Guns, immigration and GOP hypocrisy

[struggle4progress]

By Ruben Navarrette Jr., CNN Contributor
July 14, 2011 3:22 p.m. EDT

... Republicans from states that line the border with Mexico spent much of last year scaring the daylights out of average Americans by convincing them that these areas are awash in spillover violence from the Mexican drug war ...

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has decided to try to clean up Dodge City by requiring gun dealers in California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas to report bulk sales of semi-automatic weapons. That requirement already exists for handgun purchases. If an individual walks into a gun shop on the border and buys two or more guns within a five-day period, the agency wants to know about it.

That makes sense. Some of those are likely headed to Mexico. And if you want to go after drug traffickers, start by taking their guns. If you can seize the drugs, fine. But without guns, the bad guys can't protect themselves or defend their product. So they're out of business.

Who could find fault with this approach by law enforcement? The National Rifle Association, which claims the reporting requirement infringes on the Second Amendment and the right of individuals to bear arms ...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/07/14/navarrette.guns.border/

[RSillsbee]

1. What does this thread have to do w/ either the GOP or immigration?

The same topic has been posted numerous times recently could you not be troubled to check that out before duplicating the topic?

[struggle4progress]

3. Really? Navarrette's op-ed has been posted here before? I searched: do forgive me for missing it

[RSillsbee]

7. Maybe not that particular piece but certainly the topic

Again what does this have to do w/ immigration of the GOP?

TYPO

[MicaelS]

2. This is ass-covering from BATFE in attempt

To divert attention from Operation Fast and Furious. And Navarrette is right on only one thing.

Unfortunately, the Obama administration has no moral authority when it comes to keeping guns out of Mexico.

The ATF, the same agency that is pushing the reporting requirement, is embroiled in a scandal because of an ill-conceived operation that let guns go into Mexico. Operation "Fast and Furious" was supposed to lead U.S. authorities to weapons smugglers by allowing more than 2,000 guns to flow into Mexico. The effort was a disaster, and nearly three-fourths of those weapons are still accounted for.

Oh yes I unrecc'd your post, too.

[struggle4progress]

6. Sorry you don't like Republican hypocrisy pointed out

[petronius]

4. So long as the records are truly purged within a reasonable time (though 2 years seems

a bit long to me) I don't have a huge objection to this rule on RKBA grounds. However, I don't see how it can be effective - what stops a straw buyer from just making a circuit around multiple shops to avoid triggering the reporting requirement? Dealer intuition and common sense -- exactly what the ATF over-ruled in F&F -- strikes me as a much more effective way to notice straw buyers.

I also don't understand why this same info can't be gleaned from NICS checks without putting a burden on shop owners. Can't the FBI run a routine to detect multiple purchase attempts by the same person, regardless of where they occurred? :shrug:

[Katya Mullethov]

8. They dont need the registry so much

as they need more employees and funding to handle the extra paper work it will generate . DHS and TSA have been stealing the spotlight and soaking up the money for far too long

The best part about this is it doesnt really have to do anything in particular as long as everybody looks busy . When it fails to halt the insurgency in Mexico , more will have too be done , and much more money will need to be spent before we can round that corner . So it's time to eat our peas , realize that this is exactly the kind of innovative thinking that is driving our national economic recovery , and give them a blank check !

[spin]

5. How do you feel about Operation Fast & Furious run by the ATF?

If you are not interested in supporting an investigation to find out the details of this fiasco then you are a hypocrite. Possibly as many as 3000 firearms were allowed by the ATF to be bought by straw purchasers who the ATF suspected would smuggle the firearms to Mexico and Honduras.

There will be a long blood trail from these weapons and some of these weapons will stay in our nation and be used to injure or kill our citizens.

Where do you stand on this issue?

[jpak]

10. It proved without a doubt that cartel straw buyers obtain thousands of guns from US dealers

and they are used in murderous violence in Mexico

and the US

yup

[gejohnston]

11. who would not have if not forced to by the BATFE. You missed that part

or is that an inconvenient truth?

[spin]

13. The dealers told the ATF that they had suspicious buyers ,,,

and the ATF instructed the dealers to sell the firearms.

AND THERE ARE ALLEGATIONS THAT THE ATF DIRECTOR COULD WATCH THE SALES ON VIDEO!

