Aurora Colorado Police and Their License to Kill

[mikeb302000]

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_18582683">The Denver Post reports

It was the fifth fatal shooting by Aurora officers this year. Officers were cleared by district attorneys in the previous four cases.

Life must be good out there in Aurora. Can you imagine if someone reported such a thing to the Chicago or Baltimore police. The incident was little more than a squabble over lost keys and a greedy guy who wanted to make a couple quick bucks. But in Aurora, the quick-drawing cops come to the rescue even over such mundane matters.

Then, as often happens, the good-samaritan cop found himself facing THAT decision. Did he do the right thing? No, I don't think so. The scammin' key-finder got defensive, of course, he got physical, he supposedly "reached for a knife," and then he got dead.

Under-trained and ill-prepared cops are to blame for the frequency of these incidents in which petty criminals end up dead. Something could be done about it, on TTAG I read http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/07/robert-farago/question-of-the-day-how-should-the-police-practice-shooting/">an interesting discussion about how much training cops should have. Here's my contribution.

About the training, I say every work day, one hour. Some of that can be practicing techniques like someone said above and some of it can be actual shooting.

Just like anyone else who wants to carry a gun, they need to be practiced and qualified, even more so since, as cops, that’s their job.

What's your opinion? Shouldn't the police invest more time in training their people than they do in covering up their mistakes?

http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/">(cross posted at Mikeb302000)

Please leave a comment.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

1. Unrec for continuous blog flogging

[rl6214]

2. +1

[RSillsbee]

12. +2 nt

[gejohnston]

3. awww East Colfax

Memories of Lowary AFB, my school after basic training. The first street I learned, because the 1st Sgt and the Chief told us to stay off.

I'll wait for detailed information, which I will not be privy to and won't be looking for, to make a real comment. I try not to base opinions on short articles.0

[rrneck]

4. More firearms training?

Hell, he shot the bad guy three times. I don't think he needs more firearms training. Policies and procedures training maybe. I'm no cop but where was his backup?

You're pretty good at blogspam. Are you expanding into the exciting world of pointless blogspam?

Unrec natch.

[mikeb302000]

5. part of proper training

is knowing when not to use the gun. Your sarcastically pointing out that the cop was a good shot is pretty foolish when the question is whether it was murder or not.

Cops need more training and screening, as do CCW permit holders and all the rest of the fearful and paranoid gun owners out there.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. Police training levels are the highest they have ever been and yet there seem to be more of these

incidents. Perhaps the cause lies elsewhere.

The vast majority of gun owners are neither fearful nor paranoid, unlike the vast majority of the anti rights people.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starboard Tack]

14. Do you look in the mirror when you say things backwards?

Have you any idea how absurd that sounds? Why the fuck would anyone carry a gun if he weren't afraid of something. If I were afraid, I'd definitely carry a gun.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. From your username and presuming you are a sailor...

then you should understand the need for safety equipment even if one does not expect to need it *today*. No different for a weapon.

[Starboard Tack]

16. Lots of difference. Guns are not safety equipment. They are used for killing.

I carry lots of safety equipment aboard at all times. I do not consider a canon safety equipment. I would consider carrying certain weaponry aboard when cruising in pirate infested waters, but I choose to avoid those parts of the world. There's plenty water out here. Mexico has very strict laws about bringing guns in, as do most countries. Not worth the hassle.
There is a difference between safety tools and offensive tools, like swords and shields. Your choice. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Not too many folks have been beaten to death by a shield.

[burrfoot]

17. Would you say...

that it is never the situation that ensuring your own safety- i.e. using a gun as safety equipment- happens by way of killing someone else?

It would be an incredibly unfortunate situation, there is no doubt about that. My understanding of your post- particularly the subject line- is that you believe that those two things are mutually exclusive- i.e., it is never appropriate to kill someone.

Am I understanding that correctly? Because if that is the case- and you are certainly entitled to that opinion- that would indicate a fundamental difference in opinion that likely will never be resolved.

While I happen to believe differently, I certainly can understand and respect that line of reasoning.

