Anti-gunners counterattack on Gunwalker by blaming gun laws, smearing Issa

[Hoopla Phil]

“As the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform focuses on alleged failures of the U.S. Justice Department’s program to stop gun trafficking to Mexico, a new study by the Violence Policy Center (VPC) identifies the major force driving the criminal cross-border gun traffic: the gun industry’s cynical militarization of the U.S. civilian gun market,” a new Violence Policy Center press release claims.

So rather than demand the truth in allegations with supporting documentation by Bureau whistleblowers that the government allowed guns to “walk” into the hands of the Mexican cartels, VPC tells us “U.S. Civilian Gun Market Has Become a Militarized Bazaar.” Even though plenty of evidence suggest true military armaments come from approved U.S. exports to the Mexican government, as well as via smuggling operations though Central America.

Ever eager for talking points to support the narrative their agenda demands, the "Authorized Journalists" who have been absent from any presence in the Gunwalker scandal have been quick to latch onto this “authoritative” treasure trove. So we see headlines from CNN and the Associated Press telling us Mexican drug gangs get their weapons from the civilian U.S. gun market—the new figure is 70%, down from the previous 95-100%, then 90%, then 80%…conveniently not explaining that 70% of the tiny fraction submitted for tracing bears no relation to the total number seized, which in itself is hardly reflective of the total number possessed and used by the cartels…especially when we see actual military ordnance like machine guns, grenades, etc.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/anti-gunners-counterattack-on-gunwalker-by-blaming-gun-laws-smearing-issa

It is unfortunate that some cannot get passed their partisanship or blind bigotry of gun owners to see the evidence that is placed in front of them. There is mounting evidence that the ATF violated US laws, International laws, and the deaths of many innocents was the result.

[virginia mountainman]

1. Typical..

But that is simply, all they know how to do...

And this is a significant reason why they find themselves, so far outside of the mainstream.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tularetom]

3. Agree with everything except the smearing Issa part

For a lot of reasons that piece of shit deserves all the smearing he can get.

I don't give a fuck if he is right about this he's wrong about everything else.

[Hoopla Phil]

6. I think I'll just quote myself from my O.P.

It is unfortunate that some cannot get passed their partisanship or blind bigotry of gun owners to see the evidence that is placed in front of them. There is mounting evidence that the ATF violated US laws, International laws, and the deaths of many innocents was the result.

It seems rather appropriate here. What would you say if you were to find out that operation fast and furious dates back to 2004? Remember who was president then?

[tularetom]

9. Did you even READ what I posted? I'm agreeing with you.

WTF are you talking about, blind bigotry of gun owners? I AM a gun owner and I don't consider myself a blind bigot at all.

ATF is guilty as sin and deserves whatever happens as a result of this, but I'm not going to express any support for a piece of slime like Issa.

[Hoopla Phil]

11. This is what I'm referring to.

"I don't give a fuck if he is right about this he's wrong about everything else."

I DO give a fuck that he is right about this because he seems to be the only one with any clout running with this. The smearing of Issa is a diversion being used to try and derail this serious matter.

[Tejas]

35. +1 I don't care if frigging Ronald Reagan is sitting in Issa's chair, innocents are dead c/o the

innocents are dead c/o the DOJ/ATF.

[onehandle]

4. You mean Darrell Issa? The right-wing Republican who votes with the GOP 98% of the time?

Who was a major factor in getting Davis recalled and Ahnold elected?

Fuck him.

[Hoopla Phil]

5. I think I'll just quote myself from my O.P.

It is unfortunate that some cannot get passed their partisanship or blind bigotry of gun owners to see the evidence that is placed in front of them. There is mounting evidence that the ATF violated US laws, International laws, and the deaths of many innocents was the result.

It seems rather appropriate here. What would you say if you were to find out that operation fast and furious dates back to 2004? Remember who was president then?