ATF Director Could Watch Live Video of Cartel Gun Buys--While Permitting Them to Proceed
Friday, June 17, 2011

(CNSNews.com) - The acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms was able to watch live video surveillance feeds as intermediaries for Mexican drug cartels purchased guns at licensed U.S. firearms dealers for transhipment south of the border--while ATF agents in the field were specificaly ordered not to stop the purchases, intercept the purchasers after they made their deals, or retrieve the guns after they were bought.

***snip***

At a hearing of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee on Wedneday, Chairman Darrel Issa (R-Calif.) released an internal ATF e-mail from April 2010 that shows that Acting ATF Director Kenneth Melson wanted the Web address for hidden cameras located inside Arizona gun stores where the straw purchases were allowed to happen.

“With this information, Acting Director Melson was able to sit at his desk in Washington and himself watch a live feed of straw buyers entering the gun stores and purchasing dozens of AK-47 variants,” said Issa.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/top-atf-official-very-much-weeds-gun-run

All I am asking is that you support an unbiased, non partisan investigation to find our the truth about this matter. If you don't, perhaps you will at least understand why in my opinion you have become a hypocrite.

Be aware that this fiasco could easily have started in the Bush administration.

[DWC]

19. Sold at the direction of the DOJ. Paid for with US tax dollars

Tell me again whose hypocrisy we are talking about?

Semper Fi,

[struggle4progress]

12. Well, you're sure quick to call names, aincha? The gun industry -- from manufacturers

down to the retail outlets -- get a financial benefit from sales to Mexican gangs, and wherever there's a material interest, conscience tends to bend in that direction. As far as anyone can tell, the US is the major source of guns for Mexican gangs: Mexico naturally thinks that's a problem, and maybe we oughta think so too

The gun industry, of course, would prefer if we only grabbed a little straw purchaser now and then, because taking out a little straw purchaser here and there won't have any significant effect on the overall demand. Anything beyond that is going produce shrieks and screams from the gun industry, because their material interests are at stake: the NRA is the industry's lobbying arm, so the NRA is going to oppose anything that could affect sales volume. That's why the NRA opposes any meaningful restrictions on sales from retail outlets near the border

The law enforcement point-of-view is naturally somewhat different: we need to understand the structure of the criminal syndicates, in order to break them up. Just as one can't smash a heroin smuggling ring if one can only go after petty sellers peddling dime bags, one can't smash the organized flow of US weapons into Mexico by grabbing only straw purchasers. It's a common intelligence technique to let stuff move to see where it goes: generals do it in war, police do it when trying to disrupt the drug trade, and so on. The folk who pushed this idea in the ATF were probably long-term professionals influenced by various success stories. The NRA (as the gun industry's lobbyist) will do its best to disrupt any ongoing investigations, while the ATF (as a law enforcement organization) will try to protect its intelligence and whatever progress it has made. Since there are always fuggups, some heads will predictably roll: it's a political fight, carried on with soundbites, which don't necessarily reflect much about the underlying realities

[spin]

14. So let's all join in asking for a serious unbiased and non partisan investigation ...

into this situation.

Politics is the great game but sometimes the playing for gain and power leads to death and destruction.

As I have pointed out these 3000 weapons will leave a long trail of blood. It matters not which side of the gun control issue you stand on, we need to find out the details of how this operation came about and how to avoid similar screw ups in the future.

Be aware that a fair and unbiased investigation might easily show that this program originated under the Bush Administration.

As far as your comment:

"The law enforcement point-of-view is naturally somewhat different: we need to understand the structure of the criminal syndicates, in order to break them up. Just as one can't smash a heroin smuggling ring if one can only go after petty sellers peddling dime bags, one can't smash the organized flow of US weapons into Mexico by grabbing only straw purchasers. It's a common intelligence technique to let stuff move to see where it goes: generals do it in war, police do it when trying to disrupt the drug trade, and so on. The folk who pushed this idea in the ATF were probably long-term professionals influenced by various success stories. The NRA (as the gun industry's lobbyist) will do its best to disrupt any ongoing investigations, while the ATF (as a law enforcement organization) will try to protect its intelligence and whatever progress it has made. Since there are always fuggups, some heads will predictably roll: it's a political fight, carried on with soundbites, which don't necessarily reflect much about the underlying realities "

We have been fighting this War on Drugs since the Nixon administration and yet if I wanted to, I could walk four or five blocks from my home and buy any illegal drug that I desired. The same street dealer could probably supply an illegal firearm for me to purchase if I had the money. If he couldn't, he could easily direct me to someone who could.

