Should Democrats support GOP-sponsored "Concealed Guns on Campus" laws?

[jpak]

[Cool Logic]

1. Only if they believe in equality under the law.

[petronius]

2. If a person has a legal right to carry a firearm elsewhere, there's no legitimate

reason to exclude campuses. If that's what the law says, then Ds should support it...

[otohara]

3. My Kid Won't Be Going To

any college who supports this.

Fucking insane!

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. No Colorado public universities for your kid, then. It's been legal there for years.

Perhaps you can find some reports of legal CCW permit holders causing problems at CU, CSU, or CSM for us?

We'll be glad to wait.

As an aside:

I'm glad to know that you and your child have enough $ to forgo in-state tuition in order to indulge a fear of inanimate objects.

Oh, yeah- Public universities in Utah, Washington, Alaska, (and soon, Texas) will also be a no-go for you.

[otohara]

8. That's Right

We know the laws in CO and other states that allow this insanity and we've been saving, so you need not worry about our finances.

Sorry, but my kid will not go to a college where guns are allowed.
Ain't gonna happen.

[friendly_iconoclast]

9. I do wish all the best for your kid, but if you think not allowing guns will keep them safe...

I have but two words for you:

Virginia Tech.

Incidently, I'd love to have your response on this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=382537#414604

[otohara]

10. I'd Feel Better About This

if like in Yemen, everyone carried their guns over their shoulders, or around their waist like in the old days, so we can see their guns and runaway.

Like this:

[friendly_iconoclast]

11. Look, you are certainly free to feel as you wish about guns.

The thing is, CCW permit holders just aren't that much of a problem in general.

More specifically, they are far less problematic on the campuses that do allow them than the population as a whole.

[otohara]

14. In General

there are WAY fewer gun related deaths in Japan, where guns are illegal.

Just returned from Japan - Can't tell you how safe I felt knowing that everyday I when I stepped outside and walked amongst thousands of people on the busy streets of Kyoto, and Tokyo at any time of the day or night, the chances are I'd run into a person with a gun is pretty nonexistent. I can't say that about one of our local parks.

You all argue this until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the facts that this country is gun crazy, and we've got the deaths and injuries to prove it.

Forget the death tolls, how about the cost of treating gun related injuries, that run about $100 billion every year. I'm betting the majority of gun injured folks are uninsured, leaving us, the tax payers to foot another bill for risky behavior.

If gun people in America are so fucking responsible, why so many deaths and injuries?

[LAGC]

29. Do you have sources for those claims?

$100 billion in gun-related injuries seems a bit high.

[eqfan592]

31. I dunno, could be a bunch of different socio-economic issues...

...that literally have nothing to do with guns. But no, it's just easier to concentrate on a single implement and harp on that instead of, you know, actually solve the complex problem that is our violent crime issue in this nation.

I hope your children gain better critical thinking skills than you've demonstrated here from whatever school they decide to go to.

[gejohnston]

36. I lived in Japan for over three years

One, it is a soft police state. You do not want to deal with their legal system. Shall we discuss Japan's suicide rate? The number of murder/suicides?

[gejohnston]

48. To expand on my previous answer

Yes Japan is a soft police state, but there is a lot of other factors that make it what it is. Mostly, history and culture. First, individuality is not a valued concept in their society while communal harmony and conformity is. The good part is that there were no riots and looting during the earthquake and melt down. People went to the store, stood in line. When the clerk says, "sorry computer is down, can't accept payment", everyone puts stuff back on shelves and walks out. Old people volunteer to take place of young engineers to try to shut system down, figuring old age is going to take me before radiation poisoning gets too bad. Gun laws make no difference. Oh yeah, national health care, little if any wealth gap, strong unions etc.
On the other hand, we say the squeaky wheel gets the grease, they say the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. You don't question authority. If your niece is a member of Green Peace or Amnesty International, you are not getting a gun license.

Gun loving Switzerland, Norway, and Finland are also "we" societies that are kind of socialist. Even the cities of Switzerland are kind of like Mayberry where kids ride their bikes to the shooting range. Their murder rate is less than Japan's. Unfortunately, Japan and Switzerland both have high suicide rates.

