pauliedangerously
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Mon Oct-18-04 12:53 AM
Original message |
This is why I have a problem with Christianity |
tuvor
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:00 AM
Response to Original message |
1. If I may humbly suggest... |
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You seem to have a problem instead with people who've hijacked Christianity.
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qnr
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #1 |
3. Valid point, but regardless, it's still "Christianity" |
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Edited on Mon Oct-18-04 01:06 AM by qnr
if you see what I'm saying. Doesn't matter whether you believe that it is real Christianity or not, they claim to be Christians, and that is what everyone sees. Besides, without the whole "Rapture" bit is tied to Christianity, so the point is still valid.
Just saying, that's all.
Edit: Deleted a word
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pauliedangerously
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #1 |
5. And if I may so humbly retort.... |
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How could someone hijack atheism?
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Droopy
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:02 AM
Response to Original message |
2. There are a lot of liberal Christians on this board |
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And I agree with their interpretation more than I do the fundies. The point is that I think that people who truely follow the teachings of Christ tend to be more liberal. It's just that a bunch of conservatives have highjacked the religion and tried to make liberals appear unworthy. Who are you going to believe is what it boils down to. I don't think that there is anything wrong with Christianity with the right interpretation.
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JohnKleeb
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
4. Christianity is such a diverse faith too |
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My family has never had any thing to do with fundies.
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pauliedangerously
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
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If it's subject to interpretation, and such a wide range of interpretation, what good is it?
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WilliamPitt
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #6 |
8. "If it's subject to interpretation...what good is it?" |
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I assume you have never studied philosophy, political science or literature.
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pauliedangerously
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #8 |
14. That would be an incorrect assumption |
Maddy McCall
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #14 |
15. Hmmm...looks like that went right over your head. |
pauliedangerously
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #15 |
21. OOOPS, you're right; it did |
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Okay....I didn't make a very good point.
It's not just a matter of interpretation. Philosophy and politics don't employ supernatural scare tactics to make their points; instead they use logic and reason, and they don't claim to be the final word, or the word of the creator, or make empty promises like eternal life in paradise.
Thanks for keeping me on my toes!!
:)
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Maddy McCall
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #21 |
45. You are saying that politics is about logic and reason??? |
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That's new to me. Perhaps you mean the sciences. Politics, though? Uh uh.
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pauliedangerously
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #45 |
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That's a pretty weak argument...sounds like something GWB would say.
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SemiCharmedQuark
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #56 |
57. Actually something GWB does do is think himself better than others based |
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Edited on Mon Oct-18-04 02:26 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
on the faiths they choose or choose not to accept. Kind of like you are doing at the moment...
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pauliedangerously
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #57 |
64. I would never presume to think what others think. |
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I haven't made any suggestion whatsoever that I am better than anyone else. Moreover, I doubt that GWB even believes in God; he is using "faith" as a tool to manipulate people.
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SemiCharmedQuark
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #64 |
65. Yes you seem to think that atheists could never do the things fundies do |
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Edited on Mon Oct-18-04 02:36 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
That seems to be an "Im better than they are" claim. By your own admission GWB isn't doing what he is doing based on faith, he is doing it based on secular reasons.
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Maddy McCall
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #56 |
JohnKleeb
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #21 |
50. Really, its not the scare tactics that made me christian |
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It's the belief that good deeds are the right thing to do, that we should help those in need, and yes that there is a heaven.
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pauliedangerously
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #50 |
59. That may be true for you... |
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But the "fear of God" exists nontheless. I've met hundreds of people who wouldn't DARE express disbelief in God in fear of going to Hell.
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Maddy McCall
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #59 |
pauliedangerously
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #60 |
Maddy McCall
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Mon Oct-18-04 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #67 |
Droopy
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #6 |
10. I really don't know. I'm an atheist. |
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But I agree that Jesus was a kind, loving, liberal man. With a few conservative stances. And that is the correct interpretation. All those asshole fundie polititians and preachers are just on a power trip to promote a more conservative agenda and to keep themselves in power.
