Confederate Flag a Symbol of Divisiveness, Not Heritage

[drakonyx]

Texas has been weighing a proposal to issue a license plate bearing the Confederate flag. Meanwhile, commissioners in Caddo Parish, Louisiana, are deciding whether to remove a Confederate flag from in front of their courthouse.

Many people have pointed out that African-Americans view the Confederate Battle Flag is a symbol of their former enslavement. But the offensiveness of the symbol goes even deeper than that. It's a symbol of division between North and South, and it's a banner under which hundreds of thousands of Americans died. This is something to celebrate? This is a symbol of cultural identity?

http://www.theprovocation.net/2011/11/confederate-flag-symbol-of-divisiveness.html

[libinnyandia]

1. It's personal

My great great grandfather died because of those who flew the Confederate flag. They sought to destroy this nation and their descendants refuse to accept that. I would think that those who have moved south and have no connections to those rebel would be opposed to the glorification of treason.

[EC]

2. +100

[pscot]

3. It's the flag of treason

[SoutherDem]

4. If the Confederate Flag is a mark of heritage why not the swastika?

Both are so offensive to others they need to be eliminated from any government use. That isn't censorship it is human compassion.

[Lionessa]

5. Bullshit! It is both a symbol of divisiveness AND heritage.

Because the South's heritage is about both slavery and a desire to separate from the North. That is their heritage and it is divisive. It's not an either/or, instead it's both.

[RZM]

7. LOL. Beat me to it by one minute n/t

[RZM]

6. I think it's a symbol of both, actually

Seceding from the Union IS part of the south's heritage, as is the legacy/veneration of the Confederate military. As so often happens in debates like this, the most committed on either side seem to miss the middle ground. 'Heritage not Hate' plays down the darker side of things while 'Divisiveness not Heritage' plays down the very real history of the south as a distinct region/cultural unit with the US.

[libinnyandia]

11. Americans first

If someone were to ask me my cultural identity, I would say American. I ahppen to be an American born and raised in one state, but I am an American. A lot of Texans, and I guess alot of mostly southerners might say their state first. Is the culture of the South better than the culture of the North? Is the culture of the East better than the culture of the West?

[RZM]

12. I don't know. Would they?

Seems to me that a lot of southerners see themselves as dedicated American patriots. That actually isn't the case in many other countries, where regional identification overwhelmingly trumps national identification.

I don't live in the south and I haven't visited there much, but that is the impression I get.

If you asked me, I would probably grudgingly admit American as my primary identification, but I 'rep' my hometown much harder, as it were ;)

[Papagoose]

8. Living in the south, I'm used to seeing it evey day, but I don't get it

The main explanation I hear is that folks are just celebrating their southern heritage. To that I've always thought about how I'm from a German family...I have blood relatives who fought and died for Nazi Germany in WWII. I'm by no means ashamed that people that lived long before me were on the wrong side of history, but for crying out loud, the thought of flying a swastika is repulsive to me. I'm told that I don't get it when I make that comparison, but that's really how I see it.

I'm also baffled when I see American flags and confederate battle standards (the Stars & Bars was not the flag of the CSA) flying side by side. How does one consider themselves to be patriotic when they fly the flag of a treasonous rebellion?

The only exception I have to my negative feelings about this is when I see the confederate colors flying over a confederate cemetery. There are quite a few confederate graves close to my home, and it really doesn't bother me in that context at all.

[provis99]

10. what they fail to tell you in the South,

is that the flag called the "Confederate flag", or sometimes called the "Confederate battle flag", was never flown by the Confederacy at all. It is partly based on the battle emblem for the Army of Virginia, and partly based on the naval jack, but it is neither. The "Confederate flag" in its current dimensions was invented by the Ku Klux Klan in 1865.

so when they mean heritage, they really mean the heritage of white supremacy, segregation, and repression.

[provis99]

9. plenty of white Southerners hate the Confederate flag, too.