[PavePusher]

13. "runaway"?

Your fear and/or bigotry are duly noted.

As is the hyperbolic response to a reasonable question.

Fear, indeed....

[otohara]

15. You Know What I Fear

guns, because we've got the numbers of gun related deaths and injuries to back-up my fear. There are certain parks I won't frequent, because of gun fear.

I don't particularly like paying for gun related injuries - all those gun related emergency room costs run tax payers $100 billion per year.

[PavePusher]

16. The list of things far riskier than guns is quite lengthy.

You can look it up in the freely available CDC stats.

In fact, you should make such a list, post it here and tell us how many of those things you do/use without nearly the hysteria you evince for firearms in the hands of lawful Citizens.

[otohara]

17. Just Because, I Don't Like Guns

doesn't make for hysteria.
Unless you're stereotyping me a typical hysterical woman.

I'm done with risky behavior, I haven't had a McDonald's hamburger in 11 years, and stopped smoking years ago. Staying healthy and safe are tops on my list. Nor would I don't want to bankrupt my family by taking unnecessary risks. Guns are risky and you just never know what might happen with a gun, one wrong move, and suddenly you're life as you knew it, is over... depending on situation.

How many children die each year in this country from gun accidents?

[TheWraith]

19. Having an irrational terror of something is, by definition, hysterical.

"Guns are risky and you just never know what might happen with a gun, one wrong move, and suddenly you're life as you knew it, is over... depending on situation."

So you're too afraid of guns to be around them, where accidents kill a few hundred people a year, and people legally carrying concealed far fewer than that. But I bet you still drive, which kills in excess of 40,000 per year. Fearing guns is like being afraid to fly--it's panic based on public perception, not on realistic risk assessments.

"How many children die each year in this country from gun accidents?"

Statistically speaking, about as many as are murdered by their parents. And a small percentage of the number that die from falls, or car accidents, or drowning, or fires.

[Katya Mullethov]

22. " one wrong move, and suddenly"

Sounds more like a oil field torpedo than a modern firearm . Or moreso , the empty nitro tins , in the winter .

http://www.logwell.com/tales/menu/index.html interesting stories . One interesting factoid I dont think they touch on about shooting oil wells is that John Wilkes Booth ruined several as a torpedo man before he found his true calling as an actor and ninja assassin .

They flipped a torpedo truck down here last week . Or in the modern vernacular ,a truck filled with consumables for a well perforating gun . So the explosives truck is up side down , and EVERY cop , EMS , DPS and volunteer fireman showed up . The ATF however , was conspicuously absent and the consensus was that they were all back at HQ getting their story straight .

[PavePusher]

20. "Just Because, I Don't Like Guns", without evidence to justify the "feeling"....

is exactly what hysteria is.

Please note that hysteria is not a phenomenon reserved to females (nor did I make any indication of gender-frequency), although it may indicate more assumption on your part.

"How many children die each year in this country from gun accidents?" Again, the stat is easily looked up via the CDC. I think the actual numbers will suprise you. Home swimming pools are far more dangerous than firearms in the home, in terms of accidents.

[GreenStormCloud]

21. About 50 children in the U.S. die annually from gun accidents.

Are you surprised that the number is so low? I bet you believed the VPC hype. You can check the CDC numbers yourself: http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe

I used the age for a child as up to 12 years old, as the word "child" is normally used to mean a pre-puberty human. The VPC used a child as anybody up to 24 years old, and used deliberate shootings as well as accidents to get their numbers.

There are many things that annually accidently kill more children than guns. Accidental poisoning kills about 85, drowning kills about 690.

[holdencaufield]

38. Clearly...

There should be a background check and a waiting period before being allowed to purchase a water pistol.