We will never win the War on Drugs and the entire effort had no chance of success from the start. In all reality there is an excellent chance that our own government was involved in smuggling drugs into our country in order to finance covert operations in foreign nations.

edited to add further comment

[gejohnston]

15. Actually, not even close to reality.

down to the retail outlets -- get a financial benefit from sales to Mexican gangs, and wherever there's a material interest, conscience tends to bend in that direction. As far as anyone can tell, the US is the major source of guns for Mexican gangs: Mexico naturally thinks that's a problem, and maybe we oughta think so too

No, the gangs have been buying used machine guns and crew serviced weapons through their southern border, Vietnam, China, Israel, and North Korea. That is according to Wikileaks and stratfor.com It is also widely reported in Latin American Media. It is ignored in the US corporate media as well as "progressive" media for the same reason, it conflicts with the preconceived story line. For sources like Think Progress, it is also inconvenient, like Al Qaida not knowing about current federal gun laws like National Firearms Act of 1934.

The gun industry, of course, would prefer if we only grabbed a little straw purchaser now and then, because taking out a little straw purchaser here and there won't have any significant effect on the overall demand. Anything beyond that is going produce shrieks and screams from the gun industry, because their material interests are at stake: the NRA is the industry's lobbying arm, so the NRA is going to oppose anything that could affect sales volume. That's why the NRA opposes any meaningful restrictions on sales from retail outlets near the border

Is the NRA in fact against it, or are simply being told that the NRA is against it? Most of the current regulations are supported by the NRA. This reporting scheme is not meaningful. It is also based on a false premise.

[struggle4progress]

16. horse pucks

[gejohnston]

17. What is? Are you up for some reading homework?

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110209-mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/04/21/112594/cable-guatemalan-military-selling.html

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/04/21/112616/drug-gangs-help-themselves-to.html

http://www.factcheck.org/politics/counting_mexicos_guns.html

http://wilsoncenter.org/news/docs/Goodman%20Update%20on%20US%20Firearms%20to%20Mexico.pdf

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=390473&CategoryId=14091

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,7497626,full.story

[gejohnston]

9. Only on the surface

What seems like hypocrisy or cognitive dissonance on the surface, is simply perception management. Individual Republicans in the border states are not the RNC. They might be members of the RNC, but they don't speak for the RNC. Jan Brewer's mouth trying to stir racism to get SB-1070, which was more about giving business to the private prison industry than anything else, passed. The money bags behind the RNC loves illegal immigration be it from Mexico or Ireland, because it depresses wages. Of course Republicans use xenophobia along with the three Gs for distractions and wedge issues. That is slight of hand 101. Tucker Carlson admitted that the GOP power structure detests the Evangelical base. The Country Club Republicans don't like commoners with guns either any more than some urban liberals do. But I digress.
The Republicans know that they they need to keep rural and blue collar folks from seeing through the fog, and this funding block does that.

To answer your question, the fault I find this approach is that it is theater. For example, I bought three pistols two weeks ago. The dealer sent the form in. Good chance it is still sitting in someones inbox. Do they put the data in a system that looks for these trends? What does BATFE do with the forms? If went to three different places the same day, only Visa would know.
As Wikileaks, stratfor.com and Latin American media outlets pointed out in many articles, the vast majority of guns for the drug cartels enter through the southern border and abroad. These are machine guns and crew serviced weapons that can not be found in any US gun shop, at least without extensive background checks lasting months.
One question I have, how many of these civilian guns going south are really going to otherwise law abiding Mexicans to defend themselves against the gangsters and their bought and paid for police?

[pipoman]

18. No

"And if you want to go after drug traffickers, start by taking their guns"

If you want to go after drug traffickers, start by taking their money. Stop the war on drugs and the problem goes away. As long as there's this:



Gun acquisition is no problem and never will be.

[friendly_iconoclast]

20. Navarrette is endorsing security theater that can be evaded by going on a road trip....

....buying one gun per gun shop/swap meet/gun show. Then repeat at suitable intervals. Straw purchasers will only be out the

cost of gas.


But it certainly will look as if ATF is Doing Something - as long as you don't look too closely....