NJ Officials say, "Semi-automatic machine gun seized"

[virginia mountainman]

NEWARK — Nearly a month since city police began a crime abatement program, the department has seized 16 weapons, including a semi-automatic machine gun, officials said.

Just one more example of truly, how little some officials, and the MSM know about the subject at hand..

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/07/16_weapons_seized_13_charged_i.html#comments

[geckosfeet]

1. And your point is?

It's the media. What do you expect?

To expect an informed analysis of the topic is naive and idealistic - at best.

The fact that people were arrested on weapons charges however, is somewhat newsworthy.

Link: 16 weapons seized, 13 charged in Newark in month after new program

'Mayor Cory Booker tweeted yesterday that the city’s murder rate dropped 40 percent this June compared to last year. Police could not say if the program affected the murder rate.'

Hopefully their knowledge of statistics is not as abysmal as their use of firearm terminology.

16 'weapons'. Big effing deal.

[Tejas]

39. point appears to be that Detective Hubert Henderson

wouldn't know a machinegun from a washing machine.

[Orrex]

2. Can't dispute your point, but...

Just one more example of truly, how little some officials, and the MSM know about the subject at hand..

The same can be said of just about any subject requiring even a hint of specialized or technical knowledge. The MSM doesn't know shit about chemistry or physics or biology or astronomy, for example. Their general ignorance of firearm-related info is merely symptomatic of the MSM's larger stupidity, alas.

[virginia mountainman]

14. Very very true! nt

[Taitertots]

3. How many people will read this and be too ignorant to understand that it is non-sense? n/t

[geckosfeet]

5. Many many more than will know the difference. Ridicule however, will not help them understand.

[Taitertots]

6. It is hard to phrase it without being condescending

Instead of ignorant I could use:
"Those without knowledge"
"uneducated about firearms"

[geckosfeet]

8. Maybe. But we all can't be knowledgeable about everything. There are many

people who just don't give a hoot about firearms, are not mechanically inclined, write for newspapers, and take dictation from talking heads like it was gospel. It all adds up to the kind of trash we read in the papers every day.

So, if you were reading the financial section, would you be able to call out writers in the same way? I am sure you would if worked in the financial industry.

It's more a statement on the general sloppy state of the media, and that we as individuals need to filter their drek and inform and educate where possible.

OK. Enough silliness. I am off to the range.

[Taitertots]

15. We can't be knowledgeable about everything and we shouldn't report about topics when we are not...

The media is certainly sloppy and it is difficult to remain non-condescending when people believe things that are easily disproved.

Off to the range. :toast: I've got to wait until at least next weekend.

[MineralMan]

20. Here's the deal. Your local media doesn't hire a firearms expert

to report firearms stories. They tell one of their reporters to report the story. That is the reality of news media. What that reporter knows or doesn't know about the technicalities of firearms is not an issue for the media. Some take the time to check their terminology. Most don't. They don't have time to do that. Every newspaper, radio station, and television station is short-staffed already, and people who work there are under pressure to get the story done and out on deadline.

In all technical fields, stuff gets scrambled in that rush. All. It doesn't matter what the story is about. If it is technical, it's going to be scrambled. And you know what? 90% of the people who read, hear, or see the story won't know the difference. That will not change. It simply will not.

Here on DU, RKBA advocates have a good chance to educate people who filter into the Guns forum. Yet, the same weak sauce keeps getting poured over the uninformed people's heads again and again. "It's not a clip, you moron" is not education. It's something else entirely.

[jeepnstein]

42. So the press isn't really held responsible...

for general sloppiness and outright printing wrong information? They can just slop anything out there for public consumption and nobody should say a word? I can see that going over really well in certain other issues. A journalist should at least have the tools and the training to get to the facts. These days what we have in most outlets are shills for this of that special interest. I suppose that's OK with some people as long as their ox isn't getting gored.

[SteveW]

47. Sorry, but your "deal" doesn't sound good...

When the greatest portion of MSM favors and has favored stringent gun-control and gun-bans, they must be up on those things which they wish to ban. And when MSM is aware that the "gun control issue" is a hot-button issue, they can't blunder around with these terms. They have to educamate themselves, or continue to lose credibility, and can be accused of propagandizing.