[gejohnston]

7. unfortunately yes but here is the reality

Leading Dems were not going to do anything because it serves their narrow political purposes, so ATF can commit crimes and violate civil rights and the left has no problem with it.
The same applies to the DEA and the right, it is golden child to the right. If it were the DEA, Issa would not give a shit.
Simple reason is this. The left sees target shooters and hunters as redneck terrorists that are standing in the way of civilized society and deserve whatever happens, the ends justifying the means. The right does the something with pot smokers and brown people.
I was once as idealistic as you and believed that our side was always the good guys and the right were always the bad guys. The real world does not work that way.

[eqfan592]

8. You hit the nail on the head. nt

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

30. Absolutely!

I'm sick of US dollars supporting a bunch idiotic wet dreams that some politician invents in a vote gathering scheme.
Back to Nixon's "war on drugs", (40 years old this month) I haven't seen that it's made a difference. I'd be shocked if the cost of the "war on drugs" was less than the market value of drugs seized/destroyed/interdicted...

I think there is little to no justification for either the ATF or DEA operating outside the US.

I'm sick of politicians spending more of their time and my money working for their party than they do for me.
I'm not sure I even have a party.

Issa is correct here merely by accident. Apparently the party leadership has a problem with that.


"Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men." ;)

[beevul]

10. The strategy is indicative...

The strategy is indicative, of quite a few things:

That theres an ideological element at work - pure Dem vs rep.

That theres a secondary idological element at work - anti-gun.


Most importantly though:

The anti-gun types involved in this strategy are worried. And not for Dem vs rep reasons.

They - the anti-gun lobby - know whats at stake, and their reactions should telegraph it to the rest of us - theres more than meets the eye going on with ATF.

Their strategy and the urgency in which they employ it suggests that they view ATF as one of THEIR resources.

Examine the entire history of their defense of ATF, both now and before "fast and furious" with an objective eye.

Now tell me I'm wrong.

[Tejas]

37. Yes, there's a connection.

Department of Justice pumps guns into Mexico ON PURPOSE
VPC/Schumer/Feinstein/Mcarthy release statement/"studies" screaming OMFGBANGUNS



If one single memo/email between any of the above parties surfaces that ties any of this together...

[HankyDubs]

12. fawning affection for Darrel Issa

and his refusal to allow testimony.

[eqfan592]

13. Testimony that has no bearing on the issue at hand...

...should be refused. But of course, you know this.

[DonP]

14. You mean irrelevant testimony, I'm sure

Somehow keeping the witness focused on the questions asked instead of allowing a tangential monologue unrelated to the question asked is a bad thing?

You must be a big fan of Ollie North then, and when he decided to do a monologue instead of answering direct questions from Dem legislators with Iran Contra, you must have applauded loudly.

I'd love it is it was somebody, anybody other than Issa but I don't see any Dems willing to step up yet and ask some hard questions of BATFE because they fear it may lead to Eric Holder's front door, or worse.

[HankyDubs]

15. wrong as usual

do you guys ever tire of being wrong?

The Ollie North comparison? You really had to reach deep into your rear for that one.

Seems to me that the agent was responding to a question from the (D) congresswoman from NY when he was interrupted and forbidden to present the facts as he saw them by your white knight/car thief Darell Issa.

The question was regarding the ineffectiveness of laws regarding straw purchases, which certainly IS relevant to the discussion.

Whether or not you agree with the agent or harbor grudges against the agency is NOT RELEVANT, but the testimony is.

[gejohnston]

16. the issue is criminal acts by the agency not going off on

bullshit how the ends justify the means. The problem with straw purchases is ineffective enforcement by an agency that wastes time doing this nonsense with many internal problems including resistant EEOC issues.

[HankyDubs]

17. so now you're saying

that when the agency is under attack they should not be allowed to offer facts to defend themselves?

Inneresting.

[eqfan592]

19. The agency is under attack...

....for intentionally NOT enforcing the law when they KNEW a crime was being committed. You have to be on a special kind of drug to not be able to see how that is different from a discussion of the effectiveness of such laws in general.

