynamically inefficient because you have to ignore the amount of energy used to produce the original plants and bacteria.

Then let us look at the ridiculous amount of pollution produced by the oil industry and the nonsensical amount of energy involved in the clean-up and the stupid amount of CO2 that has never been cleaned-up and is part of the source of AGW. This too is not included in your efficiency calculations.

I agree that no energy source can be totally carbon neutral but you have to try and the closest to C neutral is likely to be solar, wind and tidal. Energy storage is an important element of a near neutral energy economy and, at present that problem has not been cracked (no pun intended). Likely elements of the energy storage solution are:
1) Hydrogen from water, disadvantage bulk storage (low mass per volume);
2) Hydroelectric pumped storage, disadvantage limited suitable sites;
3) Pneumatic pumped storage, disadvantage limited sites (void oil fields, salt caverns);
4) Chemical battery; problems low energy density, scaling and noxious byproducts;
5) Mechanical battery (gyroscopic), problem bulk;
6) Heat storage (molten salts), limited to thermal solar power stations and noxious byproducts.

Hydrogen storage is likely to be partially resolved by the use of clathrate type nanostructures

Recommendations

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Electric motors can provide 100% torque just about instantaneously LARED Jun 2012 #1
Race cars have been the R&D platform for a number of automobile technologies. OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #2
Unfortunately hydrogen is not an energy source. longship Jun 2012 #3
Petroleum products are also not an energy source. They merely store energy in the form of chemical kestrel91316 Jun 2012 #4
What????? longship Jun 2012 #5
And how (exactly) is this relevant? OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #6
Thank you. You just made my point. longship Jun 2012 #8
And the point that I made was…? OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #9
Hydrogen is fucking NOT a source of energy!!! longship Jun 2012 #12
I believe everyone knows that OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #13
Okay, OKIsItJustMe. longship Jun 2012 #14
“I confess that my teaching life more than occasionally kicks in here on DU.” OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #15
Water, Sunlight intaglio Jun 2012 #7
Well, you've made my point. longship Jun 2012 #10
I don't believe anyone here thinks that Hydrogen is an energy source. OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #11
There is not a natural source of gasoline intaglio Jun 2012 #19
It is thermodynamics 101 longship Jun 2012 #20
And if the energy is free, what happens to your calculations? intaglio Jun 2012 #21
I don't give a shit about efficiency of oil longship Jun 2012 #22
So what is your alternative? intaglio Jun 2012 #23
Well, I think we're on the same page longship Jun 2012 #24
What is the specific problem you want storage to solve? kristopher Jun 2012 #26
Hydrogen, as an energy carrier, is far more efficient than petroleum and H2 Cars will kick ass and.. NYC_SKP Jun 2012 #16
I like it to even out the day/night solar power cycle longship Jun 2012 #17
H2 peaker plants at every wind farm... NYC_SKP Jun 2012 #18
Would you propose putting peaking plants next to baseload plants? kristopher Jun 2012 #25
I'm in an ag area, and my reply was quite a generalization. NYC_SKP Jun 2012 #27
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»Hydrogen fuel cells begin...»Reply #21