Disputes over raising the MPG level of autos over the next ten years requires a very sophisticated understanding of the issues at hand. Electing to have major cancer surgery or not is a tough one.

But when on notice that you don't know the damned diff. between full-auto and semi-auto, yet you wish to ban both, MSM's credibility is not only called into play, but it's intellectual honesty is as well.

If you want to BAN/OUTLAW/CRIMINALIZE the possession of an extended magazine, you better not call it a clip. Know your subject!

[MineralMan]

10. In New Jersey or in the Guns forum?

In New Jersey, the number who don't understand the nomenclature of firearms are the vast majority. It's irrelevant to them, and they don't care a whit about it. Here in the Guns Forum on DU, most posters understand the difference. Again, though, it doesn't matter in terms of firearms policy.

These attempts to ridicule a majority of people are doomed to failure. They always are. Most people don't give a damn about the names of types of firearms. Such things are meaningless to them as they think about how they feel about firearms in their community. Not only do they not care, they never even hear the argument that is supposed to inform them.

There are better educational strategies than this.

[MineralMan]

4. Yes, of course. And how do you suppose that

misunderstanding changes anything? It's funny how the complaints about improper terminology used by the media and even police fail to accomplish anything at all to change anything at all. It's sort of like attacking someone here on DU for not knowing the difference between a clip and an detachable magazine. It's irrelevant to the beliefs of both sides of the issue.

In any case, it's very likely that the error in that news story was not made by the police, but by some 20-something working at that newspaper. You could write a letter-to-the-editor and complain about it. It will accomplish nothing to advance your position, though.

Nomenclature is not the issue in this. It never has been. It never will be, except as a means of ridiculing the side that actually makes the decisions. Ridiculing your opponent, especially when your opponent has a strong advantage over you in number, is rarely an effective tool.

It's time for pro-RKBA advocates to drop this silly, unfocused, irrelevant tactic. It will not work. It will never work.

[Cirque du So-What]

13. You are correct; it's an unfocused, irrelevant tactic

Besides, it makes the stickler for detail appear unsympathetic, mean-spirited, anal-retentive & condescending - all piss-poor qualities in a wannabee advocate or spokesperson. If there had been even a word of discussion about the problem of semiautomatic weaponry in the hands of criminals in a city with a history of violent crime...but NAAH! It's more fun to pick apart the fucking article instead of focusing on real issues!

Good strategery ya got goin' there, sport! Preemptively alienate anyone who may be persuaded to your point of view with folderol! :thumbsup:

[one-eyed fat man]

17. Mean-spirited??

"...the problem of semiautomatic weaponry in the hands of criminals in a city with a history of violent crime.

Which you propose to solve by advocating further restrictions on people who are not criminals and have no history of violent crime.

Glad we got THAT cleared up!

[MineralMan]

19. Was that proposed by that poster? I don't think so.

However, it is certainly proposed by many people, almost all of whom are not here on this forum. Every time an RKBA advocate pisses off someone who is either neutral or just somewhat opposed, you lose another battle. Telling people that they have said something they have not said is another failing strategy. Confusing one point of view with another also fails, particularly when it is said in a sarcastic, snarky manner.

Making friends is a good strategy. Snark is not. If you want to make more enemies, snark is the way to go. If you want to tilt the balance away from you, go ahead and attack people for things they did not say.

I'm sorry. I own firearms. I've always owned firearms, at least since I was about 10 years old. I know the nomenclature. I don't want to lose my firearms. So, it pisses me off when RKBA advocates piss off more people every day and convince them to oppose RKBA even more. It threatens my rights.

[one-eyed fat man]

25. You might be right.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=416925&mesg_id=416929

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=352297&mesg_id=352307

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=416925&mesg_id=416938

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=416925&mesg_id=416952

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=352297&mesg_id=352298

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1405612&mesg_id=1406964

Maybe his position has softened?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. Another false strawman on your part

[Cirque du So-What]

29. Well, I contend that the OP itSELF is a straw man argument

So there! Thanks for weighing in with your 'observation.'