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jdj
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
9. Um, can you people steal your faith back from the interlopers??? |
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Any day now...
Ohterwise, stop making excuses for them.
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Droopy
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #9 |
24. Then you agree that Christianity practiced correctly |
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is a peace loving religion. I'm sure that people who practice the way Christ tought can't help it that there are others that practice in an incorrect way. I'll bet that they are doing what they can do.
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jdj
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #24 |
29. Well I was raised a Christian, but the kind that y'all are scared of. |
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I don't want to hear they can't help it. I want to hear them do something about it.
Because it's so lame, like hearing a little kid playing monopoly whine about how someone isn't playing by the rules.
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JohnKleeb
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #29 |
31. well I agree with you that we should try to stop the fundie influx in |
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churches but it doesnt end just like that, remember Falwell and Robertson weren't up and public in a day, they built from the ground up.
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jdj
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #31 |
39. By billionaires like Moon, et al, who also own the press. |
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The time has come today, though.
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JohnKleeb
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #39 |
44. We're not all billionaires and Reverend Moon is a cult leader |
jdj
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #44 |
46. Um, did you misread my post? Moon is a billionaire donor to LaHaye |
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Falwell, Poppy Bush, etc, etc.
That's one more ignorant assumption of the masses, that all that money isn't somehow influencing policy.
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JohnKleeb
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #46 |
51. Sorry I am tired and I make reading mistakes |
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Its just really goddamn hard to take back a whole religion after so much corrupiton of faith and consider the diversity of this religion.
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jdj
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #51 |
55. You are fighting SO MUCH MONEY! That is the true evil. |
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It's really a David and Goliath thing.
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JohnKleeb
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #55 |
58. not just money, numbers |
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You can't expect us to take back our whole religion in a day, its not that simple.
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JohnKleeb
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #9 |
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Do you realize how diverse Christianity really is, there are many, many different kinds of faiths. Heck in Catholicism, there's even different branches of that. We do what we can.
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jdj
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #28 |
30. All the more reason for y'all to get together and kick their asses. |
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what're ya skeered of?
the fate of the world depends on it now.
It's time to stop turning cheeks, ya only got 2. (or 4 depending on how ya look at it) we're way past that now.
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WilliamPitt
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:09 AM
Response to Original message |
7. "Could atheists do this?" |
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Edited on Mon Oct-18-04 01:10 AM by WilliamPitt
One word: Stalin.
P.S. I am a Christian.
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jdj
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #7 |
11. yeah, but he happened after a monarchy when |
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the population of mostly peasants thought they were going to get a better deal.
We have the highest standard of living in the world, so what is our excuse?
(My pet theory is child abuse, but people aren't ready for that reality yet. They are just getting used to the fact that the people they used to mock, fundies, have amassed enough political power to end life on this planet as we know it,all the while they were making Ernest Aingsley jokes.)
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pauliedangerously
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #7 |
12. Stalin was a dictator... |
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I'm referring to the usurping of this country.
Try again.
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WilliamPitt
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #12 |
19. You're refering to a ruling caste with no regard for human life |
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and claiming that only Christians (or other religious types) could be this way.
I say again: Stalin.
If 2+2=4 logic doesn't grab you, I assume you're just out to pick a fight. If so, gas face.
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JVS
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #19 |
27. He shoots, he scores. Topping off with a "Gas face" |
jdj
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #27 |
36. I hate it when people make jokes I don't understand. |
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Edited on Mon Oct-18-04 01:47 AM by jdjkkse
Gas face?
I think this whole thing is a big Daddy/Stockholm syndrome-thing, we's a still a tryin' to love that big brutal butt-bustin' Daddy, so you're right in pointing out that it isn't religion, it's an inherent coping mechanism in human nature...denial, dissassociation,etc. Oh for the day when humanity values children enough to really examine this.
edit: I just read a book on Stalin from an American who went there and went to the camps in Siberia, etc, and he interview a couple of people who to this day are Stalin groupies and defend him to the death. It's all psyche-logical.
