2016 Postmortem

thesquanderer

(11,999 posts)

98. Well...

Sat Oct 3, 2015, 11:29 PM

Oct 2015

Last edited Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:09 AM - Edit history (2)

Yes, Bernie voted for HR 4541, but HR 4541 didn't have the bad stuff in it (and passed the House 377-4). So what's the problem?

(BTW, the four No votes were split Dem and Repub, and included Ron Paul. Is this really such an ideal litmus test?)

(BTW #2, you are aware that the final, toxic version of this was ultimately signed into law by Bill Clinton, right?)

Unlike HR 4541 which passed with virtually unanimous bipartisan support, the IWR was far more divisive. It had the support of less than 40% of the house Dems, and 58% of the Senate Dems, so plenty of Dems were against it. I don't discount that it had language to provide a way out of going to war, but ultimately, its purpose was to permit Bush to go to war. Some people think it was naive to think that Bush would genuinely use the resolution to avoid war, but maybe you're among those who, like HRC, gave him more credit than that. Fine. Regardless, without the IWR, he simply did not have the authority to go in. And IMO, a lot of dems voted more intelligently on this than HRC did. (And almost no Dems voted differently from Bernie on HR 4541... and again, that makes sense, as it was not the terrible bill some people are making it out to be.)

A nice analysis of Hillary's floor speech is at

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/01/12/435624/-A-golden-oldie-Hillary-s-floor-speech-to-invade-Iraq#

Especially pay attention to the discussion of Carl Levin's alternate resolution, which HRC voted against.

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I can show every Hillary supporter why they should be supporting Bernie [View all] pinebox Oct 2015 OP

Should, should, should? No thanks. I think I will decide who I support. leftofcool Oct 2015 #1

Good Luck Supporting An Establishment Candidate In An Age Of Anti-Establishment Sentiment cantbeserious Oct 2015 #2

" An Age Of Anti-Establishment Sentiment". That's funny. Really. Persondem Oct 2015 #17

Guess One Does Not Follow The Sentiments Of Young Voters - Ignore Them At Your Own Peril cantbeserious Oct 2015 #26

i think that people that have such a hair trigger retrowire Oct 2015 #20

Do it! pinebox Oct 2015 #22

+1!!! BlueMTexpat Oct 2015 #42

Let me guess. You will support the candidate with the most money. I would ask why but doubt I'd get rhett o rick Oct 2015 #91

Fantastic list. I'd wager that 1, 3, and 6 are hot sellers. GoneFishin Oct 2015 #101

I think 3. We've raised a couple of generations with too many authoritarians. rhett o rick Oct 2015 #110

People have different opinions about things sometimes. I doubt that a bunch of misleading DanTex Oct 2015 #3

It's cute Dan pinebox Oct 2015 #7

See, that's an example of a different opinion. DanTex Oct 2015 #8

3.4%? pinebox Oct 2015 #13

Yup. That's what you get when you divide the total from financial employees by the total she raised DanTex Oct 2015 #66

He never effectively responds on the charts kenfrequed Oct 2015 #9

Yup pinebox Oct 2015 #16

His current kick is this guns-and-hammers thing. Jim Lane Oct 2015 #99

Why do you bring up gun industry having special legal immunity? cui bono Oct 2015 #19

Because Bernie voted for that. DanTex Oct 2015 #72

No he didn't. cui bono Oct 2015 #83

I have read your post where you mention the gun industries have special immunity from being sued A Simple Game Oct 2015 #71

PLCAA. It was the NRA's top legislative priority, and Bernie voted for it. DanTex Oct 2015 #73

Wow, good for Bernie, that law ended a very discriminatory practice of suing gun A Simple Game Oct 2015 #76

It's the protection of lawful commerce in arms act mythology Oct 2015 #74

They are changing many of them. Why do you think that a virtually unknown Senator sabrina 1 Oct 2015 #102

I doubt that. People who support Bernie do it because of his message, not because of some dumb DanTex Oct 2015 #103

Thank you for the condescension! hrmjustin Oct 2015 #4

And there it is. beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #5

For the vast majority, I don't think you need to convince them on the issues. randome Oct 2015 #6

"she has the campaign machine" cui bono Oct 2015 #24

Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2015 #59

I agree completely. Clinton is no Obama. Sanders is closer in character. randome Oct 2015 #78

It's already changing. You can join the revolution or remain part of the problem. cui bono Oct 2015 #84

There is no after the election anymore LostOne4Ever Oct 2015 #107

Well, when you're owned by the banksters who finance you hifiguy Oct 2015 #87

This message was self-deleted by its author hifiguy Oct 2015 #88

How does she have the electoral votes lined up? Fawke Em Oct 2015 #70

Doesn't she already have some super-delegate votes lined up? randome Oct 2015 #75

the superdelegate thing is what the hrc campaign is selling restorefreedom Oct 2015 #97

She had the pre-sale password? cui bono Oct 2015 #89

Stop bashing! Talk about ISSUES! Welll....not those issues. K&R Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2015 #10