[X_Digger]

16. Then you have folks like Sugarman, for whom it's intentional..

"The semi-automatic weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons — anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun — can only increase that chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons." — Josh Sugarman, 1988, Violence Policy Center.

It's called 'framing the debate'. It's just as relevant in second amendment issues as it is in immigration ('illegal alien' v 'undocumented worker'), reproductive choice ('pro-choice' v 'pro-abortion'), or even the budget ('shutdown' v 'essential operations').

If you allow the opposition to set the terms, you're halfway to losing.

[MineralMan]

18. Nobody's setting the terms. Ignorance is setting the terms, and

there is no way to fix that. "Automatic" weapons will keep appearing in the media, no matter what you do. The public does not know the difference between semi-auto and auto weapons, and they don't give a crap about that difference. It's irrelevant to them. Either one discharges bullets rapidly. Whether it take one pull of the trigger or multiple pulls does not matter one whit to anyone who doesn't use firearms on a regular basis.

You're not going to get the opportunity to set these terms, no matter how hard you try. Send a letter to the editor or a news director, and they'll shrug and toss it in the wastebasket or the trash folder. They don't care, because it's irrelevant to the vast majority of their readers. The terminology simply does not matter to anyone but the pro-RKBA folks. The argument fails.

I see it here in this forum all the time, on a different level. Instead of arguing the issue, people are constantly arguing nomenclature. And they're arguing with people for whom the nomenclature is absolutely and totally irrelevant. If we can't even use those arguments here with any success, what do you suppose the chances are with the general population.

New arguments need to be found. Insulting those who question RKBA is not the way to win this. That trick never works. It truly does not.

[TPaine7]

24. I think that when, IIRC, CNN retracted their semi-auto / machine-gun

conflating report on air and publically apologized, it mattered. It mattered to any honest, fence sitting observer of the "assault weapons" debate.

And that would mean that letters, calls, and outrage by knowledgeable people who were outraged by ignorance or dishonesty mattered.

[X_Digger]

31. Ignorance is curable. Stupidity is not.

If you allow ignorance to propogate, and eventually become part of setting policy- whose fault is that?

Ignorance is what led to NJ's idiotic law against using hollow point bullets- even though they're actually safer than FMJ rounds. Do you really want more of that crap?

[aikoaiko]

21. Nomenclature is a big deal because people conflate machine guns with semi-auto actions to advance...

...the cause of limiting civilian access to firearms.

I agree that ridicule is not general useful, but confronting poorly used terms that have an impact on public perceptions is worthy.

[tularetom]

7. You are 100% correct but so fucking what?

We have to realize that probably 75% of Americans just do not give a shit about the difference between automatic weapons, autoloading weapons, "machine guns", "assault rifles", or whatever. This includes probably 99% of politicians and journalists.

While it might be satisfying to ridicule the ignorance of the media it doesn't do jack shit to advance the cause.

[krispos42]

9. Well, I'm reassured now

[geckosfeet]

11. Not far off the mark.

[ileus]

12. What a bunch of morans....and the antis bite hook line and sinker.

[RC]

22. I'm an antis and I know that a semi-automatic machine gun is a contradiction terms

But then almost all guns can be classified as machines.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

23. which guns are not machines . . .?

are only machine guns, machines?

:shrug:

[RC]

28. Zip guns from car antennas?

[ileus]

30. Don't be obtuse...machine gun = full auto....any else isn't a machine gun.

Even the dumbest of the dumb in public know machine gun = full automatic. The article in this case wants to muddy the water so that everyone believes a "machine" gun was "captured"

[Tuesday Afternoon]

32. dude, chill. was supposed to be a little funny, haha. lol --

as in all guns are machines but, not all machines are guns. lame, I know.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

26. The media, the politicians, their lobbyists and other liars.

It's sad and annoying that a journalist would be so inarticulate. Frequently anti-rights politicians and their lobbyists, all with agendas, hoot in favor (or laugh at the ignorance) of these media outlets that do their work for them. It's often impossible to discern the truly ignorant from the willfully ignorant.