[Starboard Tack]

20. You would be correct. Killing someone intentionally is never justified except on the battlefield

Having said that, I do not preclude the justifiable shooting of someone in self defense, provided the intent is not to kill, but rather stop an attacker.

[burrfoot]

22. You make a valid point.

I wasn't being specific enough there, and I agree with you that intentional killing; other than on the battlefield, is never appropriate. If, however, in the process of justifiable self defense, the/an aggressor(s) die, I see that as an extremely unfortunate but acceptable outcome.

I feel like on this forum, we frequently see something along the lines of "but guns are used to kill people" (not pointing fingers at you, this is more of a general observation) or "guns are specifically made for killing;" and the impression is that those things are inherently, always, bad.

Unfortunate, yes. But it always seems to me that those people are stating an obvious truth. "Guns are made to kill."

Yep.

They are.

And?

:shrug:

Just food for thought. Thanks for the reasonable exchange of ideas. :toast:

[Starboard Tack]

24. Cheers!

[oneshooter]

23. And if the attacker dies as a result what then. Call it murder? n/t

[Starboard Tack]

25. Murder is intentional and premeditated with malice aforethought

You figure it out.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. Review the definition of murder...it does not include self defense

[Starboard Tack]

32. I never said it did, unless the defender intends to kill

Self defense infers an intention to defend oneself. If that results in the death of the attacker, then a court may decide that the killing was justifiable or intentional. Empty a clip into someone who wielded a knife or fist and you may have a serious problem.

[X_Digger]

33. Lethal force is lethal force.

There is no legal or moral concept that requires one to meet lethal violence with the same or lower means.

If a reasonable person would fear grievous bodily harm or death, lethal force is warranted.

It's called disparity of force.

A senior citizen would be reasonable to fear bodily harm or death when an 18 year old kid raises a fist and gives reason to be believe that he's going to beat him.

A healthy young man would have the same reasonable fear when facing two or more similarly fit people armed with knives with the same intent.

A young woman would have the same reasonable fear when facing a singlem larger man armed with nothing but his hands and the same intent.

[Starboard Tack]

34. Good luck with that thinking

[X_Digger]

35. I don't need luck, I have law.

Texas Penal Code - Section 9.32. Deadly Force In Defense Of Person

"A person is justified in using deadly force against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery."

http://www.ksat.com/news/19719696/detail.html

Bakery Clerk Shoots Robber
Robber With Knife Shot Twice, Killed
....
Police said they do not plan to charge the employee who shot the suspect, saying that he was defending his co-worker.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6465040.html

Police: Man kills attempted carjacker in NE Houston

Investigators said the shooter, who has not been identified because no charges have been filed against him, shot Darryl Milton Franklin Jr., 37, after he and his wife saw Franklin breaking into cars at the complex in the 1100 block of Langwick about 6:15 a.m. Saturday, police said.

The shooter and his wife saw the attack and again called police. They again approached Franklin, who attacked the man and began fighting with him. The man's wife hit Franklin several times to get him away from her husband.

Police said the husband then pulled out a pistol and fired at least once, hitting Franklin in the chest.

The man and his wife called for medical help and performed first aid on Franklin until paramedics arrived. Franklin was taken to a local hospital, where he died.

Here's one in SC--

http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2011/jul/26/petite-clerk-shoots-kills-250-pound-hotel-robber/

A small woman in her 50s working as a hotel clerk at a Columbia-area Days Inn shot and killed a robber "more than double her size" Monday morning, Richland County Sheriff Leon Lott said.

The suspect, Vincent Carson, 43, of Orangeburg, had held a knife to her throat, put the knife down and was apparently going to tie her up and sexually assault her, Lott said. "He was a career criminal on a crime spree and would not have stopped except for what happened this morning," Lott said.

Delaware-

http://www.parighttobeararms.com/selfdefensenews.html

Del. Woman Fatally Shoots Ex-Husband

NEW CASTLE, Del. (AP) — New Castle County police say a woman shot and killed her ex-husband after he broke into her home and beat her.

Fifty-seven-year-old Gregory Thompson of New Castle was found dead at the unidentified woman’s home.