[Hoopla Phil]

25. They are under investigation of violating U.S. and International laws

that may have lead to the deaths of two U.S. officials and many Mexican citizens. Is that not worth investigating?

Bring up gun control is not germain to this investigation. Especially in light that one of the accusations is that the ATF ordered FFLs to make the sales - VIOLATING existing law!

[gejohnston]

38. How is "we violated US and international laws because the

law we are violating and not enforcing is not strong enough." That is a bullshit attempt of a defense, and no it should not be allowed as a valid defense. I don't care what party and of these people come from, the issue is right and wrong. When we go after the right for being dishonest and partisan, we are on the side of the angels. That said, we should never tolerate it from our own ranks. If you want to play the partisan game, you should be against the AWB because it was the brain child of Bill Bennett, enacted as an executive order by H.W. Bush. In 1994, Trent Lott and Richard Shelby voted for it and other right wingers voted for it.

[HankyDubs]

39. gungeoneers, engage your brains

I didn't defend the ATF's actions, and I certainly think an investigation is warranted. But I also believe that members of the agency should be able to defend themselves and certainly should be allowed to respond to direct questions from members of congress.

When I first suggested this CRAZY IDEA (that a person should be able to respond to a direct question asked by a congresswoman) I was told that this information was not "relevant." Since that was obviously a steaming pile of bullshit, gungeoneers have once again worked themselves into a lather in order to defend their NEW REPUBLIKLAN HERO (and car theif) Darrel Issa, while completely ignoring this pretty self-evident principle.

you should be against the AWB

I think the AWB gives us some interesting information on how to craft legislation in the future, but I'm not an enthusiastic supporter of bringing that particular piece of legislation back.

[gejohnston]

40. as long as the questions are about the wrong doing but as

As far as Issa is concerned, see post seven. That sums up what I think of all of these people. I don't care what the letter is next to their name is. I judge each idea on its own merits, and how it fits in my value system. The Dems have it right on most issues as far as I am concerned. So I vote Dem.
Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul agree about the Fed. I agree with both of them about dismantling the empire and using the savings for more worthwhile things. I happen to agree with Sanders on what to do with the money saved. Thom Hartmann and Phyllis Shafely agree that Marbury v. Madison was a bad decision. I am sure you have seen the list of Republicans that agree with you on guns.

I'll give you a more local example. Every election in Tampa, a guy that owns several porn shops and a couple of "gentleman's clubs" tries to unseat the Democratic retired school teacher on the city council. Every election he gets creamed even among the church folks that usually vote straight Republican.

[eqfan592]

41. It is not a "steaming pile of bullshit"

It was NOT a relevant line of questioning on the case! Exactly how are so called "toothless" laws a factor at all in an investigation dealing with the agency KNOWINGLY allowing criminals to commit crimes and doing NOTHING to intercede??? The agency could not possibly defend itself by claiming the laws were somehow "toothless" when it was THEY THEMSELVES that were refusing to actually enforce the laws when they KNEW they were being broken by specific individuals. They removed their own damned teeth!

Now if you want to have a discussion on ways the laws could be improved to aid in the agency bringing straw purchasers to justice IN general and make it easier to track them down and their networks, that is a discussion we can have, but NOT in the middle of a hearing dealing with the agency LOCATING straw buyers and intentionally doing NOTHING.

They are two completely separate discussions, end of story.

[gejohnston]

42. The Dem was trying to score points on a non related issue

If it were a Dem running the investigation of the DEA and some Republican asked an irrelevant and leading question you would object and rightfully so. The left is can be just as hypocritical and dishonest as the right. Just like the watch list, that Rachel Maddow and Thom Hartmann decried as containing no actual terrorists. That changed as soon as Republican Peter King and McCarthy decided that put that same list in NICS.

[Hoopla Phil]

21. And I'll repeat.

It is unfortunate that some cannot get passed their partisanship or blind bigotry of gun owners to see the evidence that is placed in front of them. There is mounting evidence that the ATF violated US laws, International laws, and the deaths of many innocents was the result.