I'm sorry if "ignorant" is now politically incorrect but I find a bit of self-comfort in my reply, here, discussing mistakes in vocabulary to use a term in its strict denotative sense. I'm not someone who describes a rude and boorish bastard as "ignorant", regardless of the acceptability of such a reference.

It is rather accepted that one's command of the needed vocabulary to discuss a given topic will serve to frame the precision of the thoughts of the writer/speaker. Those that genuinely seek knowledge will pursue a source and be rewarded according to their efforts. The liars will celebrate when the uninformed lead the ignorant.

Those willing to listen to anything are just sheep. The shepherds are yelling and sheep are repeating, "Guns are baa..aaa..aad." All this from the industry that gave us reality TV. I'm shocked.

:sarcasm:

[spin]

33. Firearms are not rocket science ...

I can understand how a reporter can screw up a story on advanced physics or research into DNA.

I find it difficult to understand how a police department or a reporter can bungle the terminology on a particular firearm.

NEWARK — Nearly a month since city police began a crime abatement program, the department has seized 16 weapons, including a semi-automatic machine gun, officials said.

Thirteen people were arrested on weapons charges during 24 days in June, said police spokesman Detective Hubert Henderson.

Among the weapons confiscated were a Mac-10 semi-automatic pistol and two .45-caliber handguns, he said. Some arrests resulted from community tips, while others from traditional policing, he said.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/07/16_weapons_seized_13_charged_i.html#comments

I suspect the police department reported that a Mac-10 semi-auto pistol was seized and the reporter purposefully decided to enhance the effect by adding the term machine gun. He probably got a pat on the back from his editor and was told, "That's the correct attitude, boy. Good job. Our job is to get all those damn firearms out of civilian hands!"

Why do I suspect this? The article was never corrected. There were plenty of comments that pointed the error out including:

Semi automatic machine gun. Sort of like a giant midget I guess. LOL!!
Maybe it was in the same room as a unicorn because they both only exist in liberals no nothing about guns fantasyland.

***

"Semi-automatic machine gun"?
Isn't that an oxymoron? A machine gun, by definition, cannot possibly be semi-automatic.
Sorry to nitpick, but this simply highlights how ignorant people are (especially the media) about weapons in general.

***

Mr. Dinges,

You have got to be the most gullible, ignorant "journalist" to have ever written a story. Come on, a "semi-automatic machine gun?!?!?" Grow some integrity.

First, the term "machine gun" is an undefined colloquialism, so, you wouldn't use it if you were a real journalist. But, just for you, it is commonly meant to mean a firearm capable of firing more than one round for each pull of the trigger. Second, a semi-automatic firearm is one which fires just one round for each pull of of the trigger. So, which is it? A fully-automatic firearm, or a semi-automatic firearm?

It's bad enough that firearms (rather than the miscreants that misuse them) are demonized. But add to the fact that we have ignorant people like you "reporting the news" about such firearms and NJ is destined to remain in the Dark Ages of "common sense gun control."

Do a little research, then think, THEN write your article. The public would benefit greatly.

What is truly discouraging to me is that if I can't believe anything the media says on a simple to understand subject such as firearms or gun control, how can I trust them on far more complicated stories that involve economics, healthcare or terrorism?

[Hoyt]

34. The point is simple, they confiscated a bunch of guns made to look like "machine guns" so they sell

to those who drool over being able the blast away at a bunch of folks.

Don't for a minute think semi-auto guns aren't just as dangerous as auto weapons. First, there are a lot more of them. Second, many gunners go orgasmic over the things and the thoughts of what they could do with one -- and when that's the reason people buy them, it's a shootout waiting to happen. And there's more.

But gunners like to harp on the fact that reporters don't know the difference between an auto vs. semi; magazine vs. clip; etc. Who cares -- you are just as dead if a bullet hits you. The more of the things we produce and market to those who drool over them, the bigger the problem will be when we have to deal with it.