And SuperSoakers should be banned as "assault weapons"

[gejohnston]

35. According to the latest UN and INTERPOL data,

their 2010 murder rate was 4.0 per hundred thousand 2010. Ours was five per hundred thousand. How about one of those Caribbean gun free paradises? Oh wait:

Jamaica-60
Belize-33
Costa Rica-11
Cuba-5.5
Haiti-22
Trinidad and Tobago-37
Sait Kitts and Nevis-35
Bahamas-22
Sait Vincent and the Grenadines-18
Barbados-17
Antigua and Barbuda-8.5

[PavePusher]

12. I hope you don't let them go anywhere else in public in Colorado.

What, pray tell, is so significant about a college when it comes to legal firearms?

[otohara]

18. Love How Everyone Check Where I Live

FYI, the neighborhood I live in was ranked the safest neighborhood in Denver, and 37th in the country. Bunch of laid back liberals - only the drunks across the street are gun owners in my blocks - they way they scream at each other in the wee hours, for hours, I expect to hear an ambulance one of these days. They were so disruptive the other night, but I was afraid to go over there to ask them to give it a rest, because I know they have guns and are drunk.

[gejohnston]

23. How sure are you?

You are talking Colorado. How do you know they are gun owners? Because they are drunks? How do you know the "laid back liberals" are not? Even if they are not, do they use recreational drugs? If so, each one contributes more to gun and gang violence than all of us combined.

[PavePusher]

25. Your profile is public.

Surely you have nothing to hide, amIrite?

Surely you don't mind if people know you live in a respectable area, amIrite?

Surely we have the right, indeed obligation, to judge if you should be allowed various freedoms, oops, privileges, based on a multitude of variables to determine your trustworthiness, amIrite?

[otohara]

28. Surely Not

Nothing to hide, just observing that here in the gun forum, people are more likely to check where you're from and then attack based on gun laws, ownership, universities, etc...

Grrrrrrr.....I'm going back to GD and GDP, you all don't respect people who don't like guns.

Guns and Group Think forum....

[PavePusher]

32. "attack", no. Present factual evidence based on regional laws and customs, yes.

Question and examine and critique your claims, yes.

Don't agree and debate are now equal to "don't respect", and thus you are going to complain and leave?

Fucking seriously?

Present some actual fact and evidence to support your assertions. Bring your "A" game. Behave like an adult. We respect plenty of people who don't agree with us. Just don't expect to have your assertions taken as gospel.

That is how debate, and adulthood, work.

[PavePusher]

26. P.S. Call the police for your disruptive neighbors.

That's what they are there for, amIrite?

[gejohnston]

37. So what if your kid decides to try out for the school shooting team?

or is good enough shot to go to the Olympics as a pistol shooter?

[beevul]

30. Yor kidd would be much safer at say...Virginia Tech, right? N/T

[rrneck]

4. Rah! Rah! Rah!

Democrats, Democrats, sis boom bah! I want to be a popular cheerleader too!

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

5. Democrats should support laws which combat crime while not imiting the freedom of law abiding people

Democrats should choose liberty over "feel good" laws which do little to actually prevent crime.

[ileus]

6. We should always support expansion of basic gun (civil) rights freedoms.

Always....we can't give in to fear of objects.

[baldguy]

24. No way. Too many Democrats cowtow to RW causes too often as it is.

[oneshooter]

27. But you would NEVER do that, would you. n/t

[baldguy]

33. All anti-gun control arguments begin and end with RW talking points.

They are meant to instill fear, create false divisions, sew distrust of govt at all levels, and exasperate the very problems they purport to offer solutions for.

NONE of these are qualities are compatible with the objectives of the Democratic Party in the 21st century, or democracy in general.

[eqfan592]

34. Wrong, on virtually every level.

In fact, your post is built more on projection than anything else, given that you are someone who parrots "facts" from one of the most RW orgs in existence, the Brady campaign. Indeed, the qualities you speak of AREN'T compatible with the objectives of the Democratic Party in the 21st century, or democracy in general. So I would suggest you abandon them ASAP. ;)

[baldguy]

39. If the Brady Campaign is so RW how come the GOP and NRA hate it so much?

[gejohnston]

40. The NRA for obvious reasons, since everyone at Brady

are registered Republicans, I doubt the GOP hates their own people. Even though the NRA has a lot of right wingers on the board, they do endorse Dems and some good lefties. The NRA endorsed Bernie Sanders over the Republican last time around.