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pauliedangerously
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #19 |
32. I'm not trying to pick a fight at all |
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I'm making a point here that this supposedly benign thing is being used to manipulate and destroy others.
The fact is, Christianity is based on falsehoods. Just because the protagonist of the NT was a great fellow doesn't mean that he really existed. Further, the story of his coming about is pure fiction. His resurrection is pure fiction. Creating fish from nothing is pure fiction.
People are goaded into believing all of these outrageous falsehoods because the protagonist was a great guy.
What could be more wrong? We have a growing population that cannot distinguish between reality and fiction because of this great thing you call Christianity.
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OneBlueSky
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:14 AM
Response to Original message |
13. it's not true Christians who are doing it . . . |
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it's pseudo-Christians . . . or Christianoids, if you prefer . . . any relationship to the teachings of JC are purely coincidental . . . if they exist at all . . .
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Pithlet
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #13 |
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To all of DU: Let's please all come to a consensus about what we should call these people, so that we can continue to criticize and fight against them without "Oh poor persecuted Christians!"
Jeez people. Whatever you call these nuts, they are very dangerous. Instead of berating us, join us in fighting these wackos. I don't care if they call themselves Christians, they need to be stopped.
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Behind the Aegis
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #16 |
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Great idea! A new name! My fingers hurt from typing so much about how it is not ALL Christians being criticized! Just those who make our lives a living Hell!
Brightest Blessings!
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qnr
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #18 |
20. I agree, friggn' Christians, couldn't they have a shorter name? |
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Edited on Mon Oct-18-04 01:28 AM by qnr
Or fundamentalists, or Christian conservatives, whatever we're gonna call them - lets make it shorter.
I'm kidding, I'm kidding....
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Behind the Aegis
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #20 |
23. how about we call them... |
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IANS! That is what they seem like to me. Why IANS? Because they left out Christ! They do not follow His teachings nor adhere to His beliefs! I think IANS is a good desorption!
:)
Brightest Blessings!
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qnr
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #23 |
Pithlet
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #23 |
37. Hey! My son is named Ian |
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We can't be bashing Ians, now. :)
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qnr
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #37 |
41. Kinda sounds like a band... "Bashing Ians" n/t |
Behind the Aegis
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #37 |
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How about *IANS? The * would show that something is missing...mainly "Christ" from the equation. IS that OK!??! :)
Brightest Blessings!
(BTW...been reading your other posts...you crack me up!)
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jdj
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #23 |
49. I like to type Chri$tian$ to make a point. |
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But it is pronounced the same, just a little cha-ching behind it.
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pauliedangerously
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #13 |
17. Ah yes, the old "TRUE" Christian argument |
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Never met one who didn't think he/she was a true one.
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Zomby Woof
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:28 AM
Response to Original message |
22. This non-dogmatic atheist |
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Has a problem with pseudointellectual flamebait.
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Maddy McCall
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
madrchsod
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
35. shit i just fell for it |
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oh well thanks for reminding me...but i still stand for what i said
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pauliedangerously
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
40. Then why did you throw a stick into it? eom |
madrchsod
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:43 AM
Response to Original message |
33. they are not Christians |
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i`m getting really fuck`n tired of people using "the problem with Christianity" and thinking all Christians or better said, believers in Christ`s teachings, as some kind of disease upon the land. i find it insulting to lump me and others on this board who understand that real Christians are not like those who defile the name and teachings of Christ. i personally would like to live my life closer to his teachings but i can`t because i`m human. to those scum who use Christ to enrich themselves at the expense of others i hope you rot in their your own personal hell. `
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Droopy
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #33 |
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Nothing like the righteous anger of a true Christian.
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Djinn
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #33 |
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and are capable of massive violence and brutality regardless of the colour of their God or whether or not they beleive in one at all.
That said I don't know how people have decided that the fundies are distorting Christianity (or whatever religion) and that the peace loving turn the other cheek types are REAL Christians.
From my reading the Bible is a little hazy and is riddled with contradictions (the Old and New Testament and the Koran all have thuis problem) so maybe it's the hellfire ones that have it right and the rest have it wrong, I think it's a bit presumptious to label your own beliefs as "true" Christianity/Judaism/Islam etc.