[friendly_iconoclast]

35. Still with the Harold Hill schtick, Hoyt?

"Ya got trouble-

Ya know, you got trouble-

Right here in River City-

With a capital "T" that rhymes with "G"-

That stands for guns..."

The more of the things we produce and market to those who drool over them, the bigger the problem will be when we have to deal with it.

Do you propose to 'deal' with this 'problem' in the same way that alcohol and drugs were 'dealt' with?

[TPaine7]

36. You are just as dead if killed by a rock as if killed by a grenade... And there are a lot more rocks

And I feel pretty sure that stones have been carved into sex toys (IIRC, archaeologists found evidence that the practice is ancient)--and that people have literally gone orgasmic over them.

Does that mean that rocks are just as dangerous as grenades?

[Hoyt]

37. But people don't obsess over rocks and think/dream/pray of ways to kill people with them.

[Tejas]

38. skull + crushed + murder + rock + Google = yes they do

http://www.bentonville123.com/journal/2011/2/16/murder-in-burgin-valley.html

[lawodevolution]

40. You are a true bigot

Gunners this gunners that. You love to group people and label them with ignorant statements.

[Buzz cook]

41. Behold a semi-auto machine gun

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=238751639


Another

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=239724372


Yet another

http://ohioordnanceworks.com/Firearms/OOWExclusiveFirearms/1918A3_SLR.rif


And another

http://www.gunsamerica.com/988993626/Guns/Rifles/W-Misc-Rifles/Yugo_M53_M_53_MG_42_Semi_Auto_8mm_Belt_Fed_NE.htm


While some people quibble over semantics others would just say "oh one of those".

[Abin Sur]

44. Behold rifles that look like machine guns

None of the weapons pictured are machine guns. Words mean things.

If those are machine guns, then this kit car (a 1985 Fiero with a plastic shell over it) is a Lamborghini:


http://allamericanautomobiles.com/car/33882184.html


BTW, I own Thompson 1927A1 Deluxe Semi-Auto...it's a hoot. The other rifles pictured are currently out of my price range, but I can hope...:-)

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gejohnston]

46. he was more correct

If you remove the speed governor, the Lamborghini can go fast because the engine is the same. The kit car still has the Pontiac engine and drive train. The internal mechanisms in these guns are different enough so that can not be converted to full auto. If they could be converted to full auto as easily as removing a governor from a drive train, then it would still legally be a machine gun under National Firearms Act of 1934. In other words, they have Pontiac engines instead of Lamborghini engines with a governor.

[Abin Sur]

48. Nice guilt by association

Words mean different things to different people.

Oh, good grief...why not call a matchlock a machine gun, then? Let's stick to actual definitions, m'kay?

A more accurate analogy for you would have been a Lamborghini with a speed governor.

Incorrect. Such a car would have every part necessary to be a real Lamborghini, with one additional part which restricts its ability to function.

In the case of these firearms, every one of them has different internal mechanisms which prevent them from functioning as a machine gun. These parts replace the original internal parts....just as in the replicar shown earlier.

Which makes it a pretty good analogy...wouldn't you agree?

[slackmaster]

43. The possibility of being an "Official" has never carried much appeal for me

I'd rather be a Fellow of something.

[derby378]

49. From the old Webster's Dictionary where I used to work...

submachine gun: Any portable automatic or semi-automatic firearm that is designed to be fired from the shoulder or the hip.

Granted, this was an older dictionary from the 1970's, and this particular usage of the term submachine gun is rarely used anymore. Josh Sugarmann of the VPC tried to rebrand these guns as "assault weapons" instead.

That's my take on it. It's an anachronism.

[ManiacJoe]

50. Wow.

I have a hard time believing the definition of "submachinegun" was _ever_ used.

[derby378]

51. Here's something else...

Even in the Oxford English Dictionary, which is supposed to be the codex of lingua Anglica, the definition for the term "machine gun" only mentioned that such a firearm was a "rapid-fire" weapon, which seemed to blur the whole full-auto/semi-auto distinction.

That edition was a few years old, however, so maybe they've had a little time to flesh out the definition a bit more.