[baldguy]

41. "Everybody" at the Brady Campaign are Republicans?

Richard Aborn is a Republican? Michael Barnes is a Republican? Apart from the Bradys themselves, the only other Republican involved in the leadership of the Brady Campaign the the current head Paul Helmke.

The fact is you can't name one Republican involved in the national party or currently holding national office who dares go against the NRA. The NRA and the GOP are joined at the hip, politically.

As for Sanders, the NRA gave him an F for his voting record. Why do you think they'd endorse him then? Because they needed a token to point to and say "See? We don't just endorse Republicans!" Sanders certainly didn't advertise such dubious support in the last election.

[gejohnston]

43. Last time I checked, Sanders had a C

From what I understand, Sander's view is that it should up to the local populace. That is to say, if the people in DC vote to in a referendum to be like Vermont and Wyoming, it would work for him. If Vermont decided to be like DC, that would work for him too.
Have to look those guys up. Have not found anything on Barnes yet.

Richard Aborn most likely is, in 2009 he ran for Manhattan DA and lost to Democrat Cy Vance Jr, son of Jimmy Carter's Secretary of State. This being a two party system, you get the picture.

Go against the NRA, or will of the people? The NRA does not stuff ballot boxes, they do have a powerful grassroots machine. Grassroots is the power of We the People. The Brady Campaign has no grassroots support of any kind. They are as astroturf as astroturf gets. They get money from a few foundations and billionaires to run a propaganda machine. Most of their money goes to salaries. Helmke makes more than Obama for a lot less work.

[friendly_iconoclast]

44. Republican supporters of gun control:

John McCain

William Bennett

Rudolph Giuliani

William Safire

Dick Cheney

Richard M. Nixon

Ronald Reagan

Michael Bloomberg

William Brady

Sarah Brady

Paul Helmke


I wouldn't trust any of these fuckers as far as I could throw them. I can't wait to hear why they aren't 'real' Republicans...

[baldguy]

45. These are your current GOP politicians who oppose the NRA? Half of them are retied or dead, even.

Bloomberg isn't even a Republican anymore. He got fed up with their bullshit about many things, guns being the least of it.

McCain's been on every side of every issue in his long & convoluted (and really silly) political career, but as of TODAY the NRA loves him.

And just who the hell is William Brady? Sarah's husband - the one who got shot in the head by a crazy Republican gun nut - is named Jim.

[friendly_iconoclast]

47. An even better reason for us non-Republicans to endeavor to gain influence in the NRA

Of course, you will then be less able to crank up the associational fallacy to a white heat- but that's a small price I'm

willing to pay...

[gejohnston]

49. OK Jim, and was Hinkley a Republican or just a nut?

IIRC, he was a movie nut, not a gun nut. The letter by the name does not mean shit. Bloomburg still defines success as how much money and toys you inherit, and still believes in supply side economics. He is still a plutocrat all the way. Moving from R to I does not make him a liberal or progressive.

[Upton]

46. The NRA also endorsed Howard Dean 8 consecutive times..

I'd say that's much more than "token"..

It's pretty simple, support the 2nd Amemdment, you'll be looked upon favorably by the NRA,...no matter what the party affiliation may be..

[beevul]

52. Wrong much?

"The fact is you can't name one Republican involved in the national party or currently holding national office who dares go against the NRA. The NRA and the GOP are joined at the hip, politically."

Lugar.


And his assistant mark helmke. Brother of paul helmke.

[DWC]

50. Nothing has created more new NRA members

than the Brady Campain.

The NRA hates Brady like kids hate candy.

Semper Fi,

[friendly_iconoclast]

51. No shit! The Brady Campaign seems incapable of understanding "cui bono".

Of course, some might claim that they understand it quite well...

[ileus]

42. 36 - 24 freedom is winning the day!