Pontification of gun control laws is not germain to this serious investigation. As such it is NOT testimony as it has no business in this proceeding. Especially in light that one of the contentions is that the ATF told an FFL to BREAK THE EXISTING LAW and allow these sales to go forward. Perhaps what we need is a law making it an illegal act to order a person to violate the law. Or maybe a law making it criminal to violate a law during an investigation. Oh wait, we DO have those laws already.

[DanTex]

18. Liberals to the defense of Darrell Issa!!!

Stop the testimony now!!!!
No discussion of verboten topics!!!
Can't a right-winger have his witch hunts without getting smeared??

I wonder if pro-gun liberals ever tire of allying themselves with these kinds of people. I mean, yeah, I get it, you're liberal on other issues, "guilt by association", "ideological litmus tests", blah blah blah.

But seriously. Darrell Issa?? Really??

[eqfan592]

20. Thank you for underscoring...

...that you are incapable of setting your own bigotry aside in order to get to the bottom of what is going on at the ATF. :)

[DanTex]

22. Why do you keep calling people bigots? That's not very nice.

:cry:

[Hoopla Phil]

24. bigotry of gun owners does exist. It is a shame that it does.

[spin]

31. This investigation should not involve partisan politics ...

The facts are what is important and if the ATF or the justice department made bad decisions or had bad management the blame should be placed fairly and without political motivations.

One of the jobs of the ATF is to stop gun smuggling. They not only failed but they allowed it. It is quite possible that the weapons they allowed to walk will injure or kill many innocent people.

[Hoopla Phil]

23. And I repeat.

It is unfortunate that some cannot get passed their partisanship or blind bigotry of gun owners to see the evidence that is placed in front of them. There is mounting evidence that the ATF violated US laws, International laws, and the deaths of many innocents was the result.

Pontification of gun control laws is not germain to this serious investigation. As such it is NOT testimony as it has no business in this proceeding. Especially in light that one of the contentions is that the ATF told an FFL to BREAK THE EXISTING LAW and allow these sales to go forward. Perhaps what we need is a law making it an illegal act to order a person to violate the law. Or maybe a law making it criminal to violate a law during an investigation. Oh wait, we DO have those laws already.

Here is a term for you to look up, Bipartisanship.

[DanTex]

26. Bigotry again! You guys are brutal. Because I don't like Darrell Issa??

Have you seen the kinds of things people say about Republicans in GD? You are aware this is a Democratic board, and people here often say derogatory things about Republicans...

[eqfan592]

27. Lol, I don't think anybody here gives a damn what bad things you say about him.

It's when you let that mindset get in the way of supporting an investigation that is supported by strong evidence that it becomes an issue.

[DanTex]

28. Well, thanks for your permission.

Darrell Issa is a #$*#*$#* #$&^* #@%^& ^#%$*&^#$&*^ #^@%&*^%^&$# @#%^&^&%@#%^& %^^%#@!!!
And his staff are a bunch of $%$%# $#%$@#@#%^ @#%%&^@# #@%^%$^@##@ ^&%@#%^&@#&^%@#s!!!

And I would hate to find myself allied with people like that, time after time after time after time...

[eqfan592]

29. I don't recall ever saying you needed my...

...or anybody else permission to say such things. And it does suck that the Republicans have tended to be on the correct side of the issue of firearm rights more often than Dems, but that is something we are changing slowly but surely. ;)

[slackmaster]

32. Yes, he's a real piece of work. I think of him every time I hear a Viper car alarm going on and on.

But he's doing yeoman's work in this investigation.

[friendly_iconoclast]

33. Issa *is* a world-class asshole. But even assholes can be correct on occasion...

...and Issa is on the money with this one. Otherwise, not so much.

[Katya Mullethov]

34. The stakes are incredibly high

I wouldn't get too upset with 'em .

[Tejas]

36. You would rather Cummings in his chair?

Did you watch the procedings? He went off on some irrelevant tangent about how banning guns in the US would miraculously make the cartels disappear into thin air.

[gejohnston]

43. In his case, yes he would n/t