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Spider Jerusalem
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:44 AM
Response to Original message |
34. You should have a problem with humanity, instead. |
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ANY ideology can lead to some seriously fucked-up things. One only has to look at the past century of human history to see the havoc wrought by ideologues, and not even Christian ideologues at that. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and all the others...it's not just Christianity that's the problem.
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JVS
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Mon Oct-18-04 01:52 AM
Response to Original message |
43. Nobody cares that you have a problem with Christianity |
jdj
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #43 |
47. Everybody should have a problem with Christianity at this point. |
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Edited on Mon Oct-18-04 02:02 AM by jdjkkse
Christians especially, since our whole foreign policy is being committed in the name of Jesus Christ. If true Christians are okay with this, then fuck me.
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SemiCharmedQuark
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:09 AM
Response to Original message |
52. Nice Flamebait: ANY ideology taken to extremes will lead to destruction |
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Edited on Mon Oct-18-04 02:12 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
And what I have a problem with is people trying to show how much better they are than everyone else because of their "beliefs". Just because your belief is "atheist" do you think that makes you better than someone coming into the lounge and saying "The problem I have with atheists is that their philosophy is completely wrong and they are the root of all evil in the world."
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JohnKleeb
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #52 |
qnr
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #52 |
62. Doesn't bother me a bit, |
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just another eeeeevil Christian ragging on me.
Phffffft
Just kidding, technically, I'm a lot more offended by someone unfairly claiming I'm insulting their religion than I ever would be by someone insulting my lack of one :shrug:
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SemiCharmedQuark
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #62 |
63. Not insulting the religion |
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Insulting the people. People do horrible things regardless of religion. There are all kinds of extremists that do horrible things to get their point across. To claim that one type of people is better than another is pure crap. It's wrong if Christians do it to atheists and it's wrong if atheists do it to Christians...etc.
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qnr
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #63 |
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Edited on Mon Oct-18-04 02:40 AM by qnr
as I mentioned in the "I know nice Christians" thread, you practically have to narrow the group down some, even if you are calling them "carbon based lifeforms" but you do it hoping that people know that you aren't saying that it is true of all carbon based lifeforms.
How far can you narrow it down? Even members of the same physical church will generally act at least slightly differently.
I do understand your point. But some things just upset an individual more than others. In this case, the something that set someone off involved a segment of people claiming Christianity.
Edit: Added last paragraph, corrected typo.
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SemiCharmedQuark
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #66 |
68. There are extremists in other religions |
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Wouldn't it be more prudent to "narrow the field down" to "religious extremists" rather than "Christians"?
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qnr
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #68 |
69. Maybe, but harder to type. Just kidding, but |
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Edited on Mon Oct-18-04 02:42 AM by qnr
you don't always carefully pick your words (though we should), especially when upset.
Edit: "you" in the general sense, of course
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SemiCharmedQuark
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #69 |
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I completely understand. But the poster should have rephrased than rather than let this flamebait go on.
Thanks for a good discussion qnr :hi:
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qnr
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #70 |
71. Thank you, you too :) |
MatrixEscape
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Mon Oct-18-04 02:11 AM
Response to Original message |
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both ways. I think that extending tolerance to intolerant people is a better way to go, when possible. Why become just like that which you detest. There are other ways to go about dealing with a problem.
If you look into the history of the Religious Right, you might get more insight into it. A little research goes a long way.
I don't see how blaming the Fundies or being angry at them is useful. The GOP and the Fundies were being opportunistic. They jumped on a situation that I believe was created by Liberals, Democrats, Moderates, etc. Nobody cared, and they did the hard work and got what they wanted.
I agree that they are worthy of concern. I think they can be pushed back politically, but only with awareness and effort. Maybe this will be a lesson to people that, even if you have to chose the lessor of two evils, apathy creates a vacuum that someone else will fill!
Stay active, open your eyes, and be poltically involved. Then you won't have to resent those who do.
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