Pennsylvania-

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_546285.html

Ingram store clerk cleared in shooting

A 7-Eleven clerk was justified in shooting a knife-wielding robber on Christmas, Allegheny County District Attorney Stephen A. Zappala Jr. said Monday.

Kaelin Weber, 24, shot Lawrence Davis, 20, at the Ingram convenience store after Davis jumped the counter and slashed him.

"The actions of the clerk, including the use of a firearm, were justified and therefore the clerk will not face any criminal charges related to this incident," a release from Zappala's office stated.

Care to retract?


eta: Oh look, we have one right here.. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x443457

[Starboard Tack]

36. As I said, good luck, if the cops or DA think you were justified you'll be just fine.

Just another day in the life
Carry the fifty

[X_Digger]

38. So you admit that your sarcastic 'good luck with that' was bullshit?

You might want to actually do some research on a subject before bloviating on about it.

[Starboard Tack]

39. Sarcastic? Moi?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. Actually that depends where you are

I live in the desert southwest in a very remote area. Rattlesnakes are everywhere. Firearms with snake shot are required safety equipment, especially in the spring.

I have lived in Washington DC during the bad days (not that today is that much better). My late wife double tapped a local goblin who had invaded our home and at that point had declared "I'm going to shoot you sucka". We considered firearms safety equipment during that tour and had the good sense never to live in the district again.

When I ride to campus I normally have a firearm, a good first aid kit, water, emergency blanket and some food bars. An inconvenient flat could strand me and it could be a while, even overnight, before helps arrives. Until then I am on my own and need said safety equipment to be reasonably assured of survival.

[Starboard Tack]

21. I have no issues with shooting snakes or goblins, though I thought the latter were fictional

My daughter lives in DC. I'll have to ask her about them. She did have a bed bug problem in NYC though, but I don't think she had to shoot them. Anyway, what does it all have to do with toting a handgun in public? The goblin invaded your house and you live in a remote desert area. I can see a good 12 gauge handling any problems you might encounter. But I'd have some anti-venom on hand too.

[X_Digger]

26. Still chewing that cud, I see..

Care to spit it out? What moral precept are you trying to convey without saying so?

The 'gunz is fer killin' schtick is old.

Care to chime in here?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x292384

[mikeb302000]

27. thanks for your refreshing and sensible comment.

around here it's a rarity.

[Starboard Tack]

31. Grazie, altrettanto!

[gejohnston]

7. I will say this

I am surprised that you read truth about guns.

[mikeb302000]

28. why would that surprise you

that is a great gun blog, unlike most others.

[rrneck]

11. Um, yeah. Reread the post.

I guess you couldn't see it for all that spam.

[pipoman]

9. Blog spam unrec. eom

[DWC]

10. Life is simple

The LEO represents and is the armed extension of society. If you fail to comply with all orders from LEOs, you are putting your life at risk. If those orders are improper or illegal then that is what lawyers and judges are for.

LEOs do not carry firearms to protect the public. LEOs carry firearms to protect themselves while conducting their extremely dangerous job.

In the recent video, the conduct of the CCW holder in Ohio when abused by a bad LEO is a perfect example of proper response.

Semper Fi,

[SteveM]

13. BOOM blogalogga-logga, BOOM blogalogga-logga BOOM-BOOM-B-BOOM...nt

[Kennah]

19. Five fatal shootings in 7 months for a city of 325K seems high ...

... but crime is cyclical, among other things. It's possible that an organized criminal gang is now operating in the area, and they've had a lot of fatal contact with the police.

On the face of it, there's nothing in this particular incident that raises up a red flag to me. If someone can point it out, I'm listening.

[mikeb302000]

29. What? an unarmed man shot to death by cops

no red flags for you on that? I say unarmed because that flaky story about "reaching for a knife" sounds like bullshit.

[Kennah]

37. "he punched the officer several times and tried to reach for a knife"

The deceased was certainly not a non-combatant, and being close enough to punch the cop means that a knife is just like a gun--lethal.

While I'm sure it's possible the knife is all part of a story and that a throwdown piece was tossed on the ground, doesn't seem that's the likely explanation for all seven shootings.

I get much more twisted in knots when I see and hear actual dashboard camera audio and video showing a cop threatening to execute someone.