That, more than anything, show it is a lie to say this is all about "heritage".

And I have seen that damned flag all over Indiana. Is it about "heritage" there, too?

[RZM]

13. It probably is

Many people from the south moved north in the first half of the 20th century, especially for factory jobs in WWII.

My hometown (Dayton, OH) is a prime example. A good percentage of the working-class white population there is descended from Appalachians (especially from Eastern Kentucky) who moved north during the war for jobs. The joke is that they were on their way to Detroit but got waylaid in Dayton ;)

Also, I don't know about Indiana, but many people in southern/southwestern Ohio did not support the Union war effort. The poster child of the 'Copperheads' in Ohio was actually from Dayton. He ran for governor in 1864 and lost, much to the joy of President Lincoln. After the results for in, Lincoln commented that 'Ohio has saved the Union.' I assume that was true in parts of Indiana as well, especially southern Indiana, which has close ties with the south because of the rivers etc.

[provis99]

15. plenty of white people in the South opposed the Confederacy

a fact that most Confederate flag wavers deny. Look at West Virginia; it was crawling with so many Union sympathizers it broke away from Virginia. Wholes areas of western North Carolina were unsafe for Confederate sympathizers; the NC governor threatened to pull out of the Confederacy. The Appalachian region in general was more pro-Union than pro-Confederate, likely due to the general absence of slaves in the area, and the hostility of those people toward the Tidewater slave owners.

Kentucky and Missouri both slave states which were actually admitted to the Confederacy (two of the stars on the Stars and Bars are for those states), wound up staying on the Union side because of massive pro-Union sentiment. The slave states of Delaware and Maryland never even considered joining the Confederacy, and both of those states were definitely south of the Mason-Dixon line.

If you go traveling through Southern states, you will note that Union county pops up from time to time. That is because the people in that area opposed the Confederacy in favor of the Union, and proclaimed it by changing the county names after the war.

The area I grew up in, northeast Mississippi, was notorious for union sympathy. The main Union supply base in Mississippi at Holly Springs was barely guarded, because the locals turned out to protect the area from Confederate guerrillas during the war.

Yet in all those areas today, the Confederate flag is all over the place, despite the probability that their ancestors may have been among the Southerners that opposed the Confederacy. The reason is that the modern day people are racists; they are not concerned with the "heritage" of the flag, even if their own ancestors fought against it.

Interestingly, those Southern immigrants you are talking about came from the areas of the South where anti-Confederate attitudes were most prevalent, so I hardly think that is the reason they fly the Confederate flag. Racism against their black neighbors is certainly the reason I got from the hillbillies in east Indianapolis when I talked to my neighbors there. They all seemed to fly the flag to offend their black neighbors. There have even been local news reports on this phenomena of the poor whites of east Indianapolis flying the flag specifically to offend people in the black ghettos across the street.

The same I found, is true in Martinsville, Valparaiso, and Seymour, three towns that were definitely not settled by predominantly Appalachian people; they were settled by German and Irish Catholic immigrants who came in during or after the war. Yet you can find the Confederate flag all over those towns. Each of these towns were incidentally also notorious for being sundown towns in the 1920's and 1930's, and indication of racial hostility rather than "heritage".

[RZM]

16. I see your point

I would point out two things.

1) While many regions of Appalachia were not known for strong support of the Confederacy, there still were supporters of the Confederacy that lived there. Not everybody, yes, but for every southern/border locale with Union sympathizers, there were many Confederate sympathizers too. So some people who have Appalachian heritage venerate the symbol do so out of genuine affinity for it.

2) The Confederate Flag as 'white identity.' The idea of articulating your identity as a white person is not a strictly Confederate thing, but the Confederate Flag remains one of the few usable symbols for doing that. You're right that plenty of people who fly it probably had ancestors that didn't. The thing is, white identity is something that frowned upon in public official culture. Nonetheless, there are many people who want to articulate their white identity anyway, and the Confederate flag is one of the few available symbols to do so. You can wave around Jared Taylor books all you want, but in the end few people are going to identify with that or even know what you are talking about. With the Confederate flag, you have a recognizable and usable symbol, even if the particular legacies of it might not comport with your own family history.