The issues! Nt artislife Oct 2015 #77

Nice cherry-picking of charts. BlueWaveDem Oct 2015 #11

Speaking of cherry picking... That article cherry picks charts that ignore number of donors... cascadiance Oct 2015 #14

You realize her LARGEST contributors were unions, right? BlueWaveDem Oct 2015 #18

You also realize that the union membership have been rejecting their leaders' "union endorsements".. cascadiance Oct 2015 #37

Read the fine print: George II Oct 2015 #85

Well, that shows a history of how the two candidates have been funded. How about this present one cascadiance Oct 2015 #86

Again, that pie chart only shows undefined % - are those % of total donations or % of total donors? George II Oct 2015 #90

It seems pretty clear that the graph represents numbers of donations... cascadiance Oct 2015 #95

Nice try? pinebox Oct 2015 #15

Yes. Those charts are completely wrong. BlueWaveDem Oct 2015 #21

Let's take a look pinebox Oct 2015 #27

Read it. It was written in July. She already announced support for "the other half". BlueWaveDem Oct 2015 #30

Outdated? pinebox Oct 2015 #45

If she's not against TPP, her stance "against KXL", amongst others are MEANINGLESS propaganda... cascadiance Oct 2015 #39

No you cant ibegurpard Oct 2015 #12

I stand by my comments pinebox Oct 2015 #51

No way. Sanders goes down in idealogical flames ala Stephenson and McGovern. Persondem Oct 2015 #23

Those are all things the people admire and support. cui bono Oct 2015 #29

Thank you for the nice reply. I just don't see it that way. Persondem Oct 2015 #33

But Sanders is a democratic socialist. And that was used against Obama and he won. cui bono Oct 2015 #36

He can't win in a general? pinebox Oct 2015 #53

Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2015 #25

It;s the establishment vs the people. The establishment holds NorthCarolina Oct 2015 #28

about the voting machines questionseverything Oct 2015 #56

I am voting for Hillary Rodham Clinton.... stonecutter357 Oct 2015 #31

Ten tell us why you think Hillary is a better candidate pinebox Oct 2015 #46

Hillary and Bush - McCandidates manufactured just for you in carefully controlled environments... whereisjustice Oct 2015 #32

Still with Hill. What a bunch of condescending tripe. Metric System Oct 2015 #34

Ahh no argument? pinebox Oct 2015 #47

What's the point in wasting time arguing with someone who writes, "There is literally NO reason to Metric System Oct 2015 #67

Bernie can't win in the general election. workinclasszero Oct 2015 #35

Ya Obama couldn't either, right? pinebox Oct 2015 #48

Please...Bernie is no BHO workinclasszero Oct 2015 #57

Thankfully, you are absolutely correct!!! cui bono Oct 2015 #65

Which is the reason why the polls show just the opposite? LostOne4Ever Oct 2015 #109

The title of your diary is very bold ejbr Oct 2015 #38

Is Bernie Sanders a woman? hughee99 Oct 2015 #40

Thank you I now see that MyNameGoesHere Oct 2015 #41

O'Malley is a great candidate pinebox Oct 2015 #50

Isn't the air kind of thin up there? JoePhilly Oct 2015 #43

And highly oxygenated pinebox Oct 2015 #49

I get the sense that you do not know what thin air at higher altitudes actually means. JoePhilly Oct 2015 #106

That depends Joe pinebox Oct 2015 #108

Hill cannot and will not win. SoapBox Oct 2015 #44

From the looks of your first comparison chart Andy823 Oct 2015 #52

O'Malley would be good pinebox Oct 2015 #54

I did not see anything about the Commodities Futures Modernization Act of 2000, this was a big Thinkingabout Oct 2015 #55

Can you cite proof of your claim about the CFMA? Tia! beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #58

Not quite thesquanderer Oct 2015 #63

Here is the bill information Thinkingabout Oct 2015 #80

Your link proves my point thesquanderer Oct 2015 #94

The question is did Bernie vote for HR 4541, yes he did. Thinkingabout Oct 2015 #96

Well... thesquanderer Oct 2015 #98

Bush already had bill to go to war, AUMF which only had ONE no vote, Barbara Lee. Thinkingabout Oct 2015 #104

AUMF didn't authorize action against Iraq thesquanderer Oct 2015 #105

Oh, and also... thesquanderer Oct 2015 #100

STOP ATTACKING HILLARY!!!!!.... with actual facts that point our her shortcomings.... Indepatriot Oct 2015 #60

This is a convincing display for those who can be convinced. abakan Oct 2015 #61

... Dr Hobbitstein Oct 2015 #62

Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Oct 2015 #64

No, Bernie, guns are not 'different' in Vermont Dems to Win Oct 2015 #68

You can sure try! Juicy_Bellows Oct 2015 #69

Condescending tripe taught_me_patience Oct 2015 #79

When someone starts from that position, there's no point in arguing with them. Metric System Oct 2015 #81

Actually I ended with that position pinebox Oct 2015 #92

agree. riversedge Oct 2015 #82

Maybe you should pinebox Oct 2015 #93