[Stuckinthebush]

25. This life-long southerner does

I hate the stupid thing. My ancestors from both sides of my family fought and even led confederate forces. To me, those ancestors were committing treason. I'm not proud of them.

I can sum up my 45 years of experience in the south with this issue like so: I see the confederate flag mostly in the rural areas, but it is seen in the cities here and there. Most people I know are embarrassed by this issue and wish it would go away. I also see it on college campuses at some fraternities (KA - SAE) that actively celebrate this flag as a symbol of a mythological, idealized past. THere is also veiled racism in flying the flag in these fraternities. In rural areas, the racism isn't as veiled.

[Papagoose]

27. My brother who lives in PA flies it in his front yard and has it tatooed on his arm

The closest he's come to being a southerner is visiting Florida.

[Graveyard]

14. The Confederate Flag represents poor people doing the 1%'s dirty work

[GoddessOfGuinness]

19. My great-grandfather was one of them

He was a GA blacksmith who never owned a slave, and joined the southern cause because of the "states' rights" issue. After it was all over, he told his sons they should avoid going to war at all cost. He never felt the need to display a confederate flag, and never taught his children that it was part of their heritage.

[dballance]

17. I'm From the South and I Despise the Confederate Flag

It is a symbol of treason, of slavery, of ignorance. The Germans outlawed the Nazi flag, we should have outlawed the confederate flag long ago.

[JustAmused]

18. Already?

I did not realize it was South-bashing week again already. Where did the time go?
Actually I love these threads. They make reading DU much easier since I can always
add about 15 self-righteous know-nothings to my ignore list. Thanks for posting the thread
and doing your part to help me eliminate mindless crap in my daily reading.

It really amazes me when I see the hateful posts on these threads by the same people
who loudly wail about all the hate on the other side. Food for thought, if you are capable.
I suggest some of you bookmark a few of the constant South-hating threads for reading the
next time you ask the question..."Why can't we win the South? " In part, it is the very
attitude you carry around with you, ready to spew on a page at the drop of any mention of the South.
So as we say down here....Y'all dont come back now, ya heah??

[Enthusiast]

21. What about the incest?

[Butch350]

26. Some of the Finest people I know are from the South!

I'm a dirty "southern lover" and proud of it - lived in misery xx missouri all my life.

[yellowcanine]

29. Criticizing the Confederate flag is not the same as South-bashing.

There are many people, whites and blacks, who live in the South for whom this is a painful symbol. They are just as much Southerners as the Confederate flag wavers.

[classysassy]

20. I have a Confederate flag

but is use it for my butt,it's a pillow used at ball games in order to inflame southern pro flag supporters.

[Capt. America]

22. If someone flew the Swastika or Rising Sun while WWII vets still live it is offensive,

but, apparently, since all of the soldiers who fought and died for unification of the states are in the ground its okay to fly the Confederate battle flag.

[txlibdem]

23. I live in Texas but wasn't born here - and I agree 100%

Just as the Nazi flag, the hammer and sickle and Mao's little red book, the confederate flag is a symbol of hate and violence. It is not part of any "heritage" that Americans should want to have.

[JustAmused]

30. Read some history

At any rate, bye Tex.

Another one bites the dust.

[The Backlash Cometh]

24. I don't care for the flag, but I would like to find a way to gauge the intense dislike for this

flag by the people who would resent it the most. So I ask this question: Does it emote the same kinds of feelings as the nazi symbol?

[yellowcanine]

28. I don't care if people want to fly it, put it on a bumper sticker, whatever. But don't

use tax money to fly it as an official state symbol or allow it on license plates. And if you are flying it, don't preach to me about the Constitution or about patriotism to the U.S.A. Because it is not